You've missed the point and misrepresented what I said. None of the pics you've posted above are of MINIs. I was asking if the strut towers on MINIs moved and if anyone had measured that movement.

 

Incorrect. I don't know Andy, but I've read his posts. I recall that he used to post performance data for his tests the likes of which it would be nice to see from vendors actually marketing products and making claims about them.

And to be clear and thwart the continued misrepresentation of what I have posted, under this topic I never claimed that the MINI does not need a strut tower brace. I simply asked for data on the movement of the strut towers, since the burden of proof is on he who asserts the positive. Interesting that the defensiveness so quickly extended to your posting that I had posted something that I had not. It's more interesting that more people aren't asking the same question I did. And after all these posts still no data on MINI strut tower movement has been posted.

There seems to be a strong bias here against engineers and anyone who asks for verifiable proof of a claim. However, I recognize that this is a vendor-sponsored site, so ultimately it's my account that will be under threat from this discussion.

 

No, I completely understand what you are saying. Thing is, no one can figure out why you are saying it. You are talking to many people who have experience with a brace, and giving no indication that you have any whatsoever. You want data, numbers, etc. etc. Well, this is a difficult mod to put numbers to, but I can tell you that it allowed me to go through turns at higher speeds. That's the number that is important.

Obviously you missed the point I was trying to make. The pictured cars are very expensive, and very well engineered by people who get paid a lot more than we do, I'd wager. Point is, even on a stiff car going into a turn, you will have flex. It will be worse on the MINI than some of those sports cars because it's a tall car (above the frame) and you will have torque. It may not flex a lot, but even a small change, one that is hard to measure, will be amplified over the distance of the suspension. This is physics. Anything you can do to stiffen the frame will help handling.

The point I was trying to make, which you missed, is that strut tower braces must work, or these cars would not have them. The challenge cars have them. The reasons most cars do not come with these equipped is a)cost and b) it makes the ride harsher.

You have repeatedly demanded that data be provided on the effectiveness. However, it seems you've been around long enough to understand that it wouldn't matter if we put up data or not. Some people will believe us, and some will just say "You are a vendor, you lie" so really there's no point to numbers here.

With this kind of product, as with many, the only real value that matters is the value to the customer. Bottom line is if we make a product that is of good quality and our customers find it effective, they will say so. Those are the people that other customers will ultimately look to for a value analysis. If you don't want to try one, that's fine. You really aren't offering up anything worthwile to either camp. If you'd like the chance to try one out and see for yourself the difference, then we'll be glad to help.

And if you are reall stuck on getting some numbers, well, I'll see what I can do.

 

I'm interested for my MC convertible if you make one. Can it fit if you simply create a different bar using your current end plates?

I will first be trying a Forge Motorsport bar that is coming from an eBay auction. This is one of the brands that is reported to be effective. Forge claims it will fit a Cooper, but so many people report fitment problems with bars of any type that it will probably come down to the tolerances on my particular car.

 

We will look into that option . I had a Forge bar and it was very well made with solid end plates . Be carefull when you mount it that the bolt and nuts are situated so the flat part faces up givign you the most clearance. I saw one car that used the Forge and he dimpled his hood ( cooper S ) only because the nut was left with a corner pointing up. If you have them flat you should have no problem. If i am not clear enough with my deiscription of the " nutt issue " feel free to pm me.

Randy
m7 Tuning

 

Ohh boy....

Everyone else from M7 is here so I will put my $2 in.

The best uppgrade for your MCC would be the M7-USS, giving you
much less flex and cowl shake, basically solve the handling problems in your
convertible.

peter
Team m7
562-608-8123

 

I am already planning to do the M7-USS in the next couple of months. From all the reports so far, I am very much looking forward to it.

By the way, as far as a strut bar for the Cooper, I happen to already have a modified battery cover. This is one decision you'd have to make, whether you would try to clear the battery or require a modified cover.

 

Alright, since we want numbers, I went out this morning and got some numbers. I undid all of my extra bracing, the USS and the STB. I then set the car on the ground and measured the distance between the edges of the STB plates. I got 38 6/8".



And then I put a jack under the left front jack point, and cranked the car up. This would load the car up approximately in the same fashion as a hard turn. Even if it's not exact, the point is to show that the frame, stiff as it is, still will deflect as weigh is transfered. I measured again, and got a 1/8" frame deflection:



I then put the jack stand under it, and put the USS and STB back on with the car preloaded, which I think really helps the effectiveness of the braces, and lowered the car. Measured again, and we're at 38 5/8". Brilliant!

 

As a vendor, you have a vested interest in promoting your own products, and I simply don't believe those numbers, since you measured them yourself. I want independently-verified testing done by six different testing agencies before I can accept that your products are indeed enhancing performance, but I don't want the vendor to pay those agencies, since that may cause bias in the results, and I refuse to do any testing myself.

Seriously, though, it's nice to see quantifiable figures and all, but I think we all know when something works and when it doesn't. To be honest, I'm quite surprised that the difference is only 1/8" under no stress and 1/4" under stress - frankly, it feels like the STB and USS is doing much more.

 

Haha! See? I knew it!

It really depends on where the pivot point of the defelction is. A 1/8" defelction close to the pivot pint could be 2"-2" at the wheels. Not saying that is is, just that it's possible. And it's very likely that the stress I put on the frame is not as much as you would find in a hard turn. But at least someone measured something.

 

Excellent! Now all that cool handling stuff that all STB customers have experienced and reported can be regarded as true. We'll all sleep better tonight.



(I still need more rear sway bar, though!)

 

And more cowbell.

 

6/8?

 

Are you laughing because they didn't simplify it?

 

I simply asked if anyone had measured strut tower movement on a MINI while under load, such as in a turn. Why would you be so adamant about opposing the idea of people asking for data that you would repeatedly post against the very idea of wanting data?
As would any critical thinker buying a product with the expectation of it working.
I'll have to try that one for the products I help to engineer--tell he boss that I'm not going to provide data because it's too difficult.
So you say, but why not back it up with some data showing the strut tower brace actually reducing strut tower movement?
"I can tell you that it allowed me to go through turns at higher speeds" is not a number at all.
You actually didn't make that point at all. Re-read your own post. However, your attempt at confusing the issue is pretty transparent. The forward part of the MINI's chassis might or might not be more rigid than those of those other cars simply by virtue of its design. The degree of stiffness inherent in the chassis design ultimately supercedes engineering attempts to mitigate chassis flex in compensating for a more flexible design.
There's something ironic about being lectured about physics by someone who refuses to provide data demonstrating an aspect of physics as applied to the MINI but yet insists that a product he peddles improves the physics of the car.
Extremely flawed logic on your part and the epitome of unscientific. Are you sure you don't want to rethink the claim that that is the point you were trying to make? If not, I'm glad I supposedly missed it.
Now you're presenting another excuse for not presenting the data. All I originally asked for was data showing that the strut towers moved in relation to each other. As someone who peddles a product meant to reduce supposed strut tower movement, if you had simply provided before and after numbers I would have considered that when deciding whether or not to buy a strut tower brace.
You might also sell fine under-car neon lighting, but that does not reduce supposed strut tower movement even if it makes buyers feel better about their cars.
Laughable. Analysis is exactly that for which I've been asking.
I might if you could properly show data demonstrating the need.
Projection on your part. I have only asked for data on strut tower movement, and you have only
a) not provided any and
b) argued against the very idea of providing any as if it's taboo.
"Stuck getting some numbers" reveals a disdain for putting real analysis behind your product.
Not sure the jack test is valid. How about measurements of strut tower movement while the car is in a hard turn at a few different particular speeds--both with and without the brace?

 

Since i am a believer in the KISS method,how about you purchase the bar and if not happy with it send it back.I'm sure M-7 would be happy to accomondate you in this exercise.Oh by the way if you are not familar with the abbreivation KISS it means keep it simple stupid.Q

 

I know, I originally had 38.75, and then 3/4, but figured I'd keep it all in 8ths.

 

Not sure? How very scientific of you. However, the "jack test" show that if you load one side of the suspension and unloads the other, there is frame deflection. The STB is meant to stop or at least limit frame deflection. I preloaded the STB, and held the frame in deflection, or in tension, and it makes for a tighter vehicle. Do you really need me to spell out the physics for you, since you seem to hold to your engineering position so hard? I wouldn't want to insult you.

I'm not adamantly opposed to gathering the data. I have no problem with data. I have a degree in physics and data is a wonderful thing for me. Maybe it's an engineer thing, but I have a problem with redundant efforts. I can tell you all day that the frame and suspension will deflect under load, and it's very true, and you can do many different tests to prove it to yourself, and listen to many people who have STB's installed and say it helps, and even try one out. All this is valid. And yet you want us to rig up a test to give you hard numbers, which aren't going to remain true to every vehicle anyway, so they'd really be soft numbers.

I for one see no reason to reprove something that can more easily be proven by adding it to your car and trying it out. It's a well utilized technology. I know what you are saying, that perhaps the MINI was designed well enough to go without. I get that, but I also get the need for consumer comfort and cost savings. So while the STB is NOT a necessary addition, it is frequently a welcome one.

What's laughable is that I am probably the biggest proponent of putting analysis behind product development. Visit our webiste and browse around, I think you'll find it interesting. I work day in and day out with a cadre of engineers, so I suppose I shouldn't be surprised by this.

Oh, and one more thing, in Physics we measure speed with numbers.

 

I'm sure you mean you don't know of very many mass produced vehicles that have strut tower braces. Common mistake, I've made it before too.

Even my Honda Element has a factory strut tower brace. It's becoming quite common.

 

Well I just went thru this thread and counted 11 different owners that have realized positive results with a variety of Strut Tower Braces.That to me is the most important number , the amount if satisfied owners not the amount of tower deflection. Keep in mind this thread really wasn't about handling improvements with a STB you ,Mcs2004,turned it into that with a blatant thread hijack. With the number of posts you have you should know better. In any event satisfied mini owners is really the only number that matters no matter what the slide rule says
You are still avoiding my offer of showing you on YOUR car that they work . If you won't make it to the dragon from Mass I will be in Conn in dec. Lowell isn't that far I'll come to you Is it the money ? Maybe $300 isn't interesting enough. Lets make it $400 I am sure I can tell the difference on YOUR car between having a bar and not. If you are so sure that they are un necessary then it should be easy money for you.

Randy
m7 tuning

 

Yes, that's what I meant to type. Thanks for the correction!

 

Yet here you've been measuring it in verbiage.

 

And you in semantics.

 

That would be a difficult measurement to make... I'm sure they do flex to some degree. Unibody cars can always benefit from added structure support.
The important question is "how do you drive your car". For "normal" use and some spirited runs... The factory setup is more than adequate. For those that really push their cars and want the most percise handling... than a strut bar seems to make sense..

 

This is precisely the point I was trying to make. The STB is a performance mod, and has never been represented as anything but. Many high performance vehicles, like those pictured, include STB's because they allow the car to be pushed further than a car without, like a stock MINI.

Thanks.