Not a Alarm or anything just a sorta thing to make you go HMMM!!! :

I decided to go for a series of 3 oil tests and have just received the results of my second test .

Hi Keith,
Attached is your latest Oil Sample report. The only areas of concern are Nitration and Oxidation.

I have included definitions of each so you wil understand the problems better than I could explain.

Typically changing the oil will reduce these levels back to normal, which you've already done.
(if you would like the definitions let me know via E-mail ,and I will furnish them to you .) b

I changed the Oil Myself directly after the run in period 1200 miles odd. I put in 5/30 Castrol Synthetic.
Next came the First official Oil change acording to the count down metre at 12333 miles, this is where I snatched my first sample which came back ALL OK . So 11133 miles on Castrol with good result .

Service department used MINI oil on this oil change .
Second oil change at 22258 which was 9925miles . of course Second oil test you know the result .
I changed the oil myself again ,with 5/30 Castrol synthetic. Will just have to see what gives with the third test .

 

Cool. What does this mean in layman's terms? Is it "OK" to leave the oil in for the MINI recommended service intervals of 10,000 miles?

Rock on,

-boognish
\

 

Has anyone done the Amsoil testing?

 

I personally would not leave the oil in for 10,000 miles. Nitration and oxidation usually refer to the presence of nitrogen compounds (one of which would concern me is nitric acid) and/or breakdown of the oil. A 10,000 mile oil change interval is more of a marketing ploy than good maintenance practice. MINI is only warranting the car for the first 50,000 miles or 4 years of ownership. If the engine has heart failure at the 50,001st mile, MINI is under no obligation to provide warranty coverage. If you want the engine to see 100,000+ miles, I personally would do more frequent oil and filter changes.

 

Using Castrol 5/30 Synthetic here. 109K and counting. Oil changes about every 5000 to 6000 miles....

 

Well Unfortunatly Being a Layperson myself in these matters ,I could not say for shure either way . All I know is that , what this does for me is put a doubt on MINI brand oil but that being said could it be also that Florida weather had a helping hand in giving the results it did.
Not a lot of people are having there oil tested ,so its hard to see if in fact this has happened before , or in fact how often , if it has .
Here are the definitions and the recomendation.Thats why I am not too alarmed by the results :::

In my opinion, no further action is needed other than changing the oil more frequently than done in the past - which should prevent high levels of Oxidation & Nitration.

Nitration -- specific to internal combustion engines, the formation of nitrogen oxides (NOx) during fuel combustion. NOx escapes the combustion area via ring blowby and reacts with water in the crankcase to form nitrous acid (HNO2), which can degrade the oil and increase oil viscosity. Nitration is a particular problem in gas engines due to relatively high combustion chamber temperatures.

Oxidation -- the chemical combination of a substance with oxygen. All petroleum products are subject to oxidation, with resultant degradation of their composition and performance. The organic acids formed by oxidation are corrosive to metals. The process is accelerated by heat, light, metal catalysts and the presence of water, acids, or solid contaminants. The basic oxidation process for hydrocarbons is summarized as:
Organic peroxides form as the first reaction products;

Peroxides catalyze continued formation of alcohols, aldehydes, ketones, and organic acids;

Alcohols, etc. further oxidize to form high molecular-weight, oil insoluble polymers;

Polymers settle out as sludges, varnishes and gums.

My oil will be changed more frequently and I personaly will not be using MINI brand oil.

 

I couldn't agree more with the 5,000 to 6,000 miles between changes. I'll bet that the compression and cylinder leak down results at 109,000 miles are pretty close to what they were when the car had 10,000 miles.

 

I think this comment says it all - change the oil and filter more frequently than the 10,000 mile interval.

Personally, I doubt that if you switched to brand X and kept the same 10,000 change interval, you would see much of a reduction in oxidation and/or nitration. I am sure that the AMSOil fans have a different opinion on this; if you want to try AMSOil as your next fill, by all means try it. Just don't be surprised if you still have the oxidation and/or nitration issue again. My belief (based on my personal experience) of the best course of action is to change the oil and filter at 5,000 or 6,000 mile intervals. If you wanted to test out the theory of more frequent oil and filter changes, then presuming your latest fill is the MINI oil (and IF you replaced the filter at the same time you changed the oil), send a sample off for analysis at 5,000 miles. If there is no oxidation and /or nitration with the MINI oil, you have your answer.

 

Did you observe the MINI recommended break-in period on your car? There's a second school of thought that believes its better to drive it outrageously hard right out of the box.

It would be interesting to see a comparrison of oil test samples from each school.

 

I would have to agree.... I changed the oil at 2500 just b/c it was a new engine and I was nervous (I almost changed at 500 and 1000 like in my old cars)... I changed it once more before 10K service and now I will do it every 5K.... Mini's recomendations make me nervous- but being the AnalRetentive-TypeA-ObsessiveCompulsive type has works so far (and the drugs are wonderful ) since all of my cars have passed 150K before falling apart (I lived in the salt belt so the body and electricals went before the engine).

 

I've always been one to change the oil more often then the book says. I figure that it's cheap protection. Even synthetic oil is cheaper then one engine repair. I don't even mind having to pay for the oil change if I don't have time to do it myself.

I'm interested in knowing how much of a difference changing the filter every oil change makes. Sure there would be some contamination of the new oil with the old (but you'd get that anyway unless you did an engine flush with each change).

The only reason I ask is that for many people, the extra time and mess to change the filter might cause them to not do the work themselves and wait until a 10,000 mile mark. Where if they could just drain and fill, they might go ahead and do that.

Assuming that your engine isn't creating a lot of particulates or sludge (synthetic oil is supposed to help here), does changing the filter every 5000 make a significant difference? Meaning, by not changing the filter, are you significantly reducing the benefit of a 5000 mile oil-only change?

Just stiring the pot, I'm sure I'm setting myself up for a smack-down

-Mike

 

Good point Mike. I would say the only caveat is that the filter itself would contain probably around 10-12 oz of oil as well, and when you drain the pan it probably doesn't all flow out. That being said, I know folks who just change their filter every other oil change because if you are changing the oil at 3-5k and the filter is designed for 10-15, then it's really no big deal for the filter itself.

I would always change the filter myself, since it's a cheap item compared to the cost of the car. I also had an experience with one of my old cars where I had a filter fall apart on me. Fortunately it was only in there for a few thousand miles, but the inner screen had broken away and the filter material had a tear meaning that I was getting very little filtration. Had I left that in there for 10k, I would have been pretty worried.

 

If you have bought into the concept of changing the oil on a sooner than 10,000 mile interval, what makes you think that you should not change the filter as well? The whole reason for more frequent oil changes is to remove old oil and replace it with fresh oil. Given the relatively small oil capacity of the MINI's engine, you want to get as much old oil out as possible. That includes the 10-12 oz. of oil that is resident in the filter and filter housing. Separately, the filter is present to remove particles that could cause damage to the engine's bearings. Are you really saying that you can't afford the cost of a new filter at the same time that you just paid ~$25 for new oil????

Here is another way to consider the impact of the 10-12 ounces of old oil that remains in the filter and filter housing: 4 quarts of new oil is 128 ounces (4.8 quarts for oil change including filter; say .8 quart for the filter and filter housing); the 10-12 ounces that remain in the filter is a 10% contamination of the new oil. Do you really want to start off with the new fill contaminated by 10%????

 

Supports what many automobile enthusiasts believe... just change the oil every 5k with full synthetic oil and put in a new OEM filter.... to be safe, one can change with mini synthetic/mini filter at 1300 post break-in too, but that is probably overkill

I will follow recommended MINI oil/filter change intervals, if a manufacturer warranties the engine to 150,000 miles...

 

Thats funny because toyota and honda have sold millions of cars based on thier reliability far beyond the warranty.

You have three choices
1. Trust the people who want to sell you oil and change every 3k
2. Trust yourself because after all you have a chemical engineering degree and years of experiance tearing down engines that have been driven for 150, 000 miles with only 15 oil changes

3. Trust the people who designed the engine, know it best, actually do have all that listed in #2, have their reputation and credibility on the line.

 

Just a quick question. Where has everyone sent their oil to be examined? Is there a list of companies that will do this. Thanks

 

[QUOTE=caminifan]If you have bought into the concept of changing the oil on a sooner than 10,000 mile interval, what makes you think that you should not change the filter as well? The whole reason for more frequent oil changes is to remove old oil and replace it with fresh oil. Given the relatively small oil capacity of the MINI's engine, you want to get as much old oil out as possible. That includes the 10-12 oz. of oil that is resident in the filter and filter housing. Separately, the filter is present to remove particles that could cause damage to the engine's bearings. Are you really saying that you can't afford the cost of a new filter at the same time that you just paid ~$25 for new oil????
QUOTE]

I didn't mean to imply that I don't change the filter, or don't think that changing the filter is better. Only that I was interested in knowing the impact of not changing the filter every oil change. Do you still get the benefits of fresh oil, or are they negated by the 10% of the oil you didn't get because it was in the filter.

Unless there is something wrong with your engine, you drive in really dusty/dirty conditions or you have a filter failure, the filter should have no problem lasting the 10,000 miles and removing particles. What I'm wondering about it the chemicals that build up in the oil.

There are a lot of pros and cons to oil change interval, and the 10K mile recommendation is based on average driving, not hard driving like most of us. In my A4 turbo, with a chipped ecu, I sure as hell changed the oil more often to prevent sludge, and burned oil from building up in the turbo.

But there are environmental concerns to changing the oil more often, along with cost. And I suspect that most cars can go the 10,000 miles between oil changes if synthetic oil is used. For performane minded car owners, it's generally a simple thing to pay the little bit extra to maintain the engine performance. But for the average person who treats their car like an appliance (I bet 90+% of drivers) the overall cost savings, and oil waste savings is a huge impact to the environment. Even if the oil is recycled like it's supposed to be, there are costs and impacts.

Since I just got my MINI, and it only has about 700 miles on it, I haven't done an oil change yet. Looking forward to it tho :smile:

 

As demonstrated by my waiting the full 10,000 miles before 1st oil service, I do tend to trust those guys mentioned in #3 - too much, maybe.

They might be risking their reputation and credibility, but then, me failing to maximize my engine's lifespan, through MY OWN "neglect" doesn't hit them in THEIR pocketbook. Do they have "accountability"? Noper.

Shame there's no automotive equivalent to the Everlasting Gobstopper. Just buy one and you'd be set for life. I suppose it's largely a "resource management" issue. People who are frugal, prudent, pick your word, in general, will tend to take care of their MINI in like manner.

Just my $.02, and that wasn't a sly way of saying that those of us following the manufacturer's recommendations aren't frugal or prudent.

TWO oil changes in 12,000 miles costs half of what four would, and seems far enough in advance of the dreaded 10,000 mile interval. A good compromise.

Tatt

 

I have no doubt that the filter can last to 10,000 miles. However, that was not the point of my post. The more important consideration is the old oil that remains in the filter and the filter housing. If the MINI engine had a 7 quart capacity or higher, you might be able to make a credible argument that there was no real advantage to be gained in changing the filter along with the oil (especially if the filter was in some inaccessible part of the engine that required removal of the engine to be able to reach the filter (don't laugh - the original Boxster had this benefit)). However, 4 quarts is an entirely different matter. By not changing the oil and filter at the same time, you have diluted the new oil by 10%. Is that enough to cause a return of the nitration and/or oxidation issues? Only an oil analysis will tell for sure. Ultimately, it is your car and your decision how frequently to change the oil and whether to change the filter at the same time.

Totally on point there.

I don't know what adverse costs and impacts you are referring to if the oil is re-cycled - the purpose of re-cycling is to reduce/eliminate the adverse costs/impacts. Could you elaborate?

It (the oil and filter change) is actually rather easy to do. There is even a now-to-do posted on NAM.

 

are these the same people who say the BMW automatic transmission has a "LIFETIME" fluid that never needs changing? Why not ask the countless BMW owners who've had their auto-trannies rebuilt if they trust what those people tell them.

The manufacture only has a concern for the vehicle during the life of the warranty... NOT the life of the vehicle. I've had BMW service managers admit that they only will perform the minimal maintence required for the warranty period of the car... Oh and they always change the oil in their cars every 5000 miles...

 

I suppose there are alot more ex-BMW owners than ex-Toyota owners.

 

can't really disagree with that one

 

Me either

 

I have been using the TEK-5 lab in NH, for almost 2 years now. I took this step because I was curious as to what the analysis would tell me. In talking with the lab supervisor, she said that the information returned by the oil analysis is used as a prediction tool, once a base line and trend have been established. The other lab that I know of is Blackstone Lab. There are other labs, but these are the two that I know of.

 

I used these people.

http://www.youroil.net/