Suspension M7 coilovers ... mystery solved!
#126
08-21-2007, 08:17 AM
I've read every thread about these coil overs. At every turn of the road through their journey to coming to the market... people have been "asking" questions about country of origin.
However from my pov as a rep for a company that sells imported goods (chinese, european, and middle eastern) these weren't truly questions. Just poorly worded threats. You people ask for information with such angst that as a rep i wouldn't dare answer the question. You have made it clear that only one answer will please you (which you barely have a right to know as a consumer) so why even answer. Take your money else where and stop asking in such a combative way.
As a consumer you aren't entitled to any information. Here's a few examples.
1) when you bought your very german/british bmw brand mini... did the sales man proudly proclaim that the engine from it was made in brasil and could also be found in dodge neons?
2) when you buy a computer do you request what sub dell uses when purchasing ram and what IQ's they are using?
3) When you purchase your rolex watch do you request information from them on where each gear was machined and weather the quartz drive uses quartz from europe or china (i guarentee it comes from china btw)
4) when you buy an ipod from the all american company apple... do you request to know where the micro hard drives are made? and god forbid... what country it is actually produced in?
This is part of manufactering. Denying it is simply turning your back on how things work. You as a consumer are entitled to nothing... if you want to be prevy to certian pieces of information become an investor. then you will truly know. My druthers is 30-50% of the parts of these so called elitist euro manufacteres you know and love are outsourcing parts.
However from my pov as a rep for a company that sells imported goods (chinese, european, and middle eastern) these weren't truly questions. Just poorly worded threats. You people ask for information with such angst that as a rep i wouldn't dare answer the question. You have made it clear that only one answer will please you (which you barely have a right to know as a consumer) so why even answer. Take your money else where and stop asking in such a combative way.
As a consumer you aren't entitled to any information. Here's a few examples.
1) when you bought your very german/british bmw brand mini... did the sales man proudly proclaim that the engine from it was made in brasil and could also be found in dodge neons?
2) when you buy a computer do you request what sub dell uses when purchasing ram and what IQ's they are using?
3) When you purchase your rolex watch do you request information from them on where each gear was machined and weather the quartz drive uses quartz from europe or china (i guarentee it comes from china btw)
4) when you buy an ipod from the all american company apple... do you request to know where the micro hard drives are made? and god forbid... what country it is actually produced in?
This is part of manufactering. Denying it is simply turning your back on how things work. You as a consumer are entitled to nothing... if you want to be prevy to certian pieces of information become an investor. then you will truly know. My druthers is 30-50% of the parts of these so called elitist euro manufacteres you know and love are outsourcing parts.
2. I don't buy Dell because of their poor quality. And yes, I do research the components I use. For a long time I would not buy Abit boards because they were using capacitors from a Taiwanese factory with a bad reputation.
3. No I didn't. I bought it based on reputation. I did make sure it said Rolex. No body asked M7 where every individual part of the coilover was made. Just where the whole thing was made. Duh. :impatient
4. Once again, the information is freely available. Not being kept a secret and certainly not being lied about.
Your attitude that the consumer does not have the right to know what their buying... well it speaks for itself.
But once again, to bring it back on topic. PETER FROM M7 LIED TO CUSTOMER!!! All the grand standing about anything else will not change that. And at this point it doesn't seem like he will even man up to it.
Last edited by goaljnky; 08-21-2007 at 08:20 AM.
#127
08-21-2007, 08:19 AM
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answers to 1 and 2 for me are yes... cuase this stuff does matter to me.. I do mind what ram... etc etc... and don't buy dell LOL
also as a customer I am investing...
I am not saying I disagree with you... just pointing out there is another side to this..
in the end... I buy what I like/feel is best.. I do the reseach to find out what I can... so that I can make an educated desicion... some times by trial and error... I guess I am disagreeing on some stuff... like my right to know what I am buying... but over all... I really don't care LOL... cause I'll buy what I want...
also as a customer I am investing...
I am not saying I disagree with you... just pointing out there is another side to this..
in the end... I buy what I like/feel is best.. I do the reseach to find out what I can... so that I can make an educated desicion... some times by trial and error... I guess I am disagreeing on some stuff... like my right to know what I am buying... but over all... I really don't care LOL... cause I'll buy what I want...
#128
08-21-2007, 08:19 AM
p.s. it wasn't just abit buying those caps. it was everyone.
#129
08-21-2007, 08:23 AM
#130
08-21-2007, 08:27 AM
in a sense yes... however in this case giving country of origin will clearly give a way the supplier. so no.
#131
08-21-2007, 08:28 AM
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What do you mean? M7 sure does have a page: http://www.m7tuning.com/parts/produc...eefb362cff1e25
P.S. Has anyone been to, or seen the M7 engineering facility?
P.S. Has anyone been to, or seen the M7 engineering facility?
I was lumping M7 and the Korean company together as one entity. Obviously someone did some engineering whether it be M7 or the Korean company.So, based on the little information on the M7 page, versus the info on the Bilstein page, can we discuss "engineering" issues?
#132
08-21-2007, 08:36 AM
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A lot of bs and people that don't know what they are talking about in this thread. My business deals with china on a moment to moment basis. It doesn't work like a lot of you think it works. Our production lines are as good if not better then our production lines out of europe. Simple as that.
As far as tuner vs. engineer partner. They are all loaded questions. To date I would not consider any one in this industry a true "tuner". That word gets tossed around like child in a divorce settlement.
To be a tuner you must present a full package imo. By that standard no one is really doing that in the industry. And from what I know about design, engineering and supply/demand. That is barely possible in a market as small as the mini community. It's not possible for m7 to design a c/o unit ground up. It's not possible for rmw to machine their own pistons and weld their own collectors. So by the strict definition of the word. They are still not a tuner.
But do you want to be able to afford things for these cars? I mean do you want to be paying 4k for coil overs? Do you want to be paying $15,000 to push your car past 250whp.
I'll answer for you... you don't and you won't. So looking to an experienced sub/manufacterer is the only answer. If you bring specifications and experience to the table they create what you are looking for. (that is if they are talented and good at their field) M7 has been doing this with all of their products. It's what most of these so called mini "tuners" do. Some are more or less involved then others.
It's your job to sift through the bs and make an educated buying decision.
I will tell you this though. When you are a sales man... or repping a company, and some one says to you in so many words. "I hate asian products and will not buy them... regardless of how good they may be... I just don't trust asians to make good stuf. So where is your product made now?"
What answer are you going to give. I'm not supporting vendors lying to customers... but clearly when some one approaches you in this manor... they are a bigot customer. Nothing you say will appease them. So you have three choices. 1) tell them what they want to hear 2) lie to them 3) avoid the question.
think logically people.
As far as tuner vs. engineer partner. They are all loaded questions. To date I would not consider any one in this industry a true "tuner". That word gets tossed around like child in a divorce settlement.
To be a tuner you must present a full package imo. By that standard no one is really doing that in the industry. And from what I know about design, engineering and supply/demand. That is barely possible in a market as small as the mini community. It's not possible for m7 to design a c/o unit ground up. It's not possible for rmw to machine their own pistons and weld their own collectors. So by the strict definition of the word. They are still not a tuner.
But do you want to be able to afford things for these cars? I mean do you want to be paying 4k for coil overs? Do you want to be paying $15,000 to push your car past 250whp.
I'll answer for you... you don't and you won't. So looking to an experienced sub/manufacterer is the only answer. If you bring specifications and experience to the table they create what you are looking for. (that is if they are talented and good at their field) M7 has been doing this with all of their products. It's what most of these so called mini "tuners" do. Some are more or less involved then others.
It's your job to sift through the bs and make an educated buying decision.
I will tell you this though. When you are a sales man... or repping a company, and some one says to you in so many words. "I hate asian products and will not buy them... regardless of how good they may be... I just don't trust asians to make good stuf. So where is your product made now?"
What answer are you going to give. I'm not supporting vendors lying to customers... but clearly when some one approaches you in this manor... they are a bigot customer. Nothing you say will appease them. So you have three choices. 1) tell them what they want to hear 2) lie to them 3) avoid the question.
think logically people.
This thread really should be broken into two threads:
1. Peter Lied OMG Let's lynch him!
2. Product Quality vs. Country of Origin
Last edited by PlayPlay; 08-21-2007 at 08:49 AM.
#133
08-21-2007, 08:51 AM
I've read every thread about these coil overs. At every turn of the road through their journey to coming to the market... people have been "asking" questions about country of origin.
However from my pov as a rep for a company that sells imported goods (chinese, european, and middle eastern) these weren't truly questions. Just poorly worded threats. You people ask for information with such angst that as a rep i wouldn't dare answer the question. You have made it clear that only one answer will please you (which you barely have a right to know as a consumer) so why even answer. Take your money else where and stop asking in such a combative way.
As a consumer you aren't entitled to any information. Here's a few examples.
1) when you bought your very german/british bmw brand mini... did the sales man proudly proclaim that the engine from it was made in brasil and could also be found in dodge neons?
2) when you buy a computer do you request what sub dell uses when purchasing ram and what IQ's they are using?
3) When you purchase your rolex watch do you request information from them on where each gear was machined and weather the quartz drive uses quartz from europe or china (i guarentee it comes from china btw)
4) when you buy an ipod from the all american company apple... do you request to know where the micro hard drives are made? and god forbid... what country it is actually produced in?
This is part of manufactering. Denying it is simply turning your back on how things work. You as a consumer are entitled to nothing... if you want to be prevy to certian pieces of information become an investor. then you will truly know. My druthers is 30-50% of the parts of these so called elitist euro manufacteres you know and love are outsourcing parts.
However from my pov as a rep for a company that sells imported goods (chinese, european, and middle eastern) these weren't truly questions. Just poorly worded threats. You people ask for information with such angst that as a rep i wouldn't dare answer the question. You have made it clear that only one answer will please you (which you barely have a right to know as a consumer) so why even answer. Take your money else where and stop asking in such a combative way.
As a consumer you aren't entitled to any information. Here's a few examples.
1) when you bought your very german/british bmw brand mini... did the sales man proudly proclaim that the engine from it was made in brasil and could also be found in dodge neons?
2) when you buy a computer do you request what sub dell uses when purchasing ram and what IQ's they are using?
3) When you purchase your rolex watch do you request information from them on where each gear was machined and weather the quartz drive uses quartz from europe or china (i guarentee it comes from china btw)
4) when you buy an ipod from the all american company apple... do you request to know where the micro hard drives are made? and god forbid... what country it is actually produced in?
This is part of manufactering. Denying it is simply turning your back on how things work. You as a consumer are entitled to nothing... if you want to be prevy to certian pieces of information become an investor. then you will truly know. My druthers is 30-50% of the parts of these so called elitist euro manufacteres you know and love are outsourcing parts.
for disposable consumer goods I agree with you, ... but the Mini for most on this board is a passion... one might not care where his computer, cell phone, jeans, etc come from but, as I do, the products that affect my passion I am much more discriminant.... If this was a 63 vette split window I would not put in a replacement part made anywhere but in the US regardless of quality..... some people buy their fishing rods at WAl-Mart for $9.95 some buy bamboo fly rods for $2500...it is still fishing. The guy who spends $2500 researches and knows who the craftsman is that made his rod.....has pride in ownership and for the most part just enjoys fishing with this rod for the pleasure of it... really the fish catching is secondary...it's a hobby...passion.. The Mini at this level is passion and many consumers want to know what is going into their cars..... when they cruise their is pride of ownership and for some that does not include parts made in asia and for some that includes parts not mad in (any country here)...this is an individuals choice.
M7s choice is something that only Peter can explain...if he chooses to
Last edited by SpiderX; 08-21-2007 at 08:55 AM.
#134
08-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Regarding country of origin:
There ARE stock parts on MINIs and BMWs that come from asia. Before my current job, I worked for Honeywell, and we were working on several sensors for BMW, and although the final assembly of the sensors was going to be done in the Czech Republic, the circuit boards are manufactured in Malaysia.
Auto companies around the world, including the German ones, buy parts that are sourced globally. In our case, the micromachined silica sense die was manufactured in Berlin, the circuit assembly in Malaysia, and the final assembly in the Czech Republic. And that is just for one sensor that sells from us to the OEM for under $5.
don't fool yourself into thinking that you have a car made of parts from one specific place.
What is really important, and where the true differences lie, is in the systems that the customers have in place for design and quality. I can tell you with absolute certainty that BMW had stricter design standards than VW/Audi, including testing criteria. Quality criteria for our products was the same regardless of where it was sourced.
I'm always slightly suspicious of 'tuners' and their products because I know how much testing goes into the OEM products. I'm not saying the 'tuner' products are not well made, but they don't have the testing behind them that the OEM products do.
Regarding M7 - were they the company selling the 'plasma booster' a few years ago? If so, I'd be wary of their products in most cases.
(I do really like their strut tower bar, though.)
There ARE stock parts on MINIs and BMWs that come from asia. Before my current job, I worked for Honeywell, and we were working on several sensors for BMW, and although the final assembly of the sensors was going to be done in the Czech Republic, the circuit boards are manufactured in Malaysia.
Auto companies around the world, including the German ones, buy parts that are sourced globally. In our case, the micromachined silica sense die was manufactured in Berlin, the circuit assembly in Malaysia, and the final assembly in the Czech Republic. And that is just for one sensor that sells from us to the OEM for under $5.
don't fool yourself into thinking that you have a car made of parts from one specific place.
What is really important, and where the true differences lie, is in the systems that the customers have in place for design and quality. I can tell you with absolute certainty that BMW had stricter design standards than VW/Audi, including testing criteria. Quality criteria for our products was the same regardless of where it was sourced.
I'm always slightly suspicious of 'tuners' and their products because I know how much testing goes into the OEM products. I'm not saying the 'tuner' products are not well made, but they don't have the testing behind them that the OEM products do.
Regarding M7 - were they the company selling the 'plasma booster' a few years ago? If so, I'd be wary of their products in most cases.
(I do really like their strut tower bar, though.)
#135
08-21-2007, 08:59 AM
Although, some of us are not as nonchalant about being lied to as others.
#136
08-21-2007, 09:01 AM
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The Mini at this level is passion and many consumers want to know what is going into their cars
Just don't trash an entire continent in the process. Being as specific as possible about product design and country of origin would probably prevent some of the controversy. Chinese lead paint on some toys does not equal Japanese forged BBS wheels nor Korean coilovers.
Last edited by PlayPlay; 08-21-2007 at 09:04 AM.
#137
08-21-2007, 09:06 AM
Jim
#139
08-21-2007, 09:24 AM
My Rolex was the worst time piece I have ever owned...it got lots of compliments and attention (stainless "Daytona")
It was stolen.... I have a Breitling now and my "daily driver" is a Timex sports watch..
#140
08-21-2007, 09:39 AM
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btw, Carl Zeiss has a production facility in Asia, and I bet the quality is first rate due to design and quality control. This is probably not true for Korean shock assemblies, but might be...
#141
08-21-2007, 09:43 AM
I crave a Breitling! Incredibly well designed and made watches, but a little "big" for my aesthetic tastes. My ultimate watch would be a Patek Philippe, but it's one of those or a RMW head and all the associated goodies!
btw, Carl Zeiss has a production facility in Asia, and I bet the quality is first rate due to design and quality control. This is probably not true for Korean shock assemblies, but might be...
btw, Carl Zeiss has a production facility in Asia, and I bet the quality is first rate due to design and quality control. This is probably not true for Korean shock assemblies, but might be...
#142
08-21-2007, 09:53 AM
I find it funny how everyone is quick to hang Peter, but NOBODY actually heard the actual conversations.....
Also, most products are produced overseas where production costs are lower. Even Germany is doing this as they have done it with my fencing gear that I used to buy. Now it is all made in China.
Just don't lick the paint due to high lead content....
#143
08-21-2007, 09:53 AM
Regarding country of origin:
There ARE stock parts on MINIs and BMWs that come from asia. Before my current job, I worked for Honeywell, and we were working on several sensors for BMW, and although the final assembly of the sensors was going to be done in the Czech Republic, the circuit boards are manufactured in Malaysia.
Auto companies around the world, including the German ones, buy parts that are sourced globally. In our case, the micromachined silica sense die was manufactured in Berlin, the circuit assembly in Malaysia, and the final assembly in the Czech Republic. And that is just for one sensor that sells from us to the OEM for under $5.
don't fool yourself into thinking that you have a car made of parts from one specific place.
What is really important, and where the true differences lie, is in the systems that the customers have in place for design and quality. I can tell you with absolute certainty that BMW had stricter design standards than VW/Audi, including testing criteria. Quality criteria for our products was the same regardless of where it was sourced.
I'm always slightly suspicious of 'tuners' and their products because I know how much testing goes into the OEM products. I'm not saying the 'tuner' products are not well made, but they don't have the testing behind them that the OEM products do.
Regarding M7 - were they the company selling the 'plasma booster' a few years ago? If so, I'd be wary of their products in most cases.
(I do really like their strut tower bar, though.)
There ARE stock parts on MINIs and BMWs that come from asia. Before my current job, I worked for Honeywell, and we were working on several sensors for BMW, and although the final assembly of the sensors was going to be done in the Czech Republic, the circuit boards are manufactured in Malaysia.
Auto companies around the world, including the German ones, buy parts that are sourced globally. In our case, the micromachined silica sense die was manufactured in Berlin, the circuit assembly in Malaysia, and the final assembly in the Czech Republic. And that is just for one sensor that sells from us to the OEM for under $5.
don't fool yourself into thinking that you have a car made of parts from one specific place.
What is really important, and where the true differences lie, is in the systems that the customers have in place for design and quality. I can tell you with absolute certainty that BMW had stricter design standards than VW/Audi, including testing criteria. Quality criteria for our products was the same regardless of where it was sourced.
I'm always slightly suspicious of 'tuners' and their products because I know how much testing goes into the OEM products. I'm not saying the 'tuner' products are not well made, but they don't have the testing behind them that the OEM products do.
Regarding M7 - were they the company selling the 'plasma booster' a few years ago? If so, I'd be wary of their products in most cases.
(I do really like their strut tower bar, though.)
#144
08-21-2007, 09:59 AM
as I stated before, the stb with those nice reinforcement plates is something I plan to add to both of our MINIs in the near future. I've inspected one at the Dragon and I feel that it is a quality bit of work. Plus, there is no clear alternative for that product.
#147
08-21-2007, 10:04 AM
I guess the real issue is that M7 told an outright lie about their products origins and given people's reaction, I really can't blame them. People are treating Korea now like they treated Japan way back when. It's pretty surprising seeing the quality of goods that come out of that country these days. Sure there's some cheap stuff still made their, but they also have a booming economy and are in a push to become an industrial and manufacturing powerhouse in the world. I own a surprising amount of Korean made items (Daewoo DVD player, Hyundai LCD monitor, etc.) and I chose it because, althuogh it wasn't top of the line, it was the best value for what it was capable of. All the products I've gotten from Korean manufacturers thusfar have been of exceptional quality and value.
#148
08-21-2007, 10:09 AM
I guess the real issue is that M7 told an outright lie about their products origins and given people's reaction, I really can't blame them. People are treating Korea now like they treated Japan way back when. It's pretty surprising seeing the quality of goods that come out of that country these days. Sure there's some cheap stuff still made their, but they also have a booming economy and are in a push to become an industrial and manufacturing powerhouse in the world. I own a surprising amount of Korean made items (Daewoo DVD player, Hyundai LCD monitor, etc.) and I chose it because, althuogh it wasn't top of the line, it was the best value for what it was capable of. All the products I've gotten from Korean manufacturers thusfar have been of exceptional quality and value.
#149
08-21-2007, 10:10 AM
I guess the real issue is that M7 told an outright lie about their products origins and given people's reaction, I really can't blame them. People are treating Korea now like they treated Japan way back when. It's pretty surprising seeing the quality of goods that come out of that country these days. Sure there's some cheap stuff still made their, but they also have a booming economy and are in a push to become an industrial and manufacturing powerhouse in the world. I own a surprising amount of Korean made items (Daewoo DVD player, Hyundai LCD monitor, etc.) and I chose it because, althuogh it wasn't top of the line, it was the best value for what it was capable of. All the products I've gotten from Korean manufacturers thusfar have been of exceptional quality and value.
#150
08-21-2007, 10:31 AM
Almost bought the Super Avenger and even on me it looked huge. Can't imagine how it looks on a person slight of build.
My gold / black dial Daytona was inherited and needs a general refirb. Wear it only on occasions to honor my father.
Have a collection of Tag-Heuers that all need to be refirbed. For some reason I was going through them on a yearly basis for a while.
What I really want is a Hublot Big Bang in Rose Gold w/ Carbon face and bracelet. Maybe for my 50th if things keep going well.
BTW, Peter has a watch fetish too.