I went back and checked my old K-MAC post on this site and the K-MAC's were at least 9/32" thinner than the factory strut tops, meaning I LOWERED my car by at least 9/32" by having them on my car. It also looked like, at the time, that with a slight modification to the top part of the of the 3 piece K-MAC plates, that it (the top piece) could be mounted on top of the strut tower thereby lowering the car even more. I think it was another 1/4" but there might be some interference with the under hood sound deading material and many strut tower bars would no longer have fit, though I never got a strut bar.

 

The distance from the top of inside of the stut tower to the bottom of the stock mount is the same as the height to the TOP of the RDR bearing. I didn't do the measurement before I put them in the car, so I don't know the exact difference, but it's the thickness of the bearing used in the RDRs. I think I know how to use a ruler, so I think it's a pretty objective fact!

Matt

 

This change in distance goes as the sine of the angle. For small angles (in radians) the approximation is 1-(x^2)/2. For small angles near veritcle, there is little change in height.

Matt

ps ,sorry to take you all back to math land! But who knew that paying attention in class would help with suspension modeling!

 

Just found this thread...

I can confirm from my experience, and with others that I've confided with, that camber plates can indeed impact ride height. This is particularly so for those that mount from the underside. While it is deemed desirable from a strength perspective to have them below (in the wheel well, pushing upward), if thicker than stock, ride height will be increased.

I have taken photos, before and after, with a carpenter's square revealing the delta in ride height and saw nearly an inch (a bit more than .75"). This was so on both side, and I got the same when comparing the units (aftermkt vs stock) when removed. The perches were kept fixed...

The prevailing thought would then be to just get coilovers (if one didn't have them), and drop them down accordingly. Well, then one loses travel, or the length of. If one doesn't have bump stops, bottoming-out would be very evident. If bump stops are in place, as they should, one might not otherwise know if they are stopping-out. I put some painter's putty on top of the shock body to confirm that I was bottoming-out, and at driveway speeds...

The length of the shock body can be shortened a bit as well. As I understand it, the Leda shock bodies are a little taller than others. After communicating with Charlie (RDR) a few months back, he shared that his plates have experienced some issues with Ledas as well. I shared with him some of my findings, and he was in agreement. The thinner under-mounts, like the H-Sports or K-Macs have not had such issues, but the meatier plates do, understandably...

I have specially made front Ledas (.75" shorter) sitting here next to me. They are awaiting version 2 of the Webb plates that I still feel are the most desirable out there...

 

Tony,
Can you provide a link to that post? Are the photos included in it? I would like to forward the information to Perfpow and Randy.
It seems to me that it is clear there are ride height changes that take place which may vary depending on the plates used, anywhere from 1/4" to a full inch. My concern at this time, is to address possible solutions to returning the ride height to the "pre camber plate install height" and still retain the use of the higher end adjustable plates. Does anyone have suggestions?

 

Randy's.......I have coilovers so no problems. The guy that deos my alignments likes them as well

 

I've been looking at them a bit and thinking (Uh oh......) I think they can be machined to lower them closer to stock... But I don't have a mill in the garage......

Matt

 

Matt (Dr Obnxs),
Maybe RDR can make the bearing housing thinner. The top nut that bolts to the shock spindle are flush (no thread showing) on my car. Compare to stock, at least 3/8" of the spidle thread are showing. Wonder if the RDR bearing housing can be made 3/8" thinner. Not sure if you were talking about machining the plate where the bearing fits into or something else? Please elaborate. I sure would like to have more threads showing.
Emmanuel

 

Matt is correct, the ver 1 Webb plates at 1" thick are probably overkill, and I like that from a durability perspective. But given the ride height/travel issue, some sacrifices in strength should be considered. Ver 2 is taking-off 4mm, among other mods...

In an Enduro Randy was in a few months back, he unfortunately needed to take the scenic route during a situation, and the plates held-up to some very abusive off-road conditions. They are so well-made! When you see them in-person, and hold them in your hand, you'll know what I mean...

DK23, I never did start a thread on it, and with that, post the photos. I've been working with Randy directly on this, and he, as always, is taking care of me, cooridinating efforts with Leda (not easy with them being in the UK), and with Sol on refining these awesome plates (next batch coming shortly). Between losing almost 3/16 of an inch on these plates (4mm), and 3/4" on the shock body, that should put me just about there...

Being that mine were installed with coilovers, ride height was not the sign that I had an issue. Randy set them up such that I had 22.5" (I believe) from the ground to the zenith of the wheel arches. Being that we didn't install front bump-stops, while expecting some noise from these coiloves and plates, what I got was frighteningly loud, especially at freeway speeds on the way home. The painter's putty test did confirm that the hats were slamming into the top of the shock bodies, and that was in my driveway at about 5-10 mph...

I then got some bump-stops and installed them, but then, given their length, I'd be riding them all day, and that certainly defeats the purpose of desirable spring rates and valving. I've been running with the stock plates for a few months, and while I haven't done another putty test, I don't believe that I'm bump-stopping on the durometers...

I just went-out to look at the bump-stops, and they appear to be at least .5" tall. So, while I will be getting nearly an inch increase in travel (.75" shortened shock body, and 4mm thinner plate), I'll be taking away over half of that with the addition of bump stops. I'm really curious to see if this combo will do the trick for me! Time will tell...

I am no suspension or shock expert by any means, so I ask, under what conditions should bump stops be impacted? I tend to think that they are there as a safeguard for those not so often moments or extreme situations only, like catching air off the crest of an incline (impact when landing). Or should bump-stops be engaged through the normal course of daily driving? I tend to think not...

 

While not an expert either, my understanding is that the bump stops traditionally have been there as a safe guard against the occasional extreme and sharp travel. This would be air borne, pot holes, speed bumps etc at speed. If you are on the stops on a regular basis, you have spring rates not appropriate to your driving conditions, and/or not enough suspension travel. You want the suspension doing the work, not the car bottomed out riding on the stops.

 

Ubercooper,

A 1/8" - 1/4" change in ride height is enough to throw off alignment specs. I view this as a significant. More so if corner weighting a car for example.

 

Hey Doc,

Lets assume I've forgotten more than I remember; if sine is the outside face of the tire and wheel, then the tire/wheel combo will get shorter with more negative camber - positive camber too. The only way to avoid this is to increase the height of the tire with each increase in negative or positive camber.

 

Since it is a concensus that the camber plates does raise the car a bit, I was thinking of removing the front rubber spring perch pieces to lower the front and installing the one ball exhaust to remove some weight in the rear to raise the back. On my other cars, there was no rubber spring perch pieces so I don't think it would hurt. Also, looks like the rubber deteriorates as time wears it out. I was initially going to install my stock springs in the back to balance the front and rear but wanted to try the following first since I don't know what using the stock rear springs will be like w/ my hsport springs. I'm hoping by removing the upper and lower front rubber pieces will lower the front end by 1/4", the total thickness of the pieces and by removing about 20 lbs in the rear will raise the rear 1/4". I'll post when I get it done next weekend.

 

How much time or labor is involved in Installing : I need to get someone to do it ... PRONTO

1. Camber plates
2. Rear control arms

I would liker to order from Randy Webb, BUT he is AWOL

I may have to order from MINI-MANIA or HELIX

 

The rear control arms, a pair (bottom 2), figure on 1 hour, tops. This includes prep time...

For front camber plates, most recently, took me about the same, but the first time, it was more like 2 hours...

I heard that somone spoke with Randy today. If you haven't done so yet today, try both of his website phone numbers...

 

Then add one to two hours for the alignment, if the same shop is doing it.

 

UPDATE:

I Got ahold of the elusive Randy, hope he sends em out soon ...
I will book a time, when they arrive, for the install locally

 

I had H-sport at first but had issues with the inner bushings wearing out. Switched to RDR with very satisfactory results.