I know that this has been mentioned in several other threads but nothing specifically and I suspect this thread will makes things much easier for others.

I have H-Sport springs (front/rear) but do not have camber plates. I understand that without the plates or control arms and end links I cannot adjust the camber at either end.

After installing the springs we estimated the camber at -0.5 degrees front and -1.6 degrees rear.

I'm going to have an alignment done this week and would like to know suggested toe and caster settings for my daily driver that is also autocrossed and occasionally tracked.

Thanks folks.

 

Just came to the forum to start a new thread, but my question is so close to adis daddy's that I thought maybe best to combine with this thread.

My question is the same, except that I have an '05 MCS with JCW suspension. Do I remember hearing correctly that some camber adjustment is possible in the "05s?

 

There is lots of very specific info about alignment specs.

In your case, leave the toe stock at the back end and run 1/8" toe out up front. Understand, as you may, that a toe out setting up front affects braking performance.

 

Affects braking in a negative manner? Why would you want to do anything that would negatively affect your braking?

 

Compromises are aplenty when setting up a production based front wheel drive car...there are compromises in the F1 design/build process too.

Wheels that are toed out exhibit forces that do not cancel one another out; draw two sets of wheels from above, one set toed in and one set toed out. Then, draw a line thru the center of each wheel - make sure you extend these lines say, what might be 25' in front of the car. In the toed out example, the lines running thru the wheels go off in different tangents - as do the forces acting on the wheels. In the toed in example, the two lines intersect at some point in front of the car creating a very stable straight line driving condition because these forces cancel each other out. The toed out wheels are always on their own tangent; each wheel acting independently when under power or under bump or wind load conditions - this can create very unstable straight line driving conditions because the wheel with the most grip grabs and pulls in the direction of its tangent. For this reason as well, braking suffers. In addition, optimal braking requires a wide - left to right, but short - front to back contact patch. Excessivley toed out or toed in wheels will lengthen braking distances because the contact patch is not optimized. But, toed out wheels add divergent forces to the less than optimal contact patch shape.

Excessive camber also reduces braking distance, especially when combined with lots of toe out.

Personally, the Mini is deficient in front end camber strength. I would install a camber kit before considering toe options. Toe out is a trick employeed to get to turn-in quicker...there is, in truth, a bit more grip available for a fraction of the steering angle when turning in due to toe out. But the toe out compromises do not add up in my opinion, especially when you consider that the Mini's steering is already wickedly quick. The Mini turns-in better than just about anything else.

Consider the Mini as a package or a platform for going fast. If one adjustment adds to speed, but thru it, compromises speed in another area, the package is no better off. Going fast requires balance or thoughtful compromise.

 

Sorry repeated post

 

I decided to get an alignment done today after installing H-Sport springs (Randy Webb did, actually) a month or so ago. I, like many others, had increased rear negative camber, and little if any change noticeable in the front. I have an 05 MCS, so the rear lower control arms are "adjustable."
I went to the (reputed) best alignment shop in Albuquerque and when finished ended up with the following settings:
Front camber -0.7L/-0.5R degrees
Front toe: +0.01L/+0.11R for a total toe of +0.12 deg
Rear Camber: -2.1L/-2.1R
Rear Toe: +0.14L/+0.14R for a total toe of +0.27

I told the guy about the lower control arms and he actually adjusted them, but when I asked he said that they adjusted the TOE, not the camber! Is he stoopid, or did I just get the most out of the shop I could for $90?

 

I have lowered my '05 w/ the H-sports as well and haven't aligned it yet. I have noticed on my early production car that there is no camber adjustment on the rear control arms. My folks had an MCSC for a few months and on that car there was a provision for rear camber adjustment. Just throwing that out there.

P.S. By the way, my tires are wearing fantastic and evenly, even w/ some fairly hard driving.

Later

 

Elsewhere on NAM you can discover that MINIs after Jan 2005 shipped with the adjustable OEM lower control arms. My point is that according to the alignment mechanic he used that arm to adjust toe rather than camber, which just makes no sense to me at all from what I've read here on NAM in hundreds of posts. So the question remains...can I find someone else who could use the adjustable lower control arm to get me a less aggressive rear camber setting?

 

What the aignment shop is saying is that as they adjust rear camber they are also effecting rear toe at the same time. If you don't install adjustible upper control arms, the alignment shop will have to adjust rear toe with your lower arms because toe is the most important. And as a result your rear camber will have to stay at whatever it is after toe adjustment.

 

meb

I think you are correct in suggesting the installation of front camber adjusting plates, as that should help the toe out effect on braking by reducing the positive Scrub Radius.
With the ability to increase the SAI, you at the same time decrease positive Scrub Radius.
Positive scrub radius causes toe-out during braking.
Negative scrub radius causes toe-in during braking.
By the way Scrub radius is the distance between the center of the tire & the imaginary line extended through the steering axis measured at the road surface.
Scrub radius is considered positive when the steering axis line contacts the road to the inside of the center of the tire.
Scrub radius is considered negative when the steering axis line contacts the road to the outside of the center of the tire.

 

if the car drives fine with no adverse effects from the lowering, i would just
leave it alone. i haven't done an alignment since my H-sports and don't
plan to.

you should see how much change my G35C had when lowering just 1"...
night/day difference in toe/camber settings. i had to take it in to get it
aligned, then re-aligned a few more times to get dialed-in to my preference.

it's not like that on the MINI's.

 

Rear toe is also adjustable by shifting the bolt position of the trailing arms.
There's a BMW/MINI tool #32 4 200 (eccentric socket) to facilitate this, but it can be done by hit and miss methods as well.

 

Ahh yes you are correct {like the old corvettes}. But it is time consuming & difficult even with the the proper tool. Most alignment shops are equiped for standard alignments and don't always want the special cases as with lowering.

 

Right-O.
But, isn't this what they're being paid for??? (yeah, ... right.)
I can do alignments at curbside with a level/t-square, tape measure,
string, and hand tools with accuracy that surpasses the average
shop bozo.