Suspension Strut Tower or Underside Brace? Another one..
OVERDRIVE
Joined: May 2005
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From: San Francisco
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: L.A ca
Randy
M7 Tuning
Have and will be installing the TSW underbrace on my cabrio. I would do the M7 for the anti mushroom and upper brace but am not crazy about the solutions that have to be done to not distort the hood. (When doing the upper M7 brace)
Is there another upper brace that has big plates to prevent mushrooming that doesn't require crushing /removing some of the underhood pad? Or another bar that will co habitate with just the M7 plates? Oh and I have the Alta CAI if the changes clearances at all. Seem to remember a issue with some braces and either the stock air box or the Alta...
If not I lean towards just the M7 plates up top. I'm putting a higher value on not mushrooming than on the apparently small gain from a upper strut. I run 17 inch non run flats in a 45 profile so I'm not sure how great my risk of 'shrooming really is either.
Is there another upper brace that has big plates to prevent mushrooming that doesn't require crushing /removing some of the underhood pad? Or another bar that will co habitate with just the M7 plates? Oh and I have the Alta CAI if the changes clearances at all. Seem to remember a issue with some braces and either the stock air box or the Alta...
If not I lean towards just the M7 plates up top. I'm putting a higher value on not mushrooming than on the apparently small gain from a upper strut. I run 17 inch non run flats in a 45 profile so I'm not sure how great my risk of 'shrooming really is either.
Last edited by mmatarella; Jan 25, 2008 at 11:17 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 10
From: L.A ca
Have and will be installing the TSW underbrace on my cabrio. I would do the M7 for the anti mushroom and upper brace but am not crazy about the solutions that have to be done to not distort the hood. (When doing the upper M7 brace)
Is there another upper brace that has big plates to prevent mushrooming that doesn't require crushing /removing some of the underhood pad? Or another bar that will co habitate with just the M7 plates? Oh and I have the Alta CAI if the changes clearances at all. Seem to remember a issue with some braces and either the stock air box or the Alta...
If not I lean towards just the M7 plates up top. I'm putting a higher value on not mushrooming than on the apparently small gain from a upper strut. I run 17 inch non run flats in a 45 profile so I'm not sure how great my risk of 'shrooming really is either.
Is there another upper brace that has big plates to prevent mushrooming that doesn't require crushing /removing some of the underhood pad? Or another bar that will co habitate with just the M7 plates? Oh and I have the Alta CAI if the changes clearances at all. Seem to remember a issue with some braces and either the stock air box or the Alta...
If not I lean towards just the M7 plates up top. I'm putting a higher value on not mushrooming than on the apparently small gain from a upper strut. I run 17 inch non run flats in a 45 profile so I'm not sure how great my risk of 'shrooming really is either.
To answer a few of your questions personally I have not seen another bar with the end plates that would assist in the antimushroom situation as well as ours .As for adding another bar on top that would be a no as the plates are too thick to allow another bar to be used.I can say that you will notice a really big difference with the TSW brace as the cabriole begs for additional support whether it is ours or another companies.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Frankly, I used the soaking of the under-bonnet blanket method and it worked just fine. I think it requires a true and thorough effort, meaning a large spray bottle (filled and emptied twice) and meticulous soaking, so the blanket really absorbs a very large quantity of water. I wrapped the brace in plastic wrap first and slammed the hood when the blanket was thoroughly soaked then left it closed for over a full day. The indentation in the blanket that remained was sufficient to accept the extra height that was added by the STB and the bump in the bonnet really became a non-factor.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 10
From: L.A ca
Frankly, I used the soaking of the under-bonnet blanket method and it worked just fine. I think it requires a true and thorough effort, meaning a large spray bottle (filled and emptied twice) and meticulous soaking, so the blanket really absorbs a very large quantity of water. I wrapped the brace in plastic wrap first and slammed the hood when the blanket was thoroughly soaked then left it closed for over a full day. The indentation in the blanket that remained was sufficient to accept the extra height that was added by the STB and the bump in the bonnet really became a non-factor.
Thanks again for the nice write up.Randy
M7 Tuning
I have to disagree with that. Installed the M7 STB on an otherwise stock S-no USS in place to dampen the effect. It does make a difference particularly during sudden direction changes and high speed sweeping turns that normally cause the front end of the car to flex.
Looking at the designs of the Madness lower strut brace, the OMP lower strut bar and M7 USS. I would say that the M7 unit (which I will eventually buy) should do more to stiffen the whole car. The other units will do their jobs fantastically. The M7 USS just takes on more work.
As to a comment about bolts vs. welds I read above, aircraft are not welded together they are bolted and riveted together.
To answer the original question: A full car USS will do more to stiffen the car than either an upper or lower strut only brace. A lower strut only brace will stiffen the chassis, so will an upper. Neither will vastly improve on the other but together are better than just one.
Don't forget to do the back of the car, it flexes too. Randy has a massive rear brace that might be overkill for some uses. Other sites sell the rear upper brace that is only a traditional single bar. At under $100 it will also add a bit to stiffness. Either one will add to an overall improvement. Your wallet will decide how stiff you want your car in the end.
Do uppers first see if that is enough (you'll want to see how much more you can get out of it, so it won't be). Then buy parts to stiffen the bottom end of things. The reason I suggest that order is simple. The bottom of the struts are already tied together better than the tops. Go for the weakest points first.
Looking at the designs of the Madness lower strut brace, the OMP lower strut bar and M7 USS. I would say that the M7 unit (which I will eventually buy) should do more to stiffen the whole car. The other units will do their jobs fantastically. The M7 USS just takes on more work.
As to a comment about bolts vs. welds I read above, aircraft are not welded together they are bolted and riveted together.
To answer the original question: A full car USS will do more to stiffen the car than either an upper or lower strut only brace. A lower strut only brace will stiffen the chassis, so will an upper. Neither will vastly improve on the other but together are better than just one.
Don't forget to do the back of the car, it flexes too. Randy has a massive rear brace that might be overkill for some uses. Other sites sell the rear upper brace that is only a traditional single bar. At under $100 it will also add a bit to stiffness. Either one will add to an overall improvement. Your wallet will decide how stiff you want your car in the end.
Do uppers first see if that is enough (you'll want to see how much more you can get out of it, so it won't be). Then buy parts to stiffen the bottom end of things. The reason I suggest that order is simple. The bottom of the struts are already tied together better than the tops. Go for the weakest points first.
My car is a cabrio. So far I have ordered a Hotchkis 25.5 competition rear sway and Hotchkis upper strut bar. I dont know if they make a rear upper bar for the Cabrios do they? If so then maybe I would be better buying the minimadness brace and the rear upper strut bar.
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Joined: Jun 2003
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From: Oregon, USA
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2008
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Glad to hear that it'll work on my car. I think I'll take AllBlack05s's advice and do the top first, then the bottom later on. The anti-shroom effect of the M7 upper brace is a good thing! I'll add the Mini-Madness under body to my list. Thanks!
a fellow mini owner has it on his Cabrio and its fine set to the softest setting. Since its hollow its lighter but I think has the same effect of a 22mm.
The USS brace ties more points together than the other alternatives - a plus.
However, it could certainly work better if the it was welded at the corners like the Mini-Madness, or, even better, triangulated like the TSW. Unfortunately, the latter two don't tie as a many points of the chassis together, so presumably they could work better too.
One might hazard a guess that they would each work roughly as well, due to the shortcomings of each design. The OMP single-bar is probably not quite as effective as the others.
That leaves price and/or bling as a factor, with the OMP getting my bang-for-the-buck award. The M7 is certainly up there re. both bling and high price.
Whatever else you do, the Cabrio "diagonal brace" is a star in the bang-for-the-buck department, and should be your first choice if money matters to you. It is also the ONLY front brace that resists vertical impact to the front subframe in any way, and thus should be a nice improvement when used along with any of the other braces.
I note that maxmini uses the OEM brace, even though he doesn't sell it, which I view as a pretty good endorsement.
However, it could certainly work better if the it was welded at the corners like the Mini-Madness, or, even better, triangulated like the TSW. Unfortunately, the latter two don't tie as a many points of the chassis together, so presumably they could work better too.
One might hazard a guess that they would each work roughly as well, due to the shortcomings of each design. The OMP single-bar is probably not quite as effective as the others.
That leaves price and/or bling as a factor, with the OMP getting my bang-for-the-buck award. The M7 is certainly up there re. both bling and high price.
Whatever else you do, the Cabrio "diagonal brace" is a star in the bang-for-the-buck department, and should be your first choice if money matters to you. It is also the ONLY front brace that resists vertical impact to the front subframe in any way, and thus should be a nice improvement when used along with any of the other braces.
I note that maxmini uses the OEM brace, even though he doesn't sell it, which I view as a pretty good endorsement.
Last edited by OldRick; Feb 4, 2008 at 10:11 AM.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,446
Likes: 10
From: L.A ca
The USS brace ties more points together than the other alternatives - a plus.
However, it could certainly work better if the it was welded at the corners like the Mini-Madness, or, even better, triangulated like the TSW. Unfortunately, the latter two don't tie as a many points of the chassis together, so presumably they could work better too.
One might hazard a guess that they would each work roughly as well, due to the shortcomings of each design. The OMP single-bar is probably not quite as effective as the others.
That leaves price and/or bling as a factor, with the OMP getting my bang-for-the-buck award. The M7 is certainly up there re. both bling and high price.
Whatever else you do, the Cabrio "diagonal brace" is a star in the bang-for-the-buck department, and should be your first choice if money matters to you. It is also the ONLY front brace that resists vertical impact to the front subframe in any way, and thus should be a nice improvement when used along with any of the other braces.
I note that maxmini uses the OEM brace, even though he doesn't sell it, which I view as a pretty good endorsement.
However, it could certainly work better if the it was welded at the corners like the Mini-Madness, or, even better, triangulated like the TSW. Unfortunately, the latter two don't tie as a many points of the chassis together, so presumably they could work better too.
One might hazard a guess that they would each work roughly as well, due to the shortcomings of each design. The OMP single-bar is probably not quite as effective as the others.
That leaves price and/or bling as a factor, with the OMP getting my bang-for-the-buck award. The M7 is certainly up there re. both bling and high price.
Whatever else you do, the Cabrio "diagonal brace" is a star in the bang-for-the-buck department, and should be your first choice if money matters to you. It is also the ONLY front brace that resists vertical impact to the front subframe in any way, and thus should be a nice improvement when used along with any of the other braces.
I note that maxmini uses the OEM brace, even though he doesn't sell it, which I view as a pretty good endorsement.
As for welding verses bolts , as one of the other members posted earlier if you can bolt a airplane together it can't be all bad. The way the pieces are notched and then bolted together make for all the strength necessary to do the job. I have the first prototype unit still on my car and it is as solid as the day we put it on.
Randy
M7 Tuning
Randy
M7 Tuning
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Joined: Jul 2004
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PS: It's easier to see the convertible braces when they are painted red! :D
Do they do anything that I can notice for performance/handling? Not at all.
Do they look cool? I think so.
Are they different? On a hard-top, yes... especially when painted red.
Do I like the idea of reducing flex? Sure.
Do I have any data to show that they do anything good for the car? No... but this is NAM... it's never stopped anyone before!
Do they do anything that I can notice for performance/handling? Not at all.
Do they look cool? I think so.
Are they different? On a hard-top, yes... especially when painted red.
Do I like the idea of reducing flex? Sure.
Do I have any data to show that they do anything good for the car? No... but this is NAM... it's never stopped anyone before!
Last edited by agranger; Feb 4, 2008 at 11:28 AM.