This is just not right. You must be almost 0 on the left (picture) and maybe -1.5 on the right.

 

OUCH ! !

There is definitely something else going on there.

 

Although I agree the pictures do not look "right" the car was aligned at that time and did drive straight down the road. The camber was set at -1.5 on each side in that picture. After the initial install when we set camber to -0.5 the car drove exactly the same, drifting in the direction of each prior turn. In between installs, everything was removed so that we could insert the IE spacers required between the pivots and upper spring perch. Could the problem be as simple as something wrong with the camber plates? What exactly was wrong, I honestly don't know and don't want to invest any more time searching.

The ultimate test was to remove the IE camber plates and re-install the OEM ones. This solved the steering drift issue immediately. I believe that if there is anything wrong with the subframe, body, ball joints, steering rack, power steering pump or other component(s), the car would not drive correctly now.

The next question is what to install now as I would like to be able to set the camber to -1.5 to -1.8 even on each side. I am basically back to where I started 3 weeks ago.

 

yes it's spacers for that reason, IE forgot to send them with mine too. but we made some and have not had any issues.

As IE seen this set of Pics? They are not right, I think you may have some wrong hardware. If they have not seen the pics, please email them over to them. The IE Plates are great and shouldn't be having this issue.

 

Hey Rad, do you have any pics of them installed on the strut but not in the car?

 

Added those red lines and green dots. I don't think it's the camber plates. Sorry. Something is quite strange.

 

When I had IE adjustable plates installed, my car pulled in the direction of the last turn too. But now it doesn't, I assume it's because I've gone thousands of miles with them in. I thought it was normal and they needed to break-in.

 

Sorry no pics of the IE plates on the struts but out of the car. Yes, we did send those pics to IE but it was more to make sure the plates were on the correct side which IE said they were. IE assumed the pics were of the car while work was in process and did not comment on the varince between left and right strut shafts (red lines and green dots above).

I see the issue with the red lines & green dots (we thought it was odd while on the alignment rack but the numbers were even) and don't argue that point but all I can report is the car drives fine now and has driven fine for last 5 years. I don't think we could have installed everything twice and made the same mistake to cause the exact same steering drift issue. We checked the struts each time to make sure the shafts rotated freely and were not bent in any way. All looked fine.

 

Rad, don't mean to keep harping on this, so I will back off.
It's just this, the fact that you don't have to do any camber adjustment when you put the factory plates on and it goes fine. And the fact that you did have to do camber adjustment with the IE and it does not run fine. Just more makes me wonder if the aligner is just making a bad mistake.
Ho about a pic now, with the factory plates in? I'd like to see how they look and compare.
A digital level would be a good thing to have, and have anyway since you will have adjustable camber plate, to self check your own camber.

Oh, yea, you did say that you guys are in fact adjusting toe after every single camber change, right?

 

I had to stop using one alignment shop because they refused to have their rig tested for accuracy...after two alignments rear toe was so bad that the rear of the car would literally jump about 6" to one side after hitting an abrupt expansion joint type bump.

I agree with Greg Rad...and remember, we are all here to help, not harp. I guess the reason I keep pushing is that either the plates have a problem or the alignment shop's rig is not working correctly...if not you will likely have the same problem no mater the type of adjustable plates you install.

You also wrote in a PM to me that you have Hotchkis springs installed. Is each spring the same length? A collapsed spring can also cause what we are seeing...

 

I appreciate the help from everyone, so I apologize if my answers sound otherwise. Its just been 3 weeks of this and no solution.

Yes, the toe was adjusted each time the car was on the alignment rack. I can only assume that the rack is properly calibrated as the other vehicles that are being aligned are working properly. The shop belongs to a good friend of mine and works only on BMW's and MB's. The alignmet rack is a Hunter 311 and was recently (less than 1 month ago) calibrated by Hunter. We did check and re-check each of the numbers everytime the car was on the rack. I was present and "helping" him every time the car was aligned. Of course we are human and there could have been something wrong but the alignment was done 3 separate times and the results were always the same drifting after a turn.

The Hochkis (H-Sport) springs both looked fine and the ride height is even from side to side so I don't think I have a collapsed spring. I did not physically measure the springs when either in or out of the car.

onasled, what kind of pics would you like to see? The plates from the top? I assume the struts will be in the exact same place as there is no camber adjustment. I will post whatever you like. What do you suggest I check with the digital level, the camber along the side of the wheels? I am not sure the accuracy would be enough and I would have to find a perfectly level piece of flooring at home in the driveway.

I have nowhere near your level of expertise but if the camber were off as you suspect, would the car not pull to just one side? Would the car drive striaght down the road then not return to center after a turn if the camber were off? I just don't have the experience to answer that myself and nobody I have asked has said that "yes" that would be a valid symtom of having the camber wrong.

Again, thanks for all the help!

 

Camber also defines the Steering Axis of Inclination SAI or King Pin Axis as the Europeans like to call it. SAI causes the body of the car to rise over both wheels as the steering wheel is turned. When you let go of the steering wheel, the car will naturally return to center because gravity combined with forward motion and a castering affect act on the wheel to point them straight ahead again. If camber is off on one side, so is SAI...and if one side of the car is rising while the other is not the steering will have a tendancy to stick where it is.

Adding lots of caster will also do the same thing because caster raises only the body over outside front wheel and lowers the body over the inside front wheel. Caster at some dilutes the self centering affetc of SAI.

 

I'd like to see a picture from the same angle that you took the IE plates from. I'd like to compare the two shots, IE vs Factory.

 

Here are 2 pictures of what they look like with the OEM plates.

 

 

'RadRodriguez' I'm sorry to hear about your handling problem. Thanks to both you and 'onasled' for the information and photographs.

I read good comments about the Ireland Engineering camber plates but now I'm a little concerned.

I have two reasons for wanting camber plates. The first is to reduce the risk of front unit-body strut tower deformation (mushrooming). I just completed reviewing the 400 plus remarks on the Strut Tower Mushroom/Top Mount Crack thread. The second one is I do some road course (track) driving with my Mini and a little more front camber would be nice.

I use the stock suspension with 7" x 17" wheels and radial street tires for the track.

Advice please?

 

The third reason for camber plates is to replace the stock rubber top strut bearing that will rip/tear at some point. More front negative camber provided a big improvement in handling.

 

Rad, As you may see in the group of four picture, and yes, they are only pictures so not very exact, is that the factory strut top bolts are pretty close to exact, with maybe some caster difference.
As you can see with the IEs is that the pic on the left looks to be set at factory camber, and the one on the right seems to be closer to that -1.5 you were after.
I can't believe that the factory camber is off that much on you car. Most mini's have less then a .5 degree difference from one side to the other. If your IE alignment is correct, then you are saying that the factory camber is off about 1.5 degrees from one side to the other.
If this is actual fact then you should do a Carfax to see if this car has been in a bad accident. .
I stick by my guns that unfortunately your friend is failing you.
A quick note. I know a guy here on NAM that took his car to what is known in these parts as the best Porsche race car shop around. A huge place with incredible race cars all around. Well, this guy went in for a corner balance job. That Mini came out of that place so F'ed up, I can't begin to tell you. Embarrassing. My point is that you need to get a second opinion before you condemn IE and move onto another brand. I race with IE and think they are great plates.

Cooper Climax. Camber plates are about the best thing on can do to improve track handling and improve tire life on the track.
Problems are rare, and again, I really like the IEs and the price is more then fair.
Understand, you will still get mushrooming with camber plates alone. I hade a race set that were 3/4 thick aluminum, and I mushroomed big time. You really need to complement them with an anti mushroom plate, like what Rad has with his M7 strut bar.
Mushrooming is more apt to happen with aftermarket camber plates, as they don't absorb the shock like the factory plates do.
Go for them. They are the step in the right direction to making you car more fun to drive on the track, and on the street.

 

Good catch on the bearing, I forgot that one. Anyway this change will require more work than the Mini-Madness reinforcement plates but has more benefits to me.

 

onasled;

Thanks for the time you put into the advice.

As an engineer I understand that larger impact forces will be transmitted through the camber plate. However, I thought the surface area of the adjustable camber plate was larger than the stock fixed one, hence would spread the forces over a larger area of the strut tower? I realize it is not as large an area as that of the Mini-Madness reinforcing plate.

I also thought about the 'plate sandwich' solution that most say is the best, especially if it is in the form of a strut tower brace.

 

If you're only looking for *moderate* camber (approx -1.5 to -1.75deg) and can live with a little variation side-to-side (which is typically fine for a street car that occasionally sees the track) the Ireland Fixed Plates are a good alternative. They combine a beefier OEM-style rubber mounted bearing (for quietness and shock absorption) with a fairly thick, large steel plate. While I know onasled has had mushrooming with non-rubber-bushing camber plates, I don't know anyone who has had this problem with the Ireland fixed plates. Usually when mushrooming occurs, a contributor is the flimsy stamped steel stock upper strut plates that deform easily when pounded by the strut... the Ireland fixed plates (and most others) should be significantly more resistant to such deformation (though not immune under extreme abuse).

 

Hey, you sayin I extremely abuse my car??? http://www.vimeo.com/4540813

 

I've been happy with my Helix plates. They mushroomed when I abused my car though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbsM9ooWZAI

Thankfully onasled was able to put things back together again.

 

Greg, what Porsche place...

 

OK... maybe "abuse" was the wrong word... maybe "can mushroom under extreme impacts..."

Dang snid... had never seen that vid.... yikes.