If you've read some of my other posts, I've been sweating over timing retard, IATs and CA 91 octane "supreme" gas.... I've been trying to get retard free HP runs on pump gas and was having a hell of a time of it. And not even that hot of a day, 60-70 or so....

So I'd tried IK-24s, M7 180 Degree Thermostat, moving away from the HAI.... And none of them really had the effect I wanted (ie, the pinging got better, but didn't go away).

So 002 (Jeremy)sent me a PM mentioning something called "Sea Foam" (http://www.seafoamsales.com/motorTuneUp.htm). Turns out this is some nasty combo of petroleum distillates, and it can be used to clean your motor at home. The suggested cleaning is 1 can in a new gastank to clean filters, lines, the fuel rail and the injectors, a half can in the crankcase (Yikes!) for a very brief period, and sucking the other half can into the intake, so it can wet the valves, and decabonize the valves and the combustion chamber.

Well, needless to say, the crap works! After doing just the decarbonization, I found more even running, improved power, less knock and timing retard, and surprisingly, a bit of an improvement in MPG! And it's been over 100 out when I've been driving......

Here's a thread from an Audi forum that talks about it.....
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...threadid=62927

And here's a photo from that thread to pique your curiosity...



To get the stuff into the intake, I used a needle for inflating sports *****, a 1/4" plastic tube, and one of the intercooler boots I use for temp testing.....

If you all are interested, I can post some photos of the stuff I used.

Anyway, since our cars run so rich, the combustion chambers are probably pretty coated with carbon. This is a way to clean it in your driveway without spending $$$ for some shop to do it.

Matt

 

It would seem you are talking about a de-carbonization process. And you have checked for an absence of timing retard in the 100+ weather the S.F. bay area has been experiencing lately? (In all of the situations that you were experiencing it previously?) It would be great news to learn that the problems were due to carbon build-up and not some inherent problem with an octane appetite of the engine.

 

but seat of the pants, and organo-acoustics (my ears) say things are much better. In hindsight, this is where I should have started, but I didn't know you could decarbonize in your driveway for $20!

It's not perfect, but it's much better than it was, and that's with ambient 20-30 degrees HIGHER!

Shoot, for the $, it's worth a try and if it make things better, great, if not, at least only the cheapest option was a waste....

I'm currently on a V3 AGS and I have some ideas on how to help it with cooler air and the like..... I would have made the stuff up tonight, but for some reason my daugter only wanted Daddy tonight. My wife was pretty bummed.

Matt

 

Matt, indeed, if not much trouble, please share some photos! Thanks.

 

but I missed my big cloud of smoke!

Matt

 

Glad to see it worked for you.

I have another mini that I may do before and after timing runs with to help pacify the quantifiers, which I am a member of. It has a 15% pulley, 75k miles and never used any cleaners before. It should be a good example.

 

get before and after compression tests to see if the build up really displaced volume, or just provided nice hot spots..... I was going to do that, but I forgot to buy the compression tester...

Matt

ps, Thanks for the suggestion. I'm glad this stuff works so well. I was reading that having a shop do this for you is $100-$300! I looked at BK product offerings, and it's not easy to buy their stuff from the web site. IF it were, I would have some of their stuff instead, and it costs more.

 

You could also use the vent hose that runs from the Drivers side rocker cover to the intake tube. A small funnel should work.
I'd think blowing this through as much of the induction path as possible might be helpful as well.
For any folks that haven't looked, the IC horns, and I'm sure other bits, get pretty coated with oil.

 

Is the oil coating in the IC, boots, etc. that causes a portion of the carbonizing in the Mini. Does the addition of the Oil Catch Can stop some of the carbonizing or is it just foo-foo for the oil that seems present there.

 

The oil coating that builds up in the IC and partially relieved by the addition of an OCC may result in less thermal dissipation (and consequently, higher IATs), which could potentially cause some timing retardation, but I believe that the primary concern is the carbon buildup in the combustion chamber as the result of the MINI dumping fuel in open loop mode at 5000RPM+.

 

Funny enough, my pingings went away (in the current 100 degree weather, no less) after putting my MINI on the local dyno (two pulls with 91 octane, and two pulls with 100 octane). The technician informed me that after the fourth pull, my cat was glowing red hot. I suspect that the use of high-octane petrol burned off some of the carbon deposits that have been causing hotspots to occur.

I can't help but wonder how soon the carbon deposits would return after using Sea Foam or any other method of clearing up carbon buildup, since our cars run pig rich.

Thanks, 002 and Dr. O, for sharing your findings!

 

The Audi thread indicates that this is a two person job (one to keep the engine at 2k rpm and one to feed the Seafoam into the engine). Is this how you did it, or did you just dump the stuff down the IC boot with your needle and hose?

 

Me too...

As I've been doing overall horsepower testing with a performance computer for my insulated CAI, the pinging has either reduced or stopped. This testing involves running up to redline fast in 2nd gear, and I've done it probably a dozen times in the last week since I got my performance computer...

I suspect that in my case, by running up to redline so often lately (something I had never done before intentionally), I've essentially blown the carbon out of the heads. This is something I had heard about previously but really didn't believe would happen. Coincidentally, one smog guy that we've taken our cars to has always said to do this kind of thing before a smog test and you'll have an easier time passing.

My early conclusion, especially since the heat has not let up and the gasoline hasn't gotten better -- but the pinging seems to be gone -- is that this has happened.

Best,

-- Don

 

I should revise what I said earlier - it's not the high-octane petrol so much as the dyno pulls that burned off carbon deposits.

VGB, please keep us up-to-date on how long before the pinging returns (is it too cynical of me to believe that the pinging will resume eventually?).

 

But this stuff allows you to clean it out yourself, and you can dump a can of the stuff in your tank every 3-5 thousand miles for "maintenance".

My car has 73k on it, and I'd guess that I've been seeing some pinging that I worry about since about 50k. So if you do it every 25-40k, you should be pretty good (YMMV).

Matt

 

Touche!

My pinging began at 7,366 miles (as soon as I had a 2% overdrive crank pulley installed). I suppose tuning the AF ratio to be slightly less rich can help create less carbon deposits, but the "High Volume Injectors" thread suggests that dumping lots of fuel into the combustion chamber helps prevent lean conditions (and hence, pinging/knocking).

These two schools of thought aren't completely mutually exclusive, but if you were to combine them, it'd certainly require using Sea Foam much more often than every 25k-40k miles!

 

I honestly don't know what a good preventive maintenance plan would be for the stuff, and I'm sure it depends on lots of things. But the stuff is under $10 a bottle!

I know about using gas to cool the combustion chamber. Seems like a real expensive way to do water injection! But you don't have to worry about your water resevoir running dry.... But no wonder the gas milage of the S isn't that great. We're just using a lot of it (at wide open throttle) to just evaporate, and not burn! Grrrrr.....

But anyway, head to a Napa store and get a bottle. See if it help. Let us know what you find.

Matt

 

Sure, I'll keep track of it and let you know here.

Despite the heat I still love to drive around with the windows open so I'll know it when it happens.

I still have some more performance computer testing to do if we ever get a free, cool morning again, so more timed runs reving up to redline in 2nd are coming up.

After those are for the most part done, I may also throw a can of Sea Foam into the gas to try to clean out the fuel path...

Does Sea Foam degrade seals, gaskets, surface finishes or aluminum?

Best,

-- Don

P.S. My pinging began with the hot weather I think, but I really didn't notice it until I had thermal insulated my CAI, then the TB whistle and SC whyne were muted enough that I could hear the engine again.

 

and that it's all some sort of petroleum distillates..... But I don't know what stuff it is. All I know is that my car didn't fall apart!

Matt

ps, when I went to the counter to buy 4 cans (two for the Mini, and two for our MDX with over 70k on it), the counter guy said "Oh, your stocking up on the miracle cure!" I asked him what he was talking about. He said he started using the stuff about 7 years ago and it did so well with his car he hasn't stopped using it since!

 

Hmmm, cool. If he's been using it that long it should be pretty safe!

Thanks Matt and 002, this information is great...

002, if you consider it safe for your other MINI, it would be an interesting test if you red-lined it a few times to see if has the same effect of blowing the carbon out and stopping the pinging, like latte hiatus and I have experienced. This could be before before trying Sea Foam on it...

I just take it up to ~65 in 2nd gear, as fast as it will go there, have done it about a dozen times in the last week.

Best,

-- Don

 

is an interesting idea. But let me tell you, I do that all the time, and had the issue. So it's worth a shot, but I don't think it will work for all.

Also, if this happened on a dyno, what may be happening is that the ECU sees the temps rising, and dumps more fuel to cool the combustion. This may act like water injection, that can burn off the carbon as well.

Don't know if it's true, but it sure sounds good!

Matt

 

Somethimes I use my mini in the range of 5k-7k rpm range, but smoothly.. Not much on the gas pedal and I think it really changes the car.But my car is mostly used in the low range rpms, so it turns back quite shortly.. Maybe it is psychological though...

 

Floor it in second up to 7000 RPM. Hold on!

Matt

 

An interestin thread, thank you. I don't have a pre-ignition problem but I worry about timing, AF ratios and other things as my posts suggest.
A few observations, relevant I hope.
* when I first modded my car with Randy Webb's help, he discouraged me from getting IK22s saying that they were not necessary at high altitudes (5000ft+ here in Albuquerque).
* even though there is less oxygen here in north central NM, the ECU should be making adjustments constantly to ensure the proper AF to the engine?
* higher altitudes means less o2, lower HP -- I can attest to that -- and a richer engine, if the ECU is not adjusting perfectly.
* perhaps the Unichip changes the AF and timing in such a way as to prevent pre-ignition when otherwise the stock ECU would allow it?
* since installing a header and getting a new 91 octane map from Unichip, my gas mileage has gone up significantly! It's almost too good to believe, but I get about 340miles from the same tank I used to get 290 miles out of. And the header is causing my right foot to weigh more, I guarantee! My tail pipes are much cleaner -- less carbon soot is quite noticable.

I know these remarks are somewhat random, but my car appears to be running leaner and yet no pinging in mid-90s to 100 degF temperatures constantly here in these days. It also seems to be a function of the new Unichip maps for the header. Is this possible? I'm running an o2 simulator, btw.

cheers,

 

You also don't have to deal with CA gas.....

The 5000+ altitude helps lower density, putting off pinging and giving up some power.

Also, not all knock is audible. To really see if it's happening, you have to log timing.

Yes the Mini runs too rich and getting a tune to help with that will improve gas milage (but remember, the Mini uses extra gas to supress knock/ping/detonation).

You have a newer car, so you haven't had the time to build up the carbon like others have.

The ECU will take care of stuff if you're in closed loop mode. Think cruising. But when it's in open loop, it still looks at the manifold pressure and temp to figure out air density, and will squirt fuel as needed based on the air density measurements, so don't worry, the ECU will do fine with altitude changes.

And I'm sure that you're running an 02 sim because we're talking about a track car....... I'm really down on street cars with cats removed. But that's just me....

Matt