Bavauto's customer service is brilliant (and I live in australia!)

 

Ordered my from Bavauto on Oct 4th and received them on 22th and was much faster than quoted 4-5 weeks. Have them installed by my mechanic yesterday and the ride improved so much and it feel like a different car. After 38k miles the original struts were not much life left on them.

 

Hmm... wonder if that means they have some??

 

Hey Doc, just wondering if your car ever settled back down to stock height?
Also, can anyone chime in as to what "much firmer" tranlsates too with the HD's?

My wife likes the idea of run flats, but doesn't like the ride. So maybe better shocks are the answer? 2010 MCS.

I am leaning towards HD's and a eibach 19mm swaybar. Stock springs.
But unless "firmer" translates to less harsh, less bounce, I'll have to pass.
The wife is all about ride quality and could care less how fast it can corner. If I make it ride worse, it won't be good for me.

To be honest, I doubt I will ever drive it past about 8/10th either.

Thanks for any input,
TREX

 

Trex,

In my case with a 2010 Justa, I really had no choice. The car was bottoming out so violently in the front that I HAD to do something. The 124 lb/in single rate front springs were retained and the increase in ride height in front has not changed. I first drove it with OEM Continental runflats after installing Bilstein HDs. The ride was MUCH firmer on both bump and rebound, but it did NOT bottom out, even on pretty severe, single wheel, dips.

I then installed Yoko ENVigors. The improvement in terms of reduced harshness was less than I had hoped. However, a lot of it has to due with the fact that to get good, even tire temps, I have to run 35 psi, cold in the fronts. (31, cold in the rear works there.)

It is hard for me to know if your wife's concerns are more with the beginning of any suspension movement or more with the end of it. If it's more the latter, she'll prefer the Bilsteins to OEM.

BTW, whatI have on the Justa is the "old fashioned" approach (soft springs and stiff shocks). The "modern" approach that has evolved because of improvements in damping control has gravitated towards stiffer springs and lighter damping that still maintains control.

DOC

 

I have the exact suspension you're thinking of on my 2010 MCS convertible. Stock runflats, stock MCS springs, Eibach 19mm RSB (stiffest setting), and Bilstein HD. Aftermarket springs were out of the question because of the potential vibration issues. JCW suspension springs would've been my pick, but they don't have a specific part made for convertibles (the heaviest of the bunch ). Just installed the RSB and shocks last week. (BTW, when I got the shocks from BavAuto 1-1.5 months ago I was informed by the rep that it was the last set in stock at that time...sorry to make you all wait ).

Ride is still stiff and by no means comfortable (due to the runflats). It is, however, a lot more controlled. Drastically reduced squatting and nose dive during heavy acceleration and braking. Rear end is relatively flat during turns but can still feel the front end sway a bit (of course, a front sway bar would help, but that would just increase understeer). Wish the sway bars were A LOT easier to install (read: they are a PITA to install) - I'd love to try a slightly thicker FSB with a 22mm RSB and see what it feels like. Anyway, the setup (sans the runflats) is a pretty good street combination. Probably decent for track, too. [Btw, for what it's worth, I have a friend that takes his old Miata (stock springs, Bilstein HD, RSB) to the track. It leans some, but is very controlled and fast during and transitioning through the turns.]

I did experience some strange bounce/oscillation during this one fast, 45-degree turn. Not sure what that's an indication of. Nevertheless, the car is generally more fun to drive.

Also, if I were comfort-oriented, ditching the runflats would be my first priority, not the shocks.

 

Cal,

Unless I misunderstood, it sounds like you assume non-runflats will make a big improvement in ride comfort, rather than actually experiencing them on your car as currently set up.

Given my experience, I would certainly have replaced my OEM runflats with conventional tires when they wore out, but the improvement is so small that had I to do it over, I would not have spent the money to replace brand new tires.

If there is another non-runflat tire which only requires 30 psi in the front to maintain even wear, that would probably greatly reduce the harshness.

BTW, I only have the Bilsteins on the front. However, there seem to be no problems with any pitching moments. I have the Hotchkiss rear bar set so it has no understeer at all and I have not experienced any incidents of hoppng or lurching that other people have reported when sliding the car on dry pavement.

In any case, I think Bilstein HDs (or equivalent) or stiffer front springs are essential on a 2010 Justa. Non-runflats help too, but not enough to be something I would suggest doing as an alternative if you can only afford one or the other.

DOC

 

Thanks for the feedback guys. Wish it were cut and dry, great ride quality, firm and controlled. Might have to try to Koni's, but those are quite a bit more money.

Swaybars are usually fairly easy to install, but have read in a few seperate posts that the mini rear sway bar isn't much fun. I have really liked what they have done for every car I have put them on though.

Cal, did you get an alignment done after the install?

I might ditch the run flats after they wear out, but probably won't just dump new tires. I would expect 16" rims would be a slight improvement as well instead of the 17's, but that would be prohibtively pricey as well, especially considering I would probably want the extra set of TPS sensors.

I might just have to live with the stock set up for awhile.

 

Trex,

I don't believe it is possible to change the rear swaybar without removing at least one spring/shock unit. (I took out both.) It's not hard since you don't have to remove the springs from the shocks. But, you will need to realign. (I checked my car before doing anything [300 miles] and the alignment was WAY off.) You probably already need an alignment and don't realize it since your car is new.

DOC

 

Just an update. Along with the Bilstein HDs I've completed the suspension by adding the full JCW Sport Suspension with the exception of keeping the Alta 19mm adjustable rear swaybar.

This lowered the MINI .4 inches and bumped up the front swaybar to the 24mm swaybar.

It's a fairly stiff ride now but well worth it for the improved handling.

 

Yes, extremely happy.

 

Has anybody else on here besides DOC have their car raised in static ride height after installing their Bilsteins? If so, was it an S or non-S?
Are P/N's for non S and S struts the same? Is it confirmed they have the same length?

Trying to figure this out before I jump into the install later this afternoon.
If the car becomes raised from just a strut swap, it means that the car is being supported by the strut, not the spring. This would be an issue.
The strut is there to dampen the movement of the spring, not to take the load applied by a bump to the wheel. If this is so, then the car is "crashing" against the spring everytime it hits a bump because the car is being held up by the struts, again, a problem in the long run. Especially for those installing the HD's on a lowered spring, as DOC is on stock non-S springs.

 

Boston,

There are only two likely possibilities, or a combination of the two. (Gas pressure between OEM Justa and Bilstein HD seems similar.)

1. Perches are slightly higher on Bilsteins

2. Internal bumpstop is already engaged at ride height, thus acting as a secondary spring.

BTW, all the stuff BMW says in their TIS that you have to take off to change the front struts is wrong. Just the usual like any other strut car is all you have to do.

DOC

 

So, the rears raised the car up by ~1/2 inch. I went back and cut the bumpstop in half, which dropped it back down some. I hear the rears do not have the internal bump stop? Thus I should leave some bump stop in there.
Thus, the old shocks in the rear (OEM Sport) indeed have very little damping, as they are moveable by hand. Thus, the car must have been resting and compressing the rear bumpstops. When replacing to the bilsteins, the higher damping helped hold the car up some while still resting on the bump stop, but not compressing the bump stop. So, it still sits higher than before now, but its not as bad. The fronts are also at about 2 fingers width instead of .5 finger width. This is dissappointing, as I really liked the way it sat with the fronts nice and low, and about 1 finger width in the rear (now its 2 fingers, 3 before cutting the bump stop).
Not sure why the front's are higher, unless like DOC said, its the internal bumpstop which is engaged at static height.

blah! I want to be back at my original ride height pre-bilsteins.
I do like how they ride though. Anyawys, its been such a long day and is definitely time to hit the sack. Will update more tomorrow, and some pics to compare ride height when the rain stops.

comments on the ride height?? anyone??
these threads get so many views but the ratio seems to be about 100 views per 1 response. Pretty sad guys, c'mon!

 

Boston, you are correct that the rears do not incorporate an internal bumpstop.

Regarding the fronts, what's the width of your fingers? If I go by mine, it sounds like you have seen an increase in front ride height of about 3/4"- 1" . That makes sense to me given that my Justa went up 1/2". Your MCS springs are much shorter, so you are further into the internal bumpstops at ride height than I am, thus raising your front end much more than mine.

DOC

 

I am lowered on Mach V Springs actually. Wheel gap in the front prior to strut swap (but with mach v springs) was (estimated) .25". Now i'm looking at about .75-.85". So probably just a smidge over half an inch increase. Reading around online it seems most people (bmw's and non mini's), get about .5" increase in ride height.

Thinking about it some more, the shocks may not be sitting on the bumpstops, but what it is was the OEM shocks compressed so easily under load (small damping coefficient), so while the body was resting on the springs, there was little resistance from the shocks. Now, since there is a much larger damping coefficient, the body still sits on the spring, but the weight is being helped distributed by the "resistance" of the bilstein shocks.
Over time this may settle down some as the gas pressure is slightly relieved, but not much else to do unlses I go H&R springs to lower 1.5 inch instead of 1.25" and have the .5" increase from the bilsteins. Or go full blown coilovers...
I think this will have to do for now, and i'll enjoy the improved handling.
Turn in is better, and rebound is very good. Initial impact from bumps are what gives the description people are giving of the "harshness" of the ride in the bilsteins, but the car doesnt have the floating behavior it did with the OEM shocks (aka not damping out oscillations)

 

Well, been on the fence for awhile but finally fell off. Ordered the HD's from bavauto today. Was told they would ship sometime in March. Must just be the nature of Bilsteins to always be in short supply.

I just couldn't swallow paying almost double for the Koni FSD. Lot's of opinions out there, but will add my two cents after the install.

TREX

 

I was a Koni guy 40 years ago, but after installing Konis, being unhappy, then replacing them with Bilsteins on three different cars in a row and being much happier each time, I have been a Bilstein guy ever since.

Based on my experience, I think you will be very happy with your Bilsteins. If you would like to save even more money, I suggest installing just the fronts and then try driving the car. You can return the rears for credit (or sell them on NAM) if you find, as I did on my Justa, that the car is just fine with the stock rears in place.

If you check your front camber before dismantling and after installation, you will find a reduction in negative camber because of ride height increase. So, you may want to consider ordering a pair of IE fixed camber plates (street only car) and installing them in one operation with the new struts, or elongating the slots in the strut towers in order to recover the lost negative camber.

DOC

 

Well, I got mine in a week, but, yes, you can expect delays based on your luck. They make thousands of socks. So they are made in batches. If you happen to order between batches when stock is low, you have to wait for their next run. Be glad it is a few months. I had an issue with some electronic parts that were made every two years, and that years batch had an issue. We had to redesign our product or shut down for two years!
(HD's, Hotchkis bar on stiff, 205 re-960's. Slotted towers to decamber. Very well balanced.)

 

TVR,

So, you elongated the holes in your front strut towers to increase negative camber? I'm debating doing that vs IE fixed camber plates (street only). I currently have about .4 degrees of negative (pins removed) and want to go to about 1.6. IE claims an increase of 1.2 degrees with their units which, combined with what I have now, should be just about right.

My question is, based on your experience, roughly how much elongation of the slots is needed to get at least an additional degree of negative camber? Obviously, there is a practical limit to how how far you can go before the stock strut top hits the edge of the "big" hole in the center of the strut tower. (I don't want to compromise the strength of the strut tower by grinding on the lip of the "big" hole.)

I know you have a Cooper S and your ride height is lower, but I think the camber change curve is pretty linear. So, if you found, for example, that elongating the slots 3/8" inboard got you an additional degree of negative camber, it should be similar if I do the same.

Thanks,

DOC

 

Some list the sport. WRONG, it is the HD. You want the HD anyway. The idea is to keep the tire on the ground. That's what shocks are designed to do. Delphi does not know that. Mini does not know that.

HD's, stock springs, real tires. Just do it.

 

Doc,
Mine is an 09 S. I believe the Justa has different spring rates, softer by about 20%. So, everything I say may have different results on a Justa. This is why we call it "tuning".

To put this in to perspective, my goal was not ultimate fast, but a well balanced street sports car. It has the stock springs. I run 205-16 RE960's, not summer gumballs. I do not autocross or track. I expect the car to do exactly what I tell it to, never surprise me and provide an "in the road" solid feel and still behave in the rain and snow. This is not what you want for a track car. A track car is unsuitable for the street and should scare the be-geezies out of you while getting that last half a tenth on the track

Lets start with the rear, as it is easiest. The rear suspension has very good geometry with negative gain to exactly match the body roll. ( According to my half-scale drawing I made) So you do not need much in the rear. Just by adjustment between the front of the trailing arm and the rear eccentric, I got zero toe and -.4 negative camber. As this is free, I thought a good place to start. At zero camber, it was just a tad loose. I tried a touch of toe in and out. Did not like either result.

On the front. Camber change is like all other struts. Almost none. But the S has very (too) stiff springs. I went to a stiffer rear bar, so even less body roll. With the stock springs and stiff rear bar, again you don't need a ton of camber for street use. ( Note, you must do an alignment to correct the toe after camber change). I tried the -.3 I could get by just pulling the pins. EVERYONE should do that. Vastly better than stock, still understeering more than I prefer. Only by stupidity could I get the rear to come around. Anyway, slotting 3/8 inch got me -9. Tires are all at 33 Lbs. It is balanced close enough that the road and your input make it either loose or tight. So, I saw no reason to put on plates. Sure, you can go as much as 1.5 without doing terrible damage to tires and not too bad on breaking, but if you don't track the car, I do not think that is necessary on the Mini. It was on my RSX, but that is not the same car. ( -1.2 on front, -1.5 rear) If I were tracking it, I think I would look at caster too. I almost went for the IE fixed plates. The results of just slotting confirms it was not necessary for me. Would more camber allow a softer rear bar? Maybe. Maybe a softer rear spring. Problem is, unless you are running adjustable coilovers and shocks, you'll never know. This discussion is only for fixed shocks and springs.

That said, install if free when changing the struts. An adjustable plate WITH A COMPLIANT BUSHING is not a bad choice for the street. Problem is with fixed plates, if it is too much, you have no way to move around to find what is right for you. Everyone expects a different feel. No two drivers will love the same setup. If I had an unlimited budget ( some one else's money) I would soften the springs a tad and re-tune the shocks to match. Not as soft as a Justa. It is still half a hair stiff for Maryland roads. It would be fun to see what a Justa does with stiffer bars and decent shocks.

Again, I was after poise, not ultimate speed. I have some limited professional instruction, and being older than dirt, a lot of miles behind me, so my settings suit my style. I will make a warning about my setup. If I sell the car, I will move the rear bar to the softer adjustment to force a bit more understeer. My car is not suitable for an unschooled driver on the street. I am not being critical of skills, just realistic in knowing the audience. Good engineering. If you have not had professional training, stick with a car that plows like a pig. My car holds on a long time, then breaks quite quickly. Very little warning. It is a sports car.

 

Got some good news today. Ordered Bilstein sport shocks on 20 Jan, received confirmation on 20 Jan, received e-mail "items on back order" 21 Jan, got an e-mail today 29 Jan - - - items to be delivered this Tuesday (ups) 1 Feb.....Ordered from Bavauto

 

Let us know how you like those Bilstien sports. I am curious if you get the same .5" raising effect as others have got with the HD's. I had Bilstien Sports on my last 3 BMW's and absolutely love them. Keep us posted!

 

TVR,

Thanks for your reply. That's what I needed to know. If you only gained .6 degrees of negative camber by elongating the holes 3/8" inboard, I will need the IE plates and a little elongation of the holes to allow equalizing camber, side to side.

It's hard for me to imagine that our frost heaved roads here in Mass are not even worse than the ones you are complaining about in Maryland. The Justa with Bilstein HDs is slightly stiff for my taste in a street car. I think the general ride quality with Justa OEM struts and springs is about right, but I could not live with violent bottoming that occured ridiculously easily and freqently. The Bilsteins took care of that, but significantly stiffened the overall ride qualty. I am happy with the 1/2" ride height gain in the front that came with the Bilsteins and would not consider losing any ride height, given the roads (and driveway) where I live.

I am biasing towards less understeer, but I have been racing Formula Fords since 1973, so hopefully my reflexes are up to handling something that is nose heavy and weighs triple what I have been racing for 37 years.

(BTW, my very first car was a 1960 Austin 850 Mini which I ran in autocrosses in 1966.)

Thanks again,

DOC