I cannot remember, nor could I find an accurate value for how toe changes as camber changes for the front end.

Specifically, if toe is set at 1/32" in and camber set at 1.50 degrees negative, what might toe be if camber is adjusted to 2/2.5 degrees negative.

I'm preparing a street/track set-up on paper now. I beleive that an optimal camber setting for a DE event will result in more toe out than I'll like when returning camber from 2/2.5 degrees negative to 1.5 degrees negative...too much toe out for the street for my driving venue.

Most of my commuting is on the highway. It doesn't take big negative camber or toe out values to begin to rip tires apart on the highway. 60K per year.

 

Which camber plates? It will depend on the angle the sliders in the camber plates are set at for changes.

Randy

 

the toe in the front will change as you change camber. As camber is set more negative, toe goes more "in". (tie rod ends stay fixed, but you are inclining the strut more inwards as camber is negg"ed). I forget who first found this out for the mini, but the result could be problematic. If you set negative camber with your plates, then set toe to zero, for example.
that is fine until you use the c plate slider to re-set camber to stock. Without also re-setting toe, you would have toe out.

What Meb is asking for is the amount of change; that I don't have data on.

 

Meb,
The amount that toe changes with camber change will vary depending on the suspension upgrades you have.

One option is to think about what limits you want on camber and have an alignment shop do one setting first and mark those with paint or nail polish then do the other camber setting and see how much toe has changed then adjust the toe to your specs and mark that with paint. Now you have two sets of marks, one for street and the other for track.

Another option is to pick a setting for camber and toe that you can use for both street and track. True it is a compromise but it all depends how much you track or street drive your MINI.

I have the following alignment used for street driving 80-90% of the time and I do autocross monthly, drive on the track about 4 times yearly and do 1 or 2 driving school events yearly.

Front
Toe 1/16" out
Camber -2.3 degrees
Rear
Toe zero
camber -1.6 degrees

Suspension
Bilstein PSS9 coilovers
RDR front camber plates
H-sport rear lower control arms

I have found the single alignment setting approach easy and relatively trouble free both for track use and for street driving. Biggest problem for track use is it never seems I have enough negative camber but it really depends on the track and how you drive. Biggest problem for street driving is the harsh ride quality and tire wear (not too excessive). To reduce the bumpy ride I switched from H-sport lowering springs and stock shocks to PSS9s and set the dampening to softest for street use- this helps but it is still very firm.

 

Sorry to hijack your thread, MEB... but,

--Minihune--

Could you please describe just how harsh your setup is compared to a stock MCS? I am seriously considering the PSS9's and RDR's for my '06 MCS (with the STX autocross class being the potential target). But I am concerned about ruining the streetability and (relatively) supple ride quality that I have now. I don't want to increase the impact harshness to the point it crashes over small bumps or start a bunch of dash rattles from overt stiffness.

(disclaimer: I KNOW the stock Dunlop runflats don't help this ride quality issue in any case, and already have plans to switch to Goodyear F1 GS-D3's as soon as I can afford some lightweight wheels.)
.

 

meb
I don't think you will find a value for toe change as camber changes, because it is vehicle specific. It depends on the hight of the attaching point of the tie rod in relation to the lower pivot point. Some cars have the tie rods attaching half way up the strut, while others attach in the area of the steering knuckle.
One thing is for sure {with a rear steer car such as the Mini} as camber is decreased, so is toe in.
I agree with minihune. Find a compromize camber setting that will work for both types of driving & then set toe.
With driving 60,000 miles a year you might want to lean towards the street side.
By the way 60,000 a year? Is that a misprint? What would keep you on the road that much? How do you have time for anything else?

 

meb
I forgot to mention that the amount of toe change in relation to camber change is also determined by the length of the steering arm that the outer tie rod attaches to. A longer steering arm will affect toe more as camber changes than would a shorter steering arm.
Again this is just to say that this value is vehicle specific.

 

Great info!

jlm - That's the relationship I was hoping for, but visually I didn't think this was possible - I still haven't been under this car. More negative camber = more toe out - I'm assuming you when you wrote toe goes more negative you meant toe out?. I need to stick with 1.5 degrees negative and a hair toe in for the street. If I begin there, and then simply have the alignment shop re-set the camber at 2.5 degrees negative, I'll know that toe value I can use for DE events. But also, I'll know that if I return the camber to 1.5 the toe will be where I need it to be - in a perfect world. I'll try this and see if it really works, if everything actually returns to baseline accurately.

Randy, I'll probably purchase the Megan/Pilo setup. There is incredible value here. So, I don't know what that tells you...? Camber adjustment is integrated into this kit...I don't know if any of us has enough subtle experience with this kit...perhaps you do???

Minihune/BLIZZ - I will not lower the car more than 10mm, or slightly less than a 1/2". I really want to keep some travel in there, and, maintain some geometry subtlties that I'm probably hyper focused on without due cause... I understand the relationships in general, I just have zero experience with the Mini to date.

60K per year. My job. The Mini is a company car. I've been told to "LEAVE THIS ONE ALONE". (accountant) One of the reasons I've waited so long to play. (Boss) however, said be very very discrete. "If I was allowed to buy the EVO, I wouldn't have this problem..."(me)

Back again...

BLIZZ, you suggest that more negative camber = more toe in??? If this is true, I misunderstood jlm and must, as I thought, pick one setting. Double drat!

 

Coopernicus,
I will send you a PM with details. The stock suspension with runflats is not as stiff as my MCS with PSS9, non runflats in 215/45-17 (Potenza S-03), and autocross alignment.

Over smooth roads my suspension is OK, still a little bumpy. On a rough road it can be unpleasant for passengers. I could minimize this with tires with higher profile and using a smaller diameter rim, lowering air pressure a bit, and going to a more stock alignment. Currently I live with the harshness for daily driving but I seek the path of least roughness whenever I go out for a drive.

If I hit a moderate bump or pothole by accident I really feel it. I learn to never drive that way again.

 

When the tie rod attaches to the rear of the strut or steering knuckle in relation to the center of the wheel/hub, the wheel will toe in as camber is decreased. If the outer tie rod attaches to the front of the strut or steering knuckle, the wheel will toe out as camber is decreased.

 

for the mini, toe goes in as camber goes more negative.
(I edited my earlier post)

 

One way to help visualise toe change is to think of the point that the outer tie rod end attaches to the steering arm as being a fixed point. As the strut moves it will rotate in a axis around that point, and as the strut turns, so turns the wheel.
Thus the direction of rotation depends on where the steering arm attaches to the knuckle.
By the way the early Corvettes had two attaching points on each steering arm, so the owner could decide how quick a steering responce they wanted. This was a way of changing the length of the steering arm. The outer location would produce a slower steering responce & the inner location was a quicker steering responce. Of course you had to change both sides to be the same and reset toe in.

 

Which, of course is the exact opposite of what you want when adding more
negative camber for AutoX or the track. This is why it is necessary to either
know how many turns to adjust the tie rods or mark them or index them in
some other way.

 

You know, my experience has always been, more negative camber added = more toe in...but then all the cars I've played with position the tie rods behind the steering knuckle - never had any other set up as a contrast...and therefore never really focused on this. AsI wrote in my opening thread, I didn't think any other relationship was possible. I did not posses the experience to really know the answer. Damn it, I'm not perfect afterall

...but as Peter wrote, not what I was looking for afterall. Poor tire wear or a bunch of alignments...

Thank you all. I will at some point soon plot the toe/camber curves for 1.5 and 2.5 degrees negative. I'll include final ride heights measured from the jack points as well.

 

meb

We spoke the other day but I forgot where you ended up with your settings. Did you find a way to adjust back and forth with an acceptable level of toe for the street? If not, what are your compromise settings?

I'm installing the Megans, drop links and rear camber links this weekend and have an alignment/corner balance appointment next week Wednesday. Need to figure out where I want the car set before then.

 

The compromise is turning out to be just that, so here goes;

Cross weights with my 170lbs and a half tank of fuel

FL 866 FR 829

RL 581 RR 528

Roughly 50% cross weight with pretty good side to side deviation - about 50lbs.

Front camber +/- 1.75 - 2 degrees negative - this will not appear the same left to right on the notches on top of the dampers because the car is corner balanced; the ride heights are different but the camber angle will be the same.

Front toe - a nats hair toe in - I would prefer an 1/8" toe out, but I'll chew up tires during my mostly highway commute.

Rear camber 1.25 degrees negative +/-. I asked for 1 degree - they added a little more. What's a mother to do?

Rear toe 1/16" in

They also lowered my car more than I did, again, what's a mother to do? It looks lowered, but not ricer lowered.

I'm still playing with damper settings, but the first track day was bitterly cold, so no point in trying anything but driving better. I will be installing the BBK this weekend. These will affect the damper settings, but I don't know how yet. I was at 9 from full hard on the track front and rear and 12 from full hard for the road front and rear...13 in the rear may be better, but I also have stock swaybars. The Webb bar is looking very nice...

Make sure you always begin your damper settings from full hard; your adjustments will be more accurate. I've always performed my adjustments this way. If you perform from full soft, your trying to increase hydraulic pressure within the damper whereas fromm full hard hydraulic pressure is released from the shime stacks. I can give you a more technical reasoning, but this is how race prep shops adjust...and, this was further confirmed by Todd (TCE) in a conversation with me yesterday...I was asking him about his setup theories. He's smart man with lots of practical experience.

Basically, I do not have all the pieces to make any real valuable final adjustments...the bar is a big missing link, no punn

If you want to see the car at LRP, go to http://www.pdadrivingschool.com/ and click on the Blue group under april 8th. There were two minis, mine has black wheels. There is one picture of the car going thru the only left-hander; You can see the orientation of the wheels and the car - stock swaybars. There are other pics too. # is 001 - my magnetic numbers fell off, hence the tape.

 

Michael....those are great photos...looks like you were having fun!
I am curious....you mentioned that the ride height was different from side to side because of corner balancing. What was your final ride height side to side & {most important to me} front to back.? {measured at the jack points as I feel this is most accurate measuring point}.
Your car looks great!

 

BLIZZ,

I dunno. I knew what they were, but the shop changed the overall ride height before corner balancing the car. I'll be under the car this weekend. My garage is pretty level, so I'll report back here on Monday...or you can call me. I'll PM you with my phone number if you're working on the car this weekend.

 

The main reason I didn't get that Birkin I almost bought ...

 

Looks like the Vette almost bought the Birkin too.

 

This thread title is 2 letters off from a good joke. Ok, well 3 letters off

Camber(L) Toe Curve


Sorry there I go acting like a kid again.

 

golden Child, huh? Sorry, you might have to explain that one.

Onasled, looks like he got all sorts of crossed up by the looks of the skid marks...I think he spun to the inside - left side went around clockwise...check the front wheels out. Hopefully the Vette went wide to avoid him.

By the way, I can see from the photo that a bit more negative camber will help that front outside wheel...on my car

 

Here

 

This is where I ended up:

Cross weights with my 165lbs and a 3/4 tank of fuel

FL 871 FR 831

RL 549 RR 511

Total empty weight (3/4 tank of fuel without rear seat) 2588 pounds

50/50 cross weight

Front camber -1.8 degrees
Front toe 0
Rear camber -1.6 degrees
Rear toe 0

 

The cross weights are spot on. Zero toe, depending on other compliances, can be troublesome, but not a big deal. Why so much rear camber?

Other than that, you made out waaaaay better than I did. Mine is back in the shop today.