Hi motorers!

I've got an Ultirk rear swaybar, the heavyduty one that is fully adjustable and which includes adjustable droplinks.

I'd like to know what should be the lenght of the droplinks when the swaybat os adjusted to around 3/4 of its hardest setting...??

Or, what is the stock droplinks' lenght ?

Thanks for any help!!

 

I've got no idea of the correct length, but what you're really looking for is position of the sway bar. The links should be adjusted so that the swaybar is parallel to the ground when the car is on it's wheels. Unless you're trying to preload the swaybar. In that case there'd be some trickery involved.

 

The rear bar's stock orientation is angled up slightly...to avoid contact with other components. However, as SpunkytheTuna wrote, parallel at ride height is correct. From this orientation you can experiment with different settings based on the track or other setup assumptions.

Once everything else is adjusted - if you have adjustable coilovers - set endlink length on perfectly level ground.

Don, your 'stuff' is in transit

 

Thanks for the quick answers!

So basically, the swaybar should sits parallel to the ground. I'll set it that way!

 

Ken @ MINI Mania told me the exact same thing!

"The ideal position for the sway bar is to have the ends of the sway bar parallel to the ground. The length of the drop links to accomplish this will vary depending on whether your car is stock height or lowered."

I thought it might help other member searching for this in the future!

 

can someone educate me.. whats the point of aftermarket droplinks? suppose they're stiffer and meant to accompany a stiffer swaybar? sorry if this is a dumb thing to ask..

 

They are adjustable and provide a better flexibility to set-up your car.

I really don't know about stock one's strenght, but MINI Mania ones look really strong and well-built.

Found on another website :

"Left & right hand threaded rodends allow for easy length adjustment to eliminate swaybar preload. They are intended to take preload out of the sways, but the way some of the folks on the list where using them was to preload the sways so they come into effect more quickly."

 

lol sorry still dont understand how they do this.. i might reserach on google or something about endlinks in general.. thanks anyway..

 

droplinks are what links your swaybar to the suspension arms.

If you get adjustable ones, you can adjust you links according to your swaybar. You can also "preload" your swaybar.

I got the adjustable droplinks with my swaybar, but once it will be adjusted correctly, I won't play with this anymore.

Basically, it's just one more think that you can adjust on your suspension. I'd rather get some adjustable rear control arms! lol

 

Yikes, this again? ...
I could not think of one reason anyone would want or need to "preload" a swaybar for the street or the track, unless you were just doing roundy-rounds

Don't preload swaybars.
If someone here can enlighten me, I'm always open to learning new tricks.

 

Adj. end links also let you use odd adjustment positions on an adjustable bar without pre-loading the bar. Ex. You have a stiff 3 hole bar, adjusted to the closest two holes is to stiff and adjusted to the middle two holes is not stiff enough. Solution is, one in closest hole and one in middle hole but if you don't adjust the end link length on ONE end you will get a pre-load. This is FINE tuning and probably only needed on the very stiffest bars, like Helix's 22.5 mm or H-Sports Race only bar.

 

I'm not sure about the parallel to the ground thing with the swaybar arms, though it might be close enough not to even bring this up.
I would be more concentrated with getting the trailing arm, drop links and swaybar arms all as close to 90 degrees of each other. This might make the swaybar arms closer to parallel with the trailing arms.

 

True,
And when it comes down to it, you only really need one adjustable droplink per swaybar for basic street tuning.

 

Woke up this moring realizing that I don't think I agree with myself on this..
I'll just put it in the back of meb's head and see what he comes up with ...

 

Setting the ends of the swaybars horizontal is the best orientation to run with in most cases. Horizontal means that the centerline axis that runs thru the center of the hole in the swaybar end must also run thru the center of the bar as it passes thru the bushing. I explain the orientation this way becasue many bars have funky bends - those two points are the only two that need to line up.

The reason? The twist in the bar will be equal on both sides...the twist clockwise will equal to the twist counterclockwise when looking down the length of the torque tube portion of the swaybar (straight part). Or written another way, right and left side will twist equally but in different directions. Now, equal twist assumes a perfectly controlled environment; flat road with no asymetric loads anywhere. Since this type of environment does not exist, this is the next best thing. Pre-loading a bar will cause one side to twist more than the other.

Endlinks are a pet project of mine lately. Most heim joint endlinks do not have the proper amount of articulation to work with the movement required in most suspension systems - unless the suspension systems are extremely stiff. Typical heim joints offer 22 degrees of articulation whereas the stock units provide I think 55 degress - and the Mini's stock front end, I'm told by an OEM endlink manufacturer, requires endlinks capable of 51 degrees of articulation. Just have a look at how this endlink must move...03 - 06 endlinks attach to the damper body whereas earlier model's endlinks attach to the lower spring perch - up front.

I've been in touch with an Engineer who manufactures adjustable OEM type endlinks. Onasled and I went to Lime Rock Memorial Day weekend to touch and feel theses. The look great, feel great, but are twice the weight of an Alta for example. I know of one NAM member who tried these, unfortunately with my suggestion, and was not happy for reasons I'll keep off the boards at this time...or he can chime in. I believe he was not given the correct links but we've not talked in depth. This new fangled endlink's length is supposed to be custom fitted to custom ride heights and I think that was perhaps at least one of the problems. I do not have these...I still have the stock links up front and the heim joint type that came with my Webb rear bar - no issues in the back on public roads. Watkins Glen is coming up fast, however.

Endlink length must be determined using many criteria; available space, degree of articulation required, and, orientation in a vertical axis. Last first. Endlinks in theory do not need to be hyper strong components becasue they should be working in tension, not shear. When endlinks are are not vertical, they do not transmit load to the swaybar effectively - not straight up and down - and are subject to greater shear loads. Then we get into a game where we increse the size of the bar to overcome a less effective endlink orientation and then we need a stronger endlink and then a stronger bar begins to eliminate the independentness in the suspension...it gets wierd real quick. A slanted orientation also exposes other components - bushings - to shear forces and these will potentially wear faster. And as I noted in my reply above, if the strongest swaybar setting requires the endlink to be positioned at a really severe angle, its effect may be less than that of one in which the endlink is more vertical. I emailed Randy Webb regarding a slider type mechanism for the lower endlink attachment point so that the endlink could be adjusted in a vertical orientation no matter the swaybar adjustment. And to be clear, vertical means the center line axis of the endlink...vertical from side view and vertical from front or back view. Available space as the suspension moves with alter the ideal - life is a compromise. Basically, as Onasled wrote, at rest, a horizontal bar with a perfectly upright endlink creates a 90 degree angle between the bar end and the endlink. This orientation allows to most effective endlink to bar leverage, zero intitial shear, and equal twist. This is an ideal theoretical relationship. Educated folk should always work from the metahpysical to the ideal in an effort to determine the practical. Theoretical ideals determine practical opportunty by highlighting compromise.

Last, adjustable endlinks give you the opportunity to work with complicated setups. Corner balancing requires the use of slightly different length endlinks. Pre-loading a bar for a circular track might be another reason - but not on public roads or most roads courses as Onasled wrote. And again, if you shorten the endlink length - bar ends not horizontal but equal in their orientation - the bar will come on-line faster. If you lengthen the endlink, it will come on-line slower. Why bother? Well, if you have everything else dialed in but need a hair more understeer or oversteer or need to add more traction to the driving wheels, you can perform the above adjustment. Just keep in mind, how this really works depends upon the endlink's available leverage; if you shorten the endlink and expect it to come on-line faster, but in doing so orient the endlink at an extreme angle, it may come on-line slower than if it were horizontal. We're not working with purpose built cars, so you have to find 'your' sweet spot which is determined by your selcetion of components and other adjustments.

Endlinks are indeed very important components. The stock endlinks have a lot of articulation and I feel they are strong enough to be used with slightly lowered set-ups (1" or less). Lowering will potentially place more shear force on the stock endlinks. If you plan to lower your car an inch or less and do not plan to corner balance your car, stick with the stock endlinks. My opinion of course. If you plan to really get involved with tracking your car, perform a few rudimentary exercises; remove your springs (BOTH!) from the front end for example and with the car on jack stands, use another hydraulic lift to articulate the suspension from full droop to full compression so you can see all the relationships. DO NOT DO THIS WITH THE SPRINGS IN PLACE OR YOU'LL LIFT THE CAR OFF THE JACK STANDS...no, I did not do this but I know it will happen.

 

Not a quick answer DarkMiniCooperS and not confined to the rear, but a couple of alternate views, to get a true idea of suspension movements in a static environment the struts should be in place without the springs. For a look at camber effects in the range of travel, attach a magnetic torpedo level to the rotor and watch the bubble; the front struts are definitely needed for this examination. Also, in order to view sway bar action the struts have to be in place to anchor the drop links.

For most of us looking for a cursory approach, just remove the wheels while the vehicle is on stands. If you don’t have two jacks, one side (outer ball joint bolt at the front, trailing arm in the rear) should be set on a pedestal at approximate ride height under load before jacking the other. At the point where the vehicle is lifted off the stands from elevating one side is only representative of a little above static load and does not reflect full compression, but it’s still enough to get a good idea of overall movement and the effect on the opposing side. Full compression with the struts & springs in place is achieved during ballistic movements under road operation.

As far as adjusting the drop links to unload the sway bar, I found that on my fixed ride height suspension with slightly stiffer springs than stock, the uneven load was minimal (given my measurements with only one axle set at a time) negating any substantial benefit from adjustability for that purpose. I would have predicted a greater disparity but I didn’t see it on my vehicle.

Whether or not the rear sway bar will contact the trailing arm, when set at parallel to ground using adjustable end links, depends on the end shape and length of sway bar arm. In practice, the pivot points of the trailing arm and the sway bar are different, each acting upon the other in relation to their arm end arc of travel when tied together with the link. Each drop link/bar arm angle less than 90 degrees introduces shear forces on the link and creates tension on the bar arm instead of torsion along the bar's center axis (although most of it ineffectual at the onset). Close (because that's all you'll get with most bars) to parallel with the ground is a good compromise.

Now for more stuff DarkMiniCooperS didn’t ask for. The front bar relationship is not as visually apparent. My anatomical analogies are usually not very understandable but I’ll try anyway. Put the left hand in front of you and make a C with the index and thumb; put the right hand in front with the index finger forming a hook and place the tip of the index finger on the pad of the left hand thumb (those that can articulate the first joint of the index finger will get a closer representation of the bar shape). The left hand C represents the fixed relationship of the front lower strut’s mounting point of the drop link (index finger) and the drop link & bar end mount (thumb pad). The proximal phalange/metacarpal joint of the right index finger represents the pivot point of the sway bar and the tip of the right index finger is the bar end. Lower the right forearm while keeping the hand in line, this represents lowering the vehicle which brings the bar pivot point down with it. Notice the change in orientation of the right finger hook; in order to achieve the original position the left hand C has to open by lowering the thumb, thus representing lengthening of the front drop link. The front sway bar is an odd creature with no right angles to make eye-balling easy. I have one in front of me mounted on the sub frame removed from the vehicle so I have good vantage point. The easiest way to describe the middle of the arc is that the flat end of the sway bar is vertical with the ground and the drop link bolt horizontal.

 

...Yes! While I was on an appointment I suddenly thought...struts in place without the springs. I cannot remember everything. My other car has double wishbones front and rear, and, the swaybar links attach to the lower control arms in the front and rear. So the springs and dampers can be removed for this test on this car. Sorry, I'll edit the above.

 

DarkMiniCooperS, my best advice to you is to return the Ultrik swaybar and droplinks and buy the 22mm Alta bar, H-sport, etc. Do not install the bar or else they wont let you return it!

I made the mistake last summer of buying the Ultrik bar from Mini Mania and it has been causing problems ever since. The drop links wouldnt stay in the right place no matter what you tried, the bar didnt fit right, the bushings are loud, and the back end of my car rattles.

I dont want to mention any names , but I have talked to a couple of very popular Mini mechanics (they are on NAM.com also) about my bar and they both strongly recommended buying a new different rear sway bar ASAP.

During the autocross at MOTD 2006, my droplink snapped in half on my first run, so I was furious that day and I ordered a new Alta Rear sway bar and bought some new stock droplinks.

 

...decided to delete my previous message.

But, other thoughts that I've inlcuded here in other related threads; pre-loading a swaybar or adjusting torque resistance asymetrically may work for some tracks from a handling perspective, but will definately have a deleterious affect on braking as one side resists twisting more than the other. The left front wheel and the right rear wheel or vise versa will be either loaded or unloaded with an asymteric setup. Not fun in the braking zone.

In addition, and related, braking forces on a bar who's ends are set horizontal tend to keep endlinks in a more vertical position. If the endlinks are too long or too short, the bar ends will move farther from vertical during braking. This will place more shear load on the end links.

 

What's all this about sway bar parallel to the ground ..???


Just happen to come across this photo of a Formula Ford I believe. Shows top view of rear suspension. Find the swaybar..

 

Hi Onasled - There is a reason, and I am guilty of doing it myself. On a car without threaded spring perches, you can preload sway bars to get a poor mans corner balance. I know it far less than optimal, and will unduly stress some components and not give linear resonse, but it looks good on a scale!
Wes

 

The two light grey rods (endlinks in the horizontal plane) with sperical bearings connected to the cams at one end and to the swaybar at the other.

looks like the same setup under my wife's Odyssey Greg

 

Finally got around to dialing out all the preload from my swaybars... My, MY what a difference it made in what I'd consider "my" highly tuned suspension. Made a huge difference...

I installed the adjustable end-links, dropped the car and settled the suspension, put ballast equal to my weight in the driver's seat and then adjusted away... Amazing how different the initial setting (equal lengths during install) was from the final setting.

 

What kind of springs do you have?

 

H&R right now...