Suspension What Coilover's TO BUY!!!!????
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From: Stillwater, MN
What Coilover's TO BUY!!!!????
I just installed the Magnaflow exhaust and K&N air intake. Next is going to be Coilovers with front and rear sway bars with end links and powerflex bushings> Which one should I buy. I was thinking megan racing with build in camber or eibach. Any suggestions.
Depends on what you want to do with the car. There are ones that are primarily for the street such as Megan, KW v1, Eibach street pro and those that are more heavy duty for potential track work such as Eibach Multi-pro, KW v2, v3 etc.
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From: Decatur, Georgia
I went through a similar decision process a couple of weeks ago and I can share my thoughts. Now, I don't track the car but I enjoy an occasional jaunt through the mountains but this is also my daily driver. I went with KW v1 coilovers. With these, you get height adjustment *and* you maintain the equivalent to stock travel as long as you don't drop your ride too far (I'm hearing up to 1.5 inches, perhaps more). With the V1s you don't get damping adjustment but for it is a feature that, for most people, won't be used frequently.
Now, to be fair, I might have settled on the KWs because I had a chance to actually drive a coupe with them and so that probably short circuited a long extensive evaluation. I did look at the VMaxx, but was a little concerned about some comments that the ride was pretty stiff. Of course, stiffness is a personal preference...
It seems to me the real problem for most of us in making this decision is that you don't typically get a chance to take it for a spin so alot of the feel that might determine if you like them or not isn't really available to you when you decide.
So, perhaps you could use a dart board?
Now, to be fair, I might have settled on the KWs because I had a chance to actually drive a coupe with them and so that probably short circuited a long extensive evaluation. I did look at the VMaxx, but was a little concerned about some comments that the ride was pretty stiff. Of course, stiffness is a personal preference...
It seems to me the real problem for most of us in making this decision is that you don't typically get a chance to take it for a spin so alot of the feel that might determine if you like them or not isn't really available to you when you decide.
So, perhaps you could use a dart board?
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Joined: Jun 2009
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From: Maryland
I would be concerned with any product that is so much less expensive that anyone else. No experience on the product you mention, but when a price stands out, there is often a reason. ( in either direction)
Read the other threads where I have posted some specs. I did love the V1's on my last car. I am thinking Bilstein PSS10 or K2's. My perception is the rebound is too stiff to start with, so I want them adjustable. (R56). I am also thinking of the soft option, FSD with NM springs.
I would be wary of any with much higher than stock S spring rates. They would be track use. Wheels hopping in the air, race-stiff are just plain unsafe on the street, besides slow. You don't want to drive a race car on the street. Not a real one at least.
I keep hoping for some really expert suspension tuner to pipe in here with direct real comparisons. I understand physics pretty well, and have done a few, but that only makes me partially knowledgeable, not an expert.
Read the other threads where I have posted some specs. I did love the V1's on my last car. I am thinking Bilstein PSS10 or K2's. My perception is the rebound is too stiff to start with, so I want them adjustable. (R56). I am also thinking of the soft option, FSD with NM springs.
I would be wary of any with much higher than stock S spring rates. They would be track use. Wheels hopping in the air, race-stiff are just plain unsafe on the street, besides slow. You don't want to drive a race car on the street. Not a real one at least.
I keep hoping for some really expert suspension tuner to pipe in here with direct real comparisons. I understand physics pretty well, and have done a few, but that only makes me partially knowledgeable, not an expert.
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From: Maryland
Glock,
As a former V1 owner ( on RSX) how does your car handle with respect to the tires hoping airborne over sharp bumps? On my RSX, I had to reduce the rear springs by 1K to get it just right. On my 09 S, it can take a foot to the outside hop on some of the on-ramps in Maryland. Not what I call poised. Even in the straight, it gets really upset by a sharp bump.
Of course, what wheels, tires and inflation pressure?
As a former V1 owner ( on RSX) how does your car handle with respect to the tires hoping airborne over sharp bumps? On my RSX, I had to reduce the rear springs by 1K to get it just right. On my 09 S, it can take a foot to the outside hop on some of the on-ramps in Maryland. Not what I call poised. Even in the straight, it gets really upset by a sharp bump.
Of course, what wheels, tires and inflation pressure?
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From: Maryland
It is not that it is "wrong" ,it is that it is inappropriate.
Way too stiff for street use. Autocross, Friday at the track, OK. Unsafe on the street. Even the base Base S is too stiff for street use. It may be a suprise to kiddie racers out there, but cars go around corners much faster when the tires stay on the ground.
Way too stiff for street use. Autocross, Friday at the track, OK. Unsafe on the street. Even the base Base S is too stiff for street use. It may be a suprise to kiddie racers out there, but cars go around corners much faster when the tires stay on the ground.
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From: Maryland
Yes, and also have rear track arms with hard rubber bushings, correct for street. I have been waiting several days for feedback from them.
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From: Decatur, Georgia
Tvrgeek,
I haven't yet installed the kw v1's yet but I'm prepared for a good amount of tweaking. I know that on the R56 that I drove, he spent alot of time getting the right camber and toe that he felt kept him stable. My impression is that with sway bar stiffness, coilovers, and other suspension settings that you really need to think about what kind of driving conditions you're looking to optimize handing for. For now, I'm aiming for less understeer but I'm going to be careful to make some of these adjustments slowly to make sure I know the feel of the car before doing more.
Maybe the main thing to take from this is that we often start off thinking about a thing like 'coilovers' and lose sight of the fact that these are really tools. We can all lust after tools but its important not to loose sight of the fact that the tools do something for us. For the coilovers, its all part of tuning the suspension and doing that right puts you into a whole lot of tradeoffs...
I haven't yet installed the kw v1's yet but I'm prepared for a good amount of tweaking. I know that on the R56 that I drove, he spent alot of time getting the right camber and toe that he felt kept him stable. My impression is that with sway bar stiffness, coilovers, and other suspension settings that you really need to think about what kind of driving conditions you're looking to optimize handing for. For now, I'm aiming for less understeer but I'm going to be careful to make some of these adjustments slowly to make sure I know the feel of the car before doing more.
Maybe the main thing to take from this is that we often start off thinking about a thing like 'coilovers' and lose sight of the fact that these are really tools. We can all lust after tools but its important not to loose sight of the fact that the tools do something for us. For the coilovers, its all part of tuning the suspension and doing that right puts you into a whole lot of tradeoffs...
TheLex,
here is nothing wrong with putting one thing in at a time to see if it solves the issue you would like to address, Rear sway bars will reduce understeer. If that is not enough, the front cambers can help. next can be street coils or springs.
Sme people do put in the front camber plates first as it helps turn in by adjusting the cars front geometry.
here is nothing wrong with putting one thing in at a time to see if it solves the issue you would like to address, Rear sway bars will reduce understeer. If that is not enough, the front cambers can help. next can be street coils or springs.
Sme people do put in the front camber plates first as it helps turn in by adjusting the cars front geometry.
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From: Decatur, Georgia
I think generally I would second slinger's idea of changing one thing at a time. Of course YMMV. If you are not already, I would get some familiarity with terms like 'understeer' and 'oversteer', camber, toe, etc. When you make changes to the suspension, it is a very good thing to have an idea of what the consequences of some of the changes are (You, of course, may already, this is just a general statement).
To my mind, the best example is the presence of understeer that we try to address with the addition of the rear swaybar. There is a good reason that stock suspension has understeer and part of it is that normal, nonexpert drivers will do things that make a suspension understeer are potentially safer than oversteer. For example, if you take a turn too quickly and you abruptly decide to put the brakes on (as many regular drivers would) a car with oversteer (or just less understeer) is more likely than one with understeer to swing the rear of the car in the direction of forward travel. When that happens, experienced drivers will do a bit of countersteering to prevent a spin. Now, how many regular drivers, when experiencing their rear begin to slide will do that? Not many. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most would do the worst thing you could do and that is apply the brakes.
Changing things bit by bit and getting a sense of how the car handles in response to your changes will likely make you a better and safer driver. Honestly, it might also mean that you are more patient than I am
To my mind, the best example is the presence of understeer that we try to address with the addition of the rear swaybar. There is a good reason that stock suspension has understeer and part of it is that normal, nonexpert drivers will do things that make a suspension understeer are potentially safer than oversteer. For example, if you take a turn too quickly and you abruptly decide to put the brakes on (as many regular drivers would) a car with oversteer (or just less understeer) is more likely than one with understeer to swing the rear of the car in the direction of forward travel. When that happens, experienced drivers will do a bit of countersteering to prevent a spin. Now, how many regular drivers, when experiencing their rear begin to slide will do that? Not many. In fact, I'm willing to bet that most would do the worst thing you could do and that is apply the brakes.
Changing things bit by bit and getting a sense of how the car handles in response to your changes will likely make you a better and safer driver. Honestly, it might also mean that you are more patient than I am
Disclaimer/Warning: long opinionated post. this summer i'll take things apart and take pics/measurements to back everything up. other people have measured suspension travel on the Mini though.
Remember that although the stock S or JCW for that matter feels stiff, it's not because of the spring rate. They're really not that high. It's the lack of suspension travel that gives you that stiff feeling (and also a little too much rebound damping, but it's the travel that sucks more IMO).
Anyway compliance is important even in racecars. Compliance doesn't necessarily have to mean "soft", but being able to soak up mid-corner bumps on the track (Sebring anyone?) tends to mean you can soak up bumps on the street too.
A rear swaybar will reduce understeer and be a decent upgrade...however I personally would start with fixed camber plates with a good alignment, cut bumpstops or new dampers/coilovers, and then see if you need to mess with the balance of the car.
I personally would not touch lowering springs for this car unless they are a very mild drop with a solid increase in spring rate. Unfortunately these seem to be few and far between and very few companies actually post their spring rates, which is lame.
I wouldn't touch crappy chinese coilovers either.
TSW's KW's look nice and I like the effort they put in. They seem to know what's going on with the Mini.
- Andrew
Remember that although the stock S or JCW for that matter feels stiff, it's not because of the spring rate. They're really not that high. It's the lack of suspension travel that gives you that stiff feeling (and also a little too much rebound damping, but it's the travel that sucks more IMO).
Originally Posted by me from another messageboard
What happens when you "hit" the bumpstop? You probably don't feel the initial impact to be honest. They're actually designed to be engaged. Spring rate progressively increases....more and more rapidly, which means understeer. You can end up pretty far into the bumpstop actually, and the spring rates just keeps going up and up and up....
On my MINI and on a few other cars, the car is essentially on the bumpstops at rest. This means that the second the wheel turns, the car rolls onto progressively stiffer bumpstops. So you get AWESOME turn in, quick reactions and good feeling transitions. Similar to an EVO or Subaru with a HUGE front sway bar....awesome at up to 7/10ths or auto-x situations where steady state cornering isn't quite as important.
But this sucks *** (layman's terms) at the limit or anything beyond 7/10ths, as the spring rate spikes to infinity up front, you get massive understeer. Good for engineers designing a sporty car to "feel" good to most people and yet still be safe from underwear ruining oversteer. The MINI in stock form is kinda crappy when pushed really hard, but a total blast the rest of the time. It also sucks when hitting bumps.
On my MINI and on a few other cars, the car is essentially on the bumpstops at rest. This means that the second the wheel turns, the car rolls onto progressively stiffer bumpstops. So you get AWESOME turn in, quick reactions and good feeling transitions. Similar to an EVO or Subaru with a HUGE front sway bar....awesome at up to 7/10ths or auto-x situations where steady state cornering isn't quite as important.
But this sucks *** (layman's terms) at the limit or anything beyond 7/10ths, as the spring rate spikes to infinity up front, you get massive understeer. Good for engineers designing a sporty car to "feel" good to most people and yet still be safe from underwear ruining oversteer. The MINI in stock form is kinda crappy when pushed really hard, but a total blast the rest of the time. It also sucks when hitting bumps.
A rear swaybar will reduce understeer and be a decent upgrade...however I personally would start with fixed camber plates with a good alignment, cut bumpstops or new dampers/coilovers, and then see if you need to mess with the balance of the car.
I personally would not touch lowering springs for this car unless they are a very mild drop with a solid increase in spring rate. Unfortunately these seem to be few and far between and very few companies actually post their spring rates, which is lame.
I wouldn't touch crappy chinese coilovers either.
TSW's KW's look nice and I like the effort they put in. They seem to know what's going on with the Mini.
- Andrew
Last edited by andyroo; May 10, 2010 at 01:17 PM.
Thanks!
There was a great article i read somewhat recently interviewing a Prodrive engineer about different car's handling "feel." How a Mini would feel awesome on the streets of Monaco, and a BMW M5 wouldn't be as great....but it would be reversed on the race track. Both great cars with high limits, just the way they got there and what happens when you reach that limit. And talked about how they dialed these sorts of things into the car when working with manufacturers. Of course i can't find the article or remember what mag it was. :(
There was a great article i read somewhat recently interviewing a Prodrive engineer about different car's handling "feel." How a Mini would feel awesome on the streets of Monaco, and a BMW M5 wouldn't be as great....but it would be reversed on the race track. Both great cars with high limits, just the way they got there and what happens when you reach that limit. And talked about how they dialed these sorts of things into the car when working with manufacturers. Of course i can't find the article or remember what mag it was. :(
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andyroo, thanks for that post. I'm very familiar with under/oversteer characteristics of RWD and AWD vehicles, but this MCSa is the first FWD I've owned. My impression of FWD is that the factory dials in terminal understeer. The rear bar would allow some possible oversteer, but I'm not sure how that will feel with a FWD car and how I will need to counteract the oversteer. I'd better attend some driver instruction events to get the hang of it.
You post leads me to believe that coilovers may be in my future. I do like a compliant suspension. It seems to me that compliancy helps to control the vehicle in so far as it keeps maximum contact patches on the ground at all times. And it helps with the ride. That's why I thought that with a rear bar and softer tires in 16" i.e. non-runflats, for the street that would be a decent compromise.
But if as you say, the suspension is constantly hitting the bump stops, then that explains the sharp handling yet crappy ride. I'm surprised that Mini's BMW masters would build such as suspension. I thought BMW's were known for their compliant suspensions.
You post leads me to believe that coilovers may be in my future. I do like a compliant suspension. It seems to me that compliancy helps to control the vehicle in so far as it keeps maximum contact patches on the ground at all times. And it helps with the ride. That's why I thought that with a rear bar and softer tires in 16" i.e. non-runflats, for the street that would be a decent compromise.
But if as you say, the suspension is constantly hitting the bump stops, then that explains the sharp handling yet crappy ride. I'm surprised that Mini's BMW masters would build such as suspension. I thought BMW's were known for their compliant suspensions.
all throttle no bottle
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 295
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From: Wilmington,NC
just a note about Eibach coilovers...the struts are made by KW only the springs arer made by Eibach. Thats why they are so similar. I love my Eibach coils, I chose them over KW because the red springs fit my color scheme over the yellow. Both are made of stainless steel which I recommend because of corrosion.
andyroo, thanks for that post. I'm very familiar with under/oversteer characteristics of RWD and AWD vehicles, but this MCSa is the first FWD I've owned. My impression of FWD is that the factory dials in terminal understeer. The rear bar would allow some possible oversteer, but I'm not sure how that will feel with a FWD car and how I will need to counteract the oversteer. I'd better attend some driver instruction events to get the hang of it.
You post leads me to believe that coilovers may be in my future. I do like a compliant suspension. It seems to me that compliancy helps to control the vehicle in so far as it keeps maximum contact patches on the ground at all times. And it helps with the ride. That's why I thought that with a rear bar and softer tires in 16" i.e. non-runflats, for the street that would be a decent compromise.
But if as you say, the suspension is constantly hitting the bump stops, then that explains the sharp handling yet crappy ride. I'm surprised that Mini's BMW masters would build such as suspension. I thought BMW's were known for their compliant suspensions.
You post leads me to believe that coilovers may be in my future. I do like a compliant suspension. It seems to me that compliancy helps to control the vehicle in so far as it keeps maximum contact patches on the ground at all times. And it helps with the ride. That's why I thought that with a rear bar and softer tires in 16" i.e. non-runflats, for the street that would be a decent compromise.
But if as you say, the suspension is constantly hitting the bump stops, then that explains the sharp handling yet crappy ride. I'm surprised that Mini's BMW masters would build such as suspension. I thought BMW's were known for their compliant suspensions.
I do think that 16 inch wheels with non-runflats, the free camber mod, and a rear bar could be a pretty good set-up if you're not set on lowering the car. Bilstein HDs or Koni FSD do help ride quality too through better damping. The Bilsteins probably have a little more travel too due to the internal bumpstop they use.
But for lowering, I really would go with coilovers, MAYBE TSW springs.
- andrew
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From: Maryland
Advice on "one thing at a time is very sound". Basic test principal. ( Unless we are talking about the Taguchi method. ) It is very easy to get confused on what caused what if you change two or more things at once.
For what I am looking for, poise and predictiblity, I decided on Bilstein sports. I will try the S springs first, but I suspect the Justa springs are closer to my goal. Once the tires stay in contact with the ground, I will move on to de-camber. Lastly, balance with air and bars. Believe it or not, I am sticking with the 16 inch run flats for now. I do not think they are the culprit yet.
Lex, factory dials in massive understeer in almost all production cars. Ever drive a Miata? Gasp! Understeer is easy for an untrained driver to handle. Consumers Union will eat anyone alive who dares confuse a driver by making them actually learn how to control a car. ( Notice recent Lexus issue of driving into a corner too fast and letting off the gas. They called it a defect. We call it "trailing throttle oversteer"). Fortunately, you can tune with your right foot as Sling correctly points out, or adjust the balance the usual ways.
For what I am looking for, poise and predictiblity, I decided on Bilstein sports. I will try the S springs first, but I suspect the Justa springs are closer to my goal. Once the tires stay in contact with the ground, I will move on to de-camber. Lastly, balance with air and bars. Believe it or not, I am sticking with the 16 inch run flats for now. I do not think they are the culprit yet.
Lex, factory dials in massive understeer in almost all production cars. Ever drive a Miata? Gasp! Understeer is easy for an untrained driver to handle. Consumers Union will eat anyone alive who dares confuse a driver by making them actually learn how to control a car. ( Notice recent Lexus issue of driving into a corner too fast and letting off the gas. They called it a defect. We call it "trailing throttle oversteer"). Fortunately, you can tune with your right foot as Sling correctly points out, or adjust the balance the usual ways.