Suspension Strut Tower or Underside Brace? Another one..
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 512
Likes: 53
From: West Chester PA
That is the 2nd most meaningful thing I have found on the web.
1st Found the NAM.
2nd found away to ignore Scotts post.....
"Brace" for this Scott ......Cya
Last edited by Dave.O; Feb 11, 2008 at 09:44 AM.
Whatever though...have fun and maybe we'll be privileged to add each other to our ignore lists
Don't think it has anything to do with the opinion itself. More likely its the "you have to prove your views are valid while I don't" attitude.
I have no problem with your opinion. Just was raising an argument against it to see if maybe your theory has a basis in something other than a guess.
I have no problem with your opinion. Just was raising an argument against it to see if maybe your theory has a basis in something other than a guess.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
And your's isn't based on assumption? I see no data to support your views. All of the posts are strictly opinions. There is no data available anywhere to support any of our views except for our own experiences.
The views supporting the improvements to the handling of our cars is simply based on the "feel" of the car. I have seen no evidence other than that. The fact that I am a bit skeptical of these claims is my only fault here. I did in fact buy the OMP upper bar based on others claims of improvements and the fact that it being the only bar that is installed between the towers as opposed to on top of them. This configuration would allow a much better resistance to any lateral forces. I am not totally convinced that it does give me $150 worth of handling improvement, but it does look good under the bonnet.
Having seen the cabrio braces installed on an R53, I can see absolutely no benefit. They are not in a location nor are they really long enough to add any real support to the cradle. But if you feel like they are worth it, more power to ya. I just don't like to see folks waste their money on parts with little to no benefit.
The views supporting the improvements to the handling of our cars is simply based on the "feel" of the car. I have seen no evidence other than that. The fact that I am a bit skeptical of these claims is my only fault here. I did in fact buy the OMP upper bar based on others claims of improvements and the fact that it being the only bar that is installed between the towers as opposed to on top of them. This configuration would allow a much better resistance to any lateral forces. I am not totally convinced that it does give me $150 worth of handling improvement, but it does look good under the bonnet.
Having seen the cabrio braces installed on an R53, I can see absolutely no benefit. They are not in a location nor are they really long enough to add any real support to the cradle. But if you feel like they are worth it, more power to ya. I just don't like to see folks waste their money on parts with little to no benefit.
Problem with suspension mods is that they've always been hard to quantify -- even lap times can be attributed to other factors (ex. was the driver pushing harder the second time around with the suspension mod because he "thought" his car could handle it better?). I've heard of some 'tests' but nothing as conclusive as engine, intake or exhaust mods: "hey, I threw my car on the dyno before and after and saw that hp and torque . . . "
So -- if we all wait around for hard number data, there's going to be a lot of suspension mods, including rear sway bars, sitting around on the marketplace. Not saying all mods are worth getting just because vendors claim they are . . . but that's why NAM is great. I researched the USS and found in previous threads discussing the very same points brought up on this one that about 30 people recommended it and only 2 did not. . . so I got it, and now I'm number 31 who recommends it.
Obviously, some aren't convinced by this type of product feedback, and that's certainly alright. Frankly I don't have a dog in the fight -- what do I care if M7 sells 1 or 1000 of these? -- I'm just giving my input to help others in the same way others' input helped me.
Take it for what it's worth -- or better yet, if considering one, find someone in your area motoring club with one and see if you can test drive it.
Either way-- Happy Motoring!
So -- if we all wait around for hard number data, there's going to be a lot of suspension mods, including rear sway bars, sitting around on the marketplace. Not saying all mods are worth getting just because vendors claim they are . . . but that's why NAM is great. I researched the USS and found in previous threads discussing the very same points brought up on this one that about 30 people recommended it and only 2 did not. . . so I got it, and now I'm number 31 who recommends it.
Obviously, some aren't convinced by this type of product feedback, and that's certainly alright. Frankly I don't have a dog in the fight -- what do I care if M7 sells 1 or 1000 of these? -- I'm just giving my input to help others in the same way others' input helped me.
Take it for what it's worth -- or better yet, if considering one, find someone in your area motoring club with one and see if you can test drive it.
Either way-- Happy Motoring!
Last edited by eager2own; Feb 13, 2008 at 04:39 AM.
3rd Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 249
Likes: 0
One thing that is being overlooked, however, is that "feel" is more important than many would have you believe. If the car doesn't feel solid, I'm less likely to push it hard even if it CAN go a little faster. I will probably get better lap times from a car that FEELS more planted, all else being equal.
It's called confidence. I feel more connected with the vehicle, I feel it is more predictable and therefore I can push it closer to its limits without having to guess what's happening underneath.
It doesn't matter if my lap time was only due to my perceived increase in performance. If said perception is due to the mod in question, the mod holds value for me.
There are those out there that would not spend $100 just to make the car feel better if it could not actually go faster. That is their choice. However, I am willing to pay for the "feel."
Scott, you may believe that to be a waste of money. I don't.
It's called confidence. I feel more connected with the vehicle, I feel it is more predictable and therefore I can push it closer to its limits without having to guess what's happening underneath.
It doesn't matter if my lap time was only due to my perceived increase in performance. If said perception is due to the mod in question, the mod holds value for me.
There are those out there that would not spend $100 just to make the car feel better if it could not actually go faster. That is their choice. However, I am willing to pay for the "feel."
Scott, you may believe that to be a waste of money. I don't.
Well, I installed the cabrio diagonal braces yesterday, and did bit of twisty driving with them. My conclusion is that they are a significant improvement, and are certainly the best bang-for-the-buck suspension parts I've found. Works much better than I had expected.
The improvements they make are broad and profound. I'll post more detailed comments later over on the diagonal brace thread, where there has been less troll-like activity so far.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=100375
The improvements they make are broad and profound. I'll post more detailed comments later over on the diagonal brace thread, where there has been less troll-like activity so far.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=100375
Last edited by OldRick; Feb 15, 2008 at 08:41 AM.
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
OK, got it in last week (2/26/08) and installed it. The "feel" is better, after doing some driving in fairly twisty areas. It also feels a little tighter in many of the areas in which I drive on a regular basis. Will it make my car faster? I doubt it. Will I track or autocross with it? Nope, I simply wanted a little tighter feel on my regular driving. Overall impression is good bang for the buck.
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
From: Ephrata Washington
This was a tuff thread to get through. I will tell you way some time in our push forward to get more out of Mini's we loose site of what the true end point is.
We all want better handling regardlessly of what style of Mini you have. So with that said if something has been added to the cabrio because of the lack of frame support from the loss of the top it is a no brainier that when applied to a standard model it will add to firming up your ride. We can take the math,engineering and personnel views but what it adds up to is how it feels and performs for that person.
May view is there is right and wrong for the dollar value and the bad thing is those that are uninformed don't always select well. Problem being is the uninformed choice makes the choice a to what is on the market not to what fits me.
We all want better handling regardlessly of what style of Mini you have. So with that said if something has been added to the cabrio because of the lack of frame support from the loss of the top it is a no brainier that when applied to a standard model it will add to firming up your ride. We can take the math,engineering and personnel views but what it adds up to is how it feels and performs for that person.
May view is there is right and wrong for the dollar value and the bad thing is those that are uninformed don't always select well. Problem being is the uninformed choice makes the choice a to what is on the market not to what fits me.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 987
Likes: 30
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
After long discussion on this thread, I have decided and bought the OMP lower brace at www.driversedgeautosport.com here in Vancouver for C$ 88 (12% tax included). Good deal indeed.
The brace is light and quality looks very good however there were no bolts included.
As I have not been under the car yet, is there an existing bolt where it is suppose to be bolted that I can re-use? If new bolts are suggested, what size and length should I buy?
Thanks.
Ed
The brace is light and quality looks very good however there were no bolts included.
As I have not been under the car yet, is there an existing bolt where it is suppose to be bolted that I can re-use? If new bolts are suggested, what size and length should I buy?
Thanks.
Ed