I have a 07 r56 s with the factory hypersport package which includes upgraded sport suspension. Is my rear sway bar comparable to those of alta, h sport, and others and not worth upgrading or is it wise with the mods I have, vvSigvv, to upgrade to something more aggressive? I would love to try and get rid of torque steer as much as possible. Kinda new to suspension world, so positive and helpful feedback would be much appreciated!! Thanks in advance!!

StevieC

 

My 07MCS had the sports package. Did not like the sway of the car at the track or hard cornering so the only suspension mod I have done was replace a 22mm sway bar. I love the change. It did not effect the torque steer at all but does not effect the ride quality either. But if does flatten the cars in the turns. The car is set up at the factory to understeer and the stiffer sway bar reduces understeer and therefore increasing the change of oversteer.

 

thanks for the fast reply. so 22mm, however, you race on the track, my car seldom sees a track. Is the 22mm good for day to day driving as well? I drive aggressivley and love to take my car through the twisties, but still want a smooth ride. Also if you dont mind, which company did you choose it from? Thanks!

 

The most noticeable enhancement I've made was the rear bar. I did this prior to the springs. Sway bars do not change the straight-drive ride, only the roll characteristics. Springs usually add a harsher ride, mine did - but I like it.

 

which rear bar did you choose?

 

I have the sway bar from Mini-Madness. It has 3 setting & I use the middle.

 

Hotchkiss Competition rear bar, #22810R (+226%, +294% & +383%), set on middle hole.
The Race bar #22811R (+314% / +394% / +501%) is way too much for the street in any case, but especially so absent a larger front bar.

With the stock springs the middle hole tended slightly toward oversteer, it is neutral with the new springs.
If you're not used to managing a little oversteer, mount using the holes on the bar ends with stock sport springs and you'll be near neutral. YMMV.
The most improvement I found was both turn-in and transition (left-to-right/right-to-left), very predictable and sharp feeling.

 

my inside rear wheel will completely lift off the ground in a hard turn even with the 22mm rear sway bar in the softest setting. I think a 19mm bar would be a huge improvement without going over the top. Even in the softest setting it will offer higher tension than the 18mm sport sway bar you have now. It will reduce body roll but not offer much improvement with torque steer. For that you need better shocks and springs to reduce weight shift and increase tire patch contact with the ground. JCW makes the complete kit which would have factory warranty but is quite expensive. No aftermarket shocks are available yet but Koni Yellows and FSD's should be out in a few months, or there's always coilovers. The more expensive ones are very adjustable to optimize handling and ride height.

 

Does anyone have the factory torque specifications for the bolts when installing a new saw bar? I plan on purchasing a 19mm sway bar and want to do the install correctly.

 

I found my Alta bar set to the middle setting to be a good balance with the stock suspension. I just did a major suspension upgrade and may need to move it to the stiffer setting. A stiffer rear bar would definitely a good bang for your buck suspension upgrade.

 

I've got a 19mm H Sport bar, middle setting, and that does me just fine (no track, no springs). Feels very different than stock. I'd be real careful putting a 22mm bar on the stock springs. You could lose the rear end pretty easy.

 

yeah the consensus seems to be that the 22mm sway bar is a bit too much for the day to day driver who doesn't or rarely tracks their mini. great feedback, making my decision very easy...thanks everyone!

 

wwhoooaahhhh back up. We just installed the 22mm on our MINI that is daily driven and tracked once a month and the 22mm is PERFECT. We have it set on the softest for now untill she gets used to it on the track again then we will probably bump it up to get more oversteer. From the research we did the 19mm seemed ''ok'' but we wanted the best "bang for the buck" and poped for the 22mm. Ultimately its your choice but thats our concensus.

 

ahhh i see. So the 22mm at the softest setting is perfect daily driving and some spirited driving on the street? Would you say there is a big difference in handle? I have the 18mm from the factory with my sport package, and it seemed after some thought that going up 1mm was useless money. Is it still comfortable? I am very intrested in these bars. Thanks.

 

While going from the factory sport bar at 18mm to one of the aftermarket 19mm bars seems like an inconsequential change, keep in mind the 19mm bars typically have 3 settings to play with, all of which are considerably stiffer than the OEM unit.
I doubt that either 19 or 22mm bars will yield a ride any less comfortable...

 

It is still just as comfortable but the handling is MUCH improved. the softest setting is awsome, so i can't wait to try the hard setting. Although, it will be too much for the street on hard. From MY opinion the 22mm on soft is perfect for street/canyon driving. It gives a flatter feel and requires less steering input. It decreases the understeer dramatically.

 

22 MM is better value for money in terms of overall effect. Your max stiffness on the 19 MM RSB (using #s from Alta) is 177%. The 22 mm bar minimum setting is a 213% stiffness. Not sure if your butt-dyno can tell the difference but that's the numbers.

Also: your sway bar won't affect ride quality unless it's maxed-out stiff. Like, race-car stiff, at which point your ride is a non-issue. For the 19 or 22 MM sway there will be no effect on smoothness.

There is probably an explanation of suspension components on the forum somewhere, but here's an oversimplified version: the reason the sway bar doesn't affect your ride is that bumps/potholes are absorbed by wheel travel up and down. The sway bar has little to do with up/down wheel travel as you're driving down the freeway. It makes the body stiffer from side to side, so that when you go into a corner it prevents body roll / reduces flex. Flatter is better in the corners.

The reason the inside tire comes off the ground with a super-stiff rear sway bar is that it's keeping the frame "flat" but the suspension can't keep up. What happens is the outside spring/shock sits down due to strong cornering forces, inside wheel loses contact b/c sway keeps everything level. Which is why you want lowered springs/shocks or coilovers if you want to run a super-stiff sway bar. You have to lower the whole car so it sits down closer to the ground, further reduces roll, reduces the flatten effect to the outside, and thus reduces the amount it will lift on the inside tires. Note that there are other forces at work here but I said "oversimplified".

In a straight line you're still getting the same wheel travel regardless of sway bar.

I recommend episodes of Top Gear to see all this in action on actual factory cars / suspensions of all types.

sorry this post got so long.

 

I have 22mm rear bar on middle setting and I drive that everyday.

 

wow, you people just sold me. So 22mm it is, now to a different question...solid or hollow at 22mm? What are the thoughts, differences? Thanks!

 

? just go with Alta... Awsome product and customer service to back it.

 

I went from a standard suspension rear sway bar to an H-Sport 19mm. With it on the middle setting I noticed that it is much harsher on rough roads.

Increasing the stiffness of the rear sway bar also increases oversteer. In the middle setting the tail would really swing around when the car went over the limit. It also felt like it was oversteering before getting to the limit. To increase anti-roll without changing the balance of the car would require increasing front sway bar stiffness at the same time as rear. Oversteer can be useful in AutoX, and perhaps at the track. It can be a disaster on the street.

 

Vehicle handling is a coordinate system of interacting elements. Vehicle dynamics are influnced by, but are not limited to: tires and their behavior, axle kniematics, steering systems, drive type, suspension type, spring rates, damping rate; all interact to provide an overall chassis dynamics.

What this means is that if you change any part on a vehicle, it may require a corresponding change or adjustment to another part or parts. An analysis of overall chassis forces and moments (acceleration, braking, turning), and their transitions, is necessary to determine the appropriate configuration.

Although a complex system, simply adjusting tire pressures can (and in my case - a 25mm bar on the soft setting - did) eliminate the mild oversteer generated by a stiffer rear bar.

Subsequently; altering the vehicle ride height, spring rates and the front and rear caster and camber gave me a neutral steering car with nearly factory-spec tire pressure that can be brought into under- or over-steer by modulation of the throttle. No change to the front bar was indicated, necessary or recommended as this generally makes MINI Coopers unpredictable in their slip angle where the lateral tire force meets the limit of the tire friction cooefficient.

A true neutral-handling car can be easily placed into under/oversteer. Most un-trained drivers do not manage understeer properly (or the transition) and see it as dangerous rather than simply a chassis dynamics condition that can be used for advantage.

Lastly, one person's oversteer is another's neutral handling, similarly, one person's sense of "harshness" in the ride may another's "improved road feel". Other MINI owners drive my car and ask "why does this thing handle so much better than mine?" As always, YMMV.

 

Weight, provided the bar has the same resistance to twist. Ask the manufacturer what the resistance is on each bar. Hotchkis lists their bars larger than 19mm (since 19 mm is the same as an "S" bar there is no listing) as a % change in comparison with a stock bar. Mine (25mm #22810R) is +226%, +294%, +383%.

 

I just installed the ALTA 19mm sway bar today. I have is set on the medium setting. It works great. The under-steer is gone and if to aggressive I do see where over-steer would quickly be evident.

Unless you plan on auto-crossing your car daily I would not recommend the 22mm sway bar for a daily driver.

 

miniutia, thanks for that info, that was fantastic of you to go through that for us! Thanks!

Very good info on here, I am the type that doesnt mind a stiffer ride. I like the feel and it can't be THAT much harsher, for me anyways. I agree with Miniutia last comment about people and their preferences. I already drive spirited as it is and enjoy taking the car to its limits every once and awhile. I think the 22mm on its sofest will do great for me.

Still want people's thoughts and reviews though! Keep it going!