I know that this has been addressed to some degree in the past, but I would like some clarification. I am interested in purchasing the H-Sport Competition front (25.5mm)/rear (27mm) sway package. It seems that the general concensus is that installing the front sway makes the car tend to understeer more than if only the upgraded rear sway was installed, but is it really better to only install the rear?

I guess I'm just trying to figure whether or not its worth spending just a few more dollars to get the front sway bar as well. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks

 

I believe the competition setup is supposed to go together as a pair. depending on your current set up, a 27mm on the rear with out a stiffer front will be way too stiff and oversteer alot. Some cars wit a 22mm and stock front will oversteer a good bit.

 

H-sport comp bars are hollow, so their 27mm is equivalent to a... ummm... smaller solid bar (I think 22mm).

 

The Comp rear bar (on soft setting) will still allow the MCS to understeer when used with the stock front bar. That's what I run. The front bar has a much more involved install as well.

 

...... I have one and i like it a lot.....the car is very flat and I can dial in under/over as I like.... the car is about neutral now and that is how I like it...... Waylen at waymotorworks drove mine and really liked the handling very much...

I just lucked out.... the down side to the front bar is that the install is a bit expensive...so the bar is a few $s but the install is not....

 

thanks for the clarification.

 

It really depends on your use patterns. If you are mostly a street driver that only occasionally or never does High Performance Driving Events (HPDE) etc, then just get the rear bar - if you plan to thrash your MINI regularly then get the front bar as well. If you do SCCA autox the front bar will take you out of Stock class (GS) and into Street Touring Extreme class (STX).

I have the H-Sport competition set and really like it. I had to have some grinding done on the underbody for the 27mm rear bar to not rub under load - this happens with just some MINIs. I autox my car about 2X a month from March thru October and my wife does as well, plus occasional HPDE stuff. I think the front bar allows for more grip in the corners. I usually run the front bar soft and the rear bar in the middle. I have run both of them on the full stiff setting as well but find that I then need to run my shocks softer for optimal grip.

 

...a larger front bar alone will lift the inside front wheel...this may be countered by a larger rear bar. Pwerful rear drive cars usually have problems with putting power down beyond mid corner. One of the solutions is a stronger front bar. The reverse is true for a front wheel drive car.

 

I've always said that a front bar is not a great idea for street driving. It can get you in trouble awfully quick.

 

How so?

 

The stock MINI front swaybar is stiff enough for street use.
There is inherent understeer with the stock suspension parts.

A larger and stiffer rear sway bar would help to reduce understeer.
A larger and stiffer than stock front sway bar would tend to increase understeer for normal street use.

Hence for most of us we tend to leave the front sway bar stock and modify only the rear sway bar (having one that is adjustable is a plus). Less understeer would be helpful since neutral steering is easier to keep under control when pushing your MINI.

 

Well, as we all most likely know, with a bigger front bar the Mini will certainly 'push' more in cornering. This can be neutralized by adding the rear H-sport at the stiffest setting. That setting is not really even stiff enough to bring the car as neutral as it would have been with the stock front bar and the rear comp bar at middle setting. 'If' I were doing this (again) I would now get the front H-sport along with their new even stiffer rear bar.
Anyway, with the above you have just set up a very flat car that 'might' do 'OK' on the track where road conditions are consistent. What I mean by this is that every corner is one that you have been around. No surprise turns, no intersections, no driveways, no sand patches, no kids on bikes, and most of the time no animals. So all inputs on a race track are smooth and there is a lot of room for turn in and track out.
On the street you don't have this. How many times have you been going around a corner hot and ..OOPpss, that dump truck coming the other way just made the road real narrow and you need to tuck the car in quickly to avoid him. Or heavy rains or snow have left puddles or sand deposits right at the apex. How about that big caddy that just doesn't seem to stop until his hood ornament is halfway across the lane you are in.
All of these instances are times when we have to do a quick maneuver to avoid a collision. Doing so in a car set up so flat will usually just send you into the woods.
The thought of having a real firm and flat handling sports car is what most think of as the ultimate goal. We tend to emulate the race cars we see and tend to get caught up in all the mods that are out there to seemingly achieve this. Fact is, the guys on the track are not just going out and buying stiff swaybars as that's not how they make the car flat. And even if they do it's to complement their other mods, and even then these upgraded parts get adjusted for each and every track in each and every weather condition

It's all fun and nothing is wrong with wanting to set your car up this way. But if you do, just don't think that now you have a real good handling machine and you can now pick up the speed on the street. The fact is that with every suspension mod, the driver also need an upgrade, like retuning the ECU in the motor so it can 'manage' the motor mods, the drivers brain also needs to be re-tuned so he can manage the suspension upgrades.

OK, that was long winded.... off the soapbox...

There is more to this then my simplified explanation.

 

The real focus should be on wheel rates. A given set of tires can handle a given amount of wheel rate. Wheel rate is a function of suspension geometry - how effective it is...its mechanical advantage if you will. If the strut assembly were sitting directly on the tire's center line, 100% of the damping force could be applied to the contact patch - and so it is with swaybars. But since these assemblies attach to control arms at some distance from the tire's center line, their damping force is LESS. You need to know the configuration of the mini's geometry; motion ratio, and spring force. The formula is very straight forward.

The point here is that swaybar bar selection can be sort of random...in a way we know that a 2"x4" will work in certain types of construction; we don't know the actual load and fiber strength, but we accept a 2"x4"'s ubiquity and apply it in like fashion.

However, knowing a car's natural resonance will help determine what range of spring rate to use. Then we need to select dampers capable of working with the springs and other desires, and then, we select a swaybar based upon fine tuning or how much additional incrimental wheel rate is needed. Passenger cars are typically over-bared - too much swaybar - but this is a compromise; spring and damping rates need to be relatively soft for road going fare. So, swaybars are used to add the addition wheel rate required to achieve a desired handling character.

Huge bars can over-tax tires, especially in adverse or emergency conditions - like Onasled pointed out. Just keep in mind that these components change the proportion, AND, rate of weight transfer. Proportion is one thing, and rate is another...these can be nearly exclusive of one another.

Go here and take a look. http://www.swayaway.com/Suspension%20Worksheet.htm

 

It is true about a huge front swaybar being able to overwhelm springs. Bigger is not always better - with suspension geometry there are lots of variables.

The original question related to the H-Sport competition bar set.

The front bar in this set has two settings soft = +16% Firm = +27% over stock. The matched rearbar has the following: Soft = +226% Middle = +294% Firm = +383% over stock rates.

My contention is that this set works well. My application is autox, but I have seen no negatives for street driving with it either. I have tested this over the last two + years trying different settings and combinations of settings, having others drive my car, taking notes, using worksheets to document results & settings. I think the car has better grip with this setup. For how this setup works on the track I defer to Onasled.

 

dpayne1,

I wasn't disputing your set-up, hope you didn't read that in my post. Just clarifying a few points for the un-initiated.

The over-all point is springs will affect the bulk of handling character and therefore what swaybar size actually works. In other words, what works for you may not work well at all for me.

 

Got it! Thanks. After hearing that, I think that I am going with the H-Sport Comp bar on the softest setting. Now I just have to find one...