Suspension Eibach pro-kit arrived
5th Gear
Joined: Aug 2008
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Not trying to tell you off but I have researched this very thing before. I will not believe a manufacturer that says " yes your struts need to be replaced as well, here, the ones I build are better". Alot of research whent into the selection that mini uses for struts and I really doubt you can classify them as cheap. You have still yet to show proof of this. Why would the producers not put the statement anywhere on their websites stating stock struts are not reccomended for their springs? Because they cannot prove the fact that the aftermarket springs cause premature failure... I really am not trying to pick a fight but you are very closed minded. Show some facts and I shal believe, really I will but you cannot show facts and therefore it is percieved as a opinion. If I could find facts stating that they do not cause premature failure than I would but the case is many people run stock struts with aftermarket springs for many miles and years without incident. Believe it or not.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2009
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From: Live Music Capital Of The World
The ride is similar to stock, probably a tad stiffer, it does not seem to lean as much through the corners. I don't know if they are progressive springs. I mainly did it to lower the car a bit. All my cars have been lowered using coilovers or a shock/spring combination. This is the first time I only did springs and although the lowering effect is not as much, I still like it.
Here's something to think about... stock springs are progressive, but only a very small part of them are as such... most of the spring is one rate... but the bottom tapers in a little bit... the Eibachs are tighter wound up top causing the higher rates... but the TSWs are linear springs, like the JCW springs and coilovers. to technically speaking they can be more predictable, but a progressive spring will be more comfortable in a lot of situations...
Dave,
I have read both sides of this argument so far and can only chime in on what I know. Engineers design OEM Dapeners with specific tollerances, metalurgy and fluid composition to certain specs depending on each dapeners application. Many things factor in to those considerations such as it's weight distribution f/r, track width, factory wheel weight, factory tire specs . Those specs basically govern what the normal vertical operating range of the dampening components built into each shock/strut. So with those considerations in mind, the engineers design them to operate within certain vertical tollerances in the majority of the time to gain optimum performance and life expenctancy of the varouis components that make up the dampener.
So, when you alter that normal operating range so that the dampener is basically working in a range of motion it was not designed to do...ALL OF THE TIME....you greatly reduce it's ability of optimum performance and life expectency.
For example. BMW/MINI Inc. contracted with Bilstein and Eibach to design the JCW suspension systems for the Mini Cooper. In a cooperative effort these companies put together varouis kits for each MINI based upon each vehicles OEM specs due to their build specifications from the factory. ie: Transmission type, Sunroof ect. So no all JCW Sport Suspension kits are same. If you try to order a kit, they are sold based upon your VIN number which holds the key to your cars accessories and drivetrain.
I doubt any of these companies who sell LSP's would tell you of dampener failures for two reasons.
1) They would not sell as many springs.
2) They are NOT in the business of making and selling dampeners. Hence they maintain plausable deniability for purported dampener failure.
It was great that you got so many miles from those stock dampeners from Toyota, and I am quite frankly, surprised you were able to squeeze out so many miles on them. I guess to me, it is a testament to the spring manufacturer and their ability to compensate for the lack of dampening which had to be going on.
Best of luck with future modding, and I hope this info sorta sheds some light on this argument.
I have read both sides of this argument so far and can only chime in on what I know. Engineers design OEM Dapeners with specific tollerances, metalurgy and fluid composition to certain specs depending on each dapeners application. Many things factor in to those considerations such as it's weight distribution f/r, track width, factory wheel weight, factory tire specs . Those specs basically govern what the normal vertical operating range of the dampening components built into each shock/strut. So with those considerations in mind, the engineers design them to operate within certain vertical tollerances in the majority of the time to gain optimum performance and life expenctancy of the varouis components that make up the dampener.
So, when you alter that normal operating range so that the dampener is basically working in a range of motion it was not designed to do...ALL OF THE TIME....you greatly reduce it's ability of optimum performance and life expectency.
For example. BMW/MINI Inc. contracted with Bilstein and Eibach to design the JCW suspension systems for the Mini Cooper. In a cooperative effort these companies put together varouis kits for each MINI based upon each vehicles OEM specs due to their build specifications from the factory. ie: Transmission type, Sunroof ect. So no all JCW Sport Suspension kits are same. If you try to order a kit, they are sold based upon your VIN number which holds the key to your cars accessories and drivetrain.
I doubt any of these companies who sell LSP's would tell you of dampener failures for two reasons.
1) They would not sell as many springs.
2) They are NOT in the business of making and selling dampeners. Hence they maintain plausable deniability for purported dampener failure.
It was great that you got so many miles from those stock dampeners from Toyota, and I am quite frankly, surprised you were able to squeeze out so many miles on them. I guess to me, it is a testament to the spring manufacturer and their ability to compensate for the lack of dampening which had to be going on.
Best of luck with future modding, and I hope this info sorta sheds some light on this argument.
Last edited by -=gRaY rAvEn=-; Jan 6, 2010 at 09:49 AM.
5th Gear
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Guys, to start off,
To the OP I am sorry this got off target like it did.
To the rest, Thanks for a very good discussion.
I still have to stand by my logic though even though all of you have great points but no one has provided proof of the stock struts failing sooner with aftermarket springs.
We are not reducing the travel of the shock as a reduced size spring would not function in the stock perch. We are only lowering the loaded position 1"-2" from the stock height without added weight to the car (this still allows full travel of strut).
The reason that my Toyota's suspension had no issues is because of this fact and why all the people that I know (many of them of other Toyota forums) have never had issues. Now I have only been a member of the MINI scene for about a year so maybe you are all talking about a common issue of failure that is specific to MINIs but I cannot find facts to back this up and this is why I have asked in this thread if anyone has actually had a failure because of this. I am speaking from experience when I talk about this not what I have read or heard. (although I have read of no personal experiences of this type of failure and I have searched for it as well)
Please help me find info so that I may believe!
What I do believe now is that the aftermarket struts are a waste of our good tuning moneys! (exception is race cars)
To the OP I am sorry this got off target like it did.
To the rest, Thanks for a very good discussion.
I still have to stand by my logic though even though all of you have great points but no one has provided proof of the stock struts failing sooner with aftermarket springs.
We are not reducing the travel of the shock as a reduced size spring would not function in the stock perch. We are only lowering the loaded position 1"-2" from the stock height without added weight to the car (this still allows full travel of strut).
The reason that my Toyota's suspension had no issues is because of this fact and why all the people that I know (many of them of other Toyota forums) have never had issues. Now I have only been a member of the MINI scene for about a year so maybe you are all talking about a common issue of failure that is specific to MINIs but I cannot find facts to back this up and this is why I have asked in this thread if anyone has actually had a failure because of this. I am speaking from experience when I talk about this not what I have read or heard. (although I have read of no personal experiences of this type of failure and I have searched for it as well)
Please help me find info so that I may believe!
What I do believe now is that the aftermarket struts are a waste of our good tuning moneys! (exception is race cars)
Dave,
I have read both sides of this argument so far and can only chime in on what I know. Engineers design OEM Dapeners with specific tollerances, metalurgy and fluid composition to certain specs depending on each dapeners application. Many things factor in to those considerations such as it's weight distribution f/r, track width, factory wheel weight, factory tire specs . Those specs basically govern what the normal vertical operating range of the dampening components built into each shock/strut. So with those considerations in mind, the engineers design them to operate within certain vertical tollerances in the majority of the time to gain optimum performance and life expenctancy of the varouis components that make up the dampener.
So, when you alter that normal operating range so that the dampener is basically working in a range of motion it was not designed to do...ALL OF THE TIME....you greatly reduce it's ability of optimum performance and life expectency.
For example. BMW/MINI Inc. contracted with Bilstein and Eibach to design the JCW suspension systems for the Mini Cooper. In a cooperative effort these companies put together varouis kits for each MINI based upon each vehicles OEM specs due to their build specifications from the factory. ie: Transmission type, Sunroof ect. So no all JCW Sport Suspension kits are same. If you try to order a kit, they are sold based upon your VIN number which holds the key to your cars accessories and drivetrain.
I doubt any of these companies who sell LSP's would tell you of dampener failures for two reasons.
1) They would not sell as many springs.
2) They are NOT in the business of making and selling dampeners. Hence they maintain plausable deniability for purported dampener failure.
It was great that you got so many miles from those stock dampeners from Toyota, and I am quite frankly, surprised you were able to squeeze out so many miles on them. I guess to me, it is a testament to the spring manufacturer and their ability to compensate for the lack of dampening which had to be going on.
Best of luck with future modding, and I hope this info sorta sheds some light on this argument.
I have read both sides of this argument so far and can only chime in on what I know. Engineers design OEM Dapeners with specific tollerances, metalurgy and fluid composition to certain specs depending on each dapeners application. Many things factor in to those considerations such as it's weight distribution f/r, track width, factory wheel weight, factory tire specs . Those specs basically govern what the normal vertical operating range of the dampening components built into each shock/strut. So with those considerations in mind, the engineers design them to operate within certain vertical tollerances in the majority of the time to gain optimum performance and life expenctancy of the varouis components that make up the dampener.
So, when you alter that normal operating range so that the dampener is basically working in a range of motion it was not designed to do...ALL OF THE TIME....you greatly reduce it's ability of optimum performance and life expectency.
For example. BMW/MINI Inc. contracted with Bilstein and Eibach to design the JCW suspension systems for the Mini Cooper. In a cooperative effort these companies put together varouis kits for each MINI based upon each vehicles OEM specs due to their build specifications from the factory. ie: Transmission type, Sunroof ect. So no all JCW Sport Suspension kits are same. If you try to order a kit, they are sold based upon your VIN number which holds the key to your cars accessories and drivetrain.
I doubt any of these companies who sell LSP's would tell you of dampener failures for two reasons.
1) They would not sell as many springs.
2) They are NOT in the business of making and selling dampeners. Hence they maintain plausable deniability for purported dampener failure.
It was great that you got so many miles from those stock dampeners from Toyota, and I am quite frankly, surprised you were able to squeeze out so many miles on them. I guess to me, it is a testament to the spring manufacturer and their ability to compensate for the lack of dampening which had to be going on.
Best of luck with future modding, and I hope this info sorta sheds some light on this argument.
I have helped design lowering springs for a couple of cars.
There is a HUGE amount of variability between car models in how dampers are valved and how much bump travel is available. There is also a good amount of variability with the stiffness and drop of aftermarket springs.
You absolutely can not lump all OEM shocks and all aftermarket springs together and say that for all cars and all aftermarket springs they're all gonna blow out your shocks or on the other hand have no effect on your shocks.
The 2008 and later Subaru Impreza STi has absolutely beastly standard shocks in terms of valving. They are very good. You can safely increase spring rates by almost 50%....a huge jump. On the other hand, the standard 2008 Impreza WRX can barely keep up with it's stock spring rates. We simply decided not to produce a spring for that car's OEM shock at all, but are doing a custom designed Bilstein shock with matching springs. It gives us a LOT more freedom in terms of designing the spring....we're doing things that simply could not be done for that car otherwise. This was an engineering move, not a marketing move (with shock dynos and data to back it up). We could have made a soft crappy spring that probably made the car handle worse, but that's not what we do. The STI on the other hand, can handle what we wanted.
But it seems like you guys are forgetting bump travel, and that is very important (especially on the Mini). Drop a Mini 2 inches, and you've lost 2 inches of bump travel. You get 2 inches of droop travel from it, so total travel remains the same, but droop travel doesn't mean much when you're hitting a pothole.
With the Mini you're in big trouble because it's already on or near the bumpstops at rest. Bumpstops are actually designed to be engaged frequently on the Mini (even just during body roll in cornering), and these foamy rubber things ramp up spring rates very quickly and act as part of the suspension and make ALL lowering springs behave progressively.
Dropping a car too far will shorten the life of a shock. Increasing spring rates too high will do the same. Lowering a car and using SOFT spring rates will also increase wear on the damper as it will bottom out more. The internals of the shock get pounded.
There are many reasons why a spring manufacturer will say what the say about their springs will do to OEM shocks. The honest engineering truth is only 1 factor. I strongly believe a lot of them just plain don't know any better either.
- Andrew
There is a HUGE amount of variability between car models in how dampers are valved and how much bump travel is available. There is also a good amount of variability with the stiffness and drop of aftermarket springs.
You absolutely can not lump all OEM shocks and all aftermarket springs together and say that for all cars and all aftermarket springs they're all gonna blow out your shocks or on the other hand have no effect on your shocks.
The 2008 and later Subaru Impreza STi has absolutely beastly standard shocks in terms of valving. They are very good. You can safely increase spring rates by almost 50%....a huge jump. On the other hand, the standard 2008 Impreza WRX can barely keep up with it's stock spring rates. We simply decided not to produce a spring for that car's OEM shock at all, but are doing a custom designed Bilstein shock with matching springs. It gives us a LOT more freedom in terms of designing the spring....we're doing things that simply could not be done for that car otherwise. This was an engineering move, not a marketing move (with shock dynos and data to back it up). We could have made a soft crappy spring that probably made the car handle worse, but that's not what we do. The STI on the other hand, can handle what we wanted.
But it seems like you guys are forgetting bump travel, and that is very important (especially on the Mini). Drop a Mini 2 inches, and you've lost 2 inches of bump travel. You get 2 inches of droop travel from it, so total travel remains the same, but droop travel doesn't mean much when you're hitting a pothole.
With the Mini you're in big trouble because it's already on or near the bumpstops at rest. Bumpstops are actually designed to be engaged frequently on the Mini (even just during body roll in cornering), and these foamy rubber things ramp up spring rates very quickly and act as part of the suspension and make ALL lowering springs behave progressively.
Dropping a car too far will shorten the life of a shock. Increasing spring rates too high will do the same. Lowering a car and using SOFT spring rates will also increase wear on the damper as it will bottom out more. The internals of the shock get pounded.
There are many reasons why a spring manufacturer will say what the say about their springs will do to OEM shocks. The honest engineering truth is only 1 factor. I strongly believe a lot of them just plain don't know any better either.
- Andrew
Last edited by andyroo; Jan 7, 2010 at 12:12 PM.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 8,337
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From: oh10
But it seems like you guys are forgetting bump travel, and that is very important (especially on the Mini). Drop a Mini 2 inches, and you've lost 2 inches of bump travel. You get 2 inches of droop travel from it, so total travel remains the same, but droop travel doesn't mean much when you're hitting a pothole.
More like .2" before bumpstop contact and only 1.9" until COMPLETE compression. Lower your car 1.5" and you're not only riding on the bumpstops, you're compressing the bumpstop a good deal SITTING STILL. Start hitting bumps and you're almost certain to be bottoming out the strut. Something that will shorten the life of one's struts quickly.
Thread with measurements: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...on-travel.html (<---worthy read for anyone in this discussion.)
Before I had learned about suspension I was running lowering springs on stock struts and they were completely blown when I went to install koni yellows....only took about 20k miles.
edit: link added.
Last edited by Rally@StanceDesign; Jan 7, 2010 at 12:32 PM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 100
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From: Live Music Capital Of The World
I was thinking of buying some shorter springs and other upgrades, but after the dealer replace one of my front shocks (which I thought were the culprits) and I find the ride to be about the same as before, I decided to pass on springs and save money for a good coilover set.
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