Gas recommended for MCS
I posted this in another thread, but thought it belonged here also:
BTW, my dealer won't ship the fuel cleaner b/c it is classified as hazardous. I would have to drive there (60 miles) to pick it up.
So I called the BMW dealer in town. They don't carry it but will do a special order, which requires that you buy a case of 6 bottles. Apparently they prefer a different brand of fuel system cleaner.
So....I called BMW NA. My complaints are simple:
1) If BMW knows that we should use top tier fuel or a fuel system cleaner, why wasn't this communicated to me? Shouldn't this have been included in / added to the owner's manual?
2) Why didn't the dealer inform me about this when I told them about my cold start and misfire problems and asked if it could have anything to do with the fuel quality? I was simply told to bring the car for service, service that they know will not be covered under warranty if it does relate to fuel quality issues?
BTW, my dealer won't ship the fuel cleaner b/c it is classified as hazardous. I would have to drive there (60 miles) to pick it up.
So I called the BMW dealer in town. They don't carry it but will do a special order, which requires that you buy a case of 6 bottles. Apparently they prefer a different brand of fuel system cleaner. So....I called BMW NA. My complaints are simple:
1) If BMW knows that we should use top tier fuel or a fuel system cleaner, why wasn't this communicated to me? Shouldn't this have been included in / added to the owner's manual?
2) Why didn't the dealer inform me about this when I told them about my cold start and misfire problems and asked if it could have anything to do with the fuel quality? I was simply told to bring the car for service, service that they know will not be covered under warranty if it does relate to fuel quality issues?
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
There is no way to prove what gas you are getting. There is no crap gas, all gasoline meets federal standards for specific gravity, octane, sulfur content, water content, etc...
Really think about where does your gas comes from. A refinery, and most of the refineries are not owned by the majors (ie shell, exxon, bp). Instead most of the refineries are Valero, Marathon, Brenner Oil, Blarney Castle, etc. So your gas comes from the refinery by a pipeline, tankers, or fuel barge, to a regional tank farm. At which point additives may be added and designated to various large ground tanks from which the fuel will be distributed by tanker truck to various stations. Now where in the mix of those millions of gallons a day floating around does the specific additives go in to go to the specific stations...who knows? We are talking about 30 million gallons a day being consumed in the US.
The feds do mandate a certain amount of detergent additives in all gasoline. Generally if you read on the various gas companies websites they list they have double or triple the federal mandated detergent additives, and that is what makes their stuff 'special'.
Otherwise gasoline is gasoline + detergent additives. Unless it is 100 octane or greater specialty fuel.
One day I watched the same truck supply fuel to a local independent, and then deliver across the street to Shell. So am I getting 93 Vpower from Billy Bob's Local Independent station, or is The Shell station getting generic gas?
Either way I save about $.15 a gal buying it from Billy Bob's place.
Ever tried the Miller Lite and Milwaukee's Best Lite beer challenge? Same beer, two different cans, two prices. Best Lite has no marketing campaign, may not be as fresh, and is much less $$$.
Really think about where does your gas comes from. A refinery, and most of the refineries are not owned by the majors (ie shell, exxon, bp). Instead most of the refineries are Valero, Marathon, Brenner Oil, Blarney Castle, etc. So your gas comes from the refinery by a pipeline, tankers, or fuel barge, to a regional tank farm. At which point additives may be added and designated to various large ground tanks from which the fuel will be distributed by tanker truck to various stations. Now where in the mix of those millions of gallons a day floating around does the specific additives go in to go to the specific stations...who knows? We are talking about 30 million gallons a day being consumed in the US.
The feds do mandate a certain amount of detergent additives in all gasoline. Generally if you read on the various gas companies websites they list they have double or triple the federal mandated detergent additives, and that is what makes their stuff 'special'.
Otherwise gasoline is gasoline + detergent additives. Unless it is 100 octane or greater specialty fuel.
One day I watched the same truck supply fuel to a local independent, and then deliver across the street to Shell. So am I getting 93 Vpower from Billy Bob's Local Independent station, or is The Shell station getting generic gas?
Either way I save about $.15 a gal buying it from Billy Bob's place.
Ever tried the Miller Lite and Milwaukee's Best Lite beer challenge? Same beer, two different cans, two prices. Best Lite has no marketing campaign, may not be as fresh, and is much less $$$.
It is the additive in the gas and the station that is the brand. Not the gasoline itself.
The gas stations buy gas from distributors, not major oil companies. The distributors pay pipelines owners for transport and buy the gas from refineries. The refineries buy oil from the majors. The majors buy oil/gas leasing rights from various countries around the world and produce the oil.
We like to think there is a tight process where people in white tyvek suits are scrutinizing and testing in a lab a sample of every tanker truck leaving the yard. So that our cars get the best fuel possible. The reality is not so. Instead Billy-Bob-Joe-Lee stands in his overalls next to his truck and mixes a specified quantity of additive to to a tanker for the destination. This is the only place in the gasoline distribution system where there is a constant known volume. 10,000 gallons in most tanker trucks.
“Gasoline and other products are sent through shared pipelines in “batches”. Since these batches are not physically separated in the pipeline, some mixing or “commingling” of products occurs. This is why the quality of the gasoline and other products must be tested as they enter and leave the pipeline to make sure they meet appropriate specifications. Whenever the product fails to meet local, state, or federal product specifications, it must be removed and trucked back to a refinery for further processing. After shipment through the pipeline, gasoline is typically held in bulk storage terminals that often service many companies. At these terminals the gasoline is loaded into tanker trucks destined for various retail gas stations. The tanks in these trucks , which can typically hold up to 10,000 gallons, usually have several compartments, enabling them to transport different grades of gasoline or petroleum products. The truck tank is where the special additive packages of gasoline retailers get blended into the gasoline to differentiate one brand from another.”
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/gas04/gasoline.htm
There is no motivation for a gas station owner to spend money, time and training to test their gas to make sure it meets the Shell or Chevron additive detergent standard above the federal minimum standard from the distributor. Or even worse that they are getting the specific additive from Chevron or BP or whomever. Gas station owners are only making $1-2% profit on average on a gallon of gas. They make their money overwhelmingly on the store attached to the pumps.
The most likely reason people have any problems with gasoline, is some unscrupulous station owner adds water to his tanks to make a few more bucks.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,285
Likes: 19
From: Merrick, NY
Hm. I guess that is it then. water/crap added that is cheaper to make more cash.
What about Octane ratings? Is that additive as well? I wouldnt mind then what gas company is there so long as it has: no water, the said amount of detergents claimed, the claimed octane rating.
What about Octane ratings? Is that additive as well? I wouldnt mind then what gas company is there so long as it has: no water, the said amount of detergents claimed, the claimed octane rating.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
Based on what knowledge/experience? Have you ever been to a refinery? In a cracking plant? Surveyed a pipeline? Spoken with a licensed Petroleum Engineer? Driven a tanker truck?
It is the additive in the gas and the station that is the brand. Not the gasoline itself.
The gas stations buy gas from distributors, not major oil companies. The distributors pay pipelines owners for transport and buy the gas from refineries. The refineries buy oil from the majors. The majors buy oil/gas leasing rights from various countries around the world and produce the oil.
We like to think there is a tight process where people in white tyvek suits are scrutinizing and testing in a lab a sample of every tanker truck leaving the yard. So that our cars get the best fuel possible. The reality is not so. Instead Billy-Bob-Joe-Lee stands in his overalls next to his truck and mixes a specified quantity of additive to to a tanker for the destination. This is the only place in the gasoline distribution system where there is a constant known volume. 10,000 gallons in most tanker trucks.
“Gasoline and other products are sent through shared pipelines in “batches”. Since these batches are not physically separated in the pipeline, some mixing or “commingling” of products occurs. This is why the quality of the gasoline and other products must be tested as they enter and leave the pipeline to make sure they meet appropriate specifications. Whenever the product fails to meet local, state, or federal product specifications, it must be removed and trucked back to a refinery for further processing. After shipment through the pipeline, gasoline is typically held in bulk storage terminals that often service many companies. At these terminals the gasoline is loaded into tanker trucks destined for various retail gas stations. The tanks in these trucks , which can typically hold up to 10,000 gallons, usually have several compartments, enabling them to transport different grades of gasoline or petroleum products. The truck tank is where the special additive packages of gasoline retailers get blended into the gasoline to differentiate one brand from another.”
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/gas04/gasoline.htm
There is no motivation for a gas station owner to spend money, time and training to test their gas to make sure it meets the Shell or Chevron additive detergent standard above the federal minimum standard from the distributor. Or even worse that they are getting the specific additive from Chevron or BP or whomever. Gas station owners are only making $1-2% profit on average on a gallon of gas. They make their money overwhelmingly on the store attached to the pumps.
The most likely reason people have any problems with gasoline, is some unscrupulous station owner adds water to his tanks to make a few more bucks. [Emphasis added.]
It is the additive in the gas and the station that is the brand. Not the gasoline itself.
The gas stations buy gas from distributors, not major oil companies. The distributors pay pipelines owners for transport and buy the gas from refineries. The refineries buy oil from the majors. The majors buy oil/gas leasing rights from various countries around the world and produce the oil.
We like to think there is a tight process where people in white tyvek suits are scrutinizing and testing in a lab a sample of every tanker truck leaving the yard. So that our cars get the best fuel possible. The reality is not so. Instead Billy-Bob-Joe-Lee stands in his overalls next to his truck and mixes a specified quantity of additive to to a tanker for the destination. This is the only place in the gasoline distribution system where there is a constant known volume. 10,000 gallons in most tanker trucks.
“Gasoline and other products are sent through shared pipelines in “batches”. Since these batches are not physically separated in the pipeline, some mixing or “commingling” of products occurs. This is why the quality of the gasoline and other products must be tested as they enter and leave the pipeline to make sure they meet appropriate specifications. Whenever the product fails to meet local, state, or federal product specifications, it must be removed and trucked back to a refinery for further processing. After shipment through the pipeline, gasoline is typically held in bulk storage terminals that often service many companies. At these terminals the gasoline is loaded into tanker trucks destined for various retail gas stations. The tanks in these trucks , which can typically hold up to 10,000 gallons, usually have several compartments, enabling them to transport different grades of gasoline or petroleum products. The truck tank is where the special additive packages of gasoline retailers get blended into the gasoline to differentiate one brand from another.”
http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/brochure/gas04/gasoline.htm
There is no motivation for a gas station owner to spend money, time and training to test their gas to make sure it meets the Shell or Chevron additive detergent standard above the federal minimum standard from the distributor. Or even worse that they are getting the specific additive from Chevron or BP or whomever. Gas station owners are only making $1-2% profit on average on a gallon of gas. They make their money overwhelmingly on the store attached to the pumps.
The most likely reason people have any problems with gasoline, is some unscrupulous station owner adds water to his tanks to make a few more bucks. [Emphasis added.]
It is illegal for station owners to add water to their gas in every state, but it still happens!
Our local Speedway dealer got caught with the water hose in the tank! A Meijers (large independent grocery chain with gas stations attached) in town accidentally got water somehow in their tanks and had to pay for all affected cars to be repaired. A friend of mine bought gas somewhere in Illinois that was contaminated by a tank truck error. The tanker accidentally filled a gas UST with biodiesel.
Our local Speedway dealer got caught with the water hose in the tank! A Meijers (large independent grocery chain with gas stations attached) in town accidentally got water somehow in their tanks and had to pay for all affected cars to be repaired. A friend of mine bought gas somewhere in Illinois that was contaminated by a tank truck error. The tanker accidentally filled a gas UST with biodiesel.
Gasoline pumps typically post octane numbers as an average of two different values. Often you may see the octane rating quoted as (R+M)/2. One value is the research octane number (RON), which is determined with a test engine running at a low speed of 600 rpm. The other value is the motor octane number (MON), which is determined with a test engine running at a higher speed of 900 rpm. If, for example, a gasoline has an RON of 98 and a MON of 90, then the posted octane number would be the average of the two values or 94.
Straight-run gasoline has an octane number of about 70. In other words, straight-run gasoline has the same knocking properties as a mixture of 70% isooctane and 30% heptane. Cracking, isomerization, and other processes can be used to increase the octane rating of gasoline to about 90. Further rise of octane is produce by various aromatics and highly branched alkanes.
Most gas stations only receive two octanes, regular 87 and ultra 93 (depending on where you live), mid grade 90 is typically blended from the two tanks by the pump.
Straight-run gasoline has an octane number of about 70. In other words, straight-run gasoline has the same knocking properties as a mixture of 70% isooctane and 30% heptane. Cracking, isomerization, and other processes can be used to increase the octane rating of gasoline to about 90. Further rise of octane is produce by various aromatics and highly branched alkanes.
Most gas stations only receive two octanes, regular 87 and ultra 93 (depending on where you live), mid grade 90 is typically blended from the two tanks by the pump.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
It is illegal for station owners to add water to their gas in every state, but it still happens!
Our local Speedway dealer got caught with the water hose in the tank! A Meijers (large independent grocery chain with gas stations attached) in town accidentally got water somehow in their tanks and had to pay for all affected cars to be repaired. A friend of mine bought gas somewhere in Illinois that was contaminated by a tank truck error. The tanker accidentally filled a gas UST with biodiesel.
Our local Speedway dealer got caught with the water hose in the tank! A Meijers (large independent grocery chain with gas stations attached) in town accidentally got water somehow in their tanks and had to pay for all affected cars to be repaired. A friend of mine bought gas somewhere in Illinois that was contaminated by a tank truck error. The tanker accidentally filled a gas UST with biodiesel.
Im in NY and i think the owners of stations that got caught putting water in there tanks would have more to worry about than losing there business or being fined.
In 1900, 1/3 of all automobiles in NYC were powered by electricity. Snapple fact #304.
In 1900, 1/3 of all automobiles in NYC were powered by electricity. Snapple fact #304.
harley davidson
did lotso' testing due to complaints from customers; the winner is !!!!!!.......mobil !!!!! it has the best performance. do what the manuel tells you and run 93. unless your cold starts suck then drop to 91 due to ethanol. i've found this helps on occasion.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
did lotso' testing due to complaints from customers; the winner is !!!!!!.......mobil !!!!! it has the best performance. do what the manuel tells you and run 93. [Emphasis added.] unless your cold starts suck then drop to 91 due to ethanol. i've found this helps on occasion.
Right, And BMW is telling you to use 91 instead of 93 due to the high content of ethanol in 93
1st Gear
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 24
Likes: 0
On topic - ancillary question
My MCS was fluctuating around +500 RPM's at idle and was told to put 87 octane to smooth it out, that worked, but was not told when to start putting the regular stuff back in. Any thoughts?
2nd Gear
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 128
Likes: 0
From: Front Royal, Virginia
I dunno, I've read the manual, it says 91 or better.
Could go cheap and save a few pennies.
When your'e out do you buy bottled water or ask for H2o from the tap because it's cheaper?
I'll go for the good stuff.
Could go cheap and save a few pennies.
When your'e out do you buy bottled water or ask for H2o from the tap because it's cheaper?
I'll go for the good stuff.
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
Interesting way of thinking about the issue.
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 489
Likes: 5
From: Piedmont Triad, NC
I am amazed that this conversation persists. We all know that BMW recommends 91 or better, but still someone says "can I use 87?"
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 2,072
Likes: 4
I am amazed that this conversation persists. [Emphasis added.] We all know that BMW recommends 91 or better, but still someone says "can I use 87?"
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,344
Likes: 0
From: Uniontown, PA
I am amazed that this conversation persists. We all know that BMW recommends 91 or better, but still someone says "can I use 87?"
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
The short answer is YES, BUT, you will not realize the full potential of power or fuel economy from your engine. The knock sensor will retard the timing, we all know this and your performance will suffer, also you get worse gas mileage (if only by a few miles, and I've seen a difference of 20-40 miles per tank). You may get a return on your premium investment sooner than you realize. I've been doing this a long time, and can tell the difference inside an engine between ones that have been run with regular or premium, and premium run engines show less deposits, typically.
So go ahead and use regular, you won't hurt anything in the short term, but you may feel some guilt (and you should).
Octane boosters and fuel system cleaners do not replaced the detergents used in quality premium fuel, but if you use anything, Techron is what BMW sells you in their little bottles and you can get that at Wal-Mart...Its the same thing, not specially formulated for BMW.
Happy Motoring, --Dan
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 489
Likes: 5
From: Piedmont Triad, NC
-Dan
Neutral
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Hi2All!
Something to be concerned about these days is the reduction in fuel quality across the board. Some of you might remember our illustrious president (take that however you might) stating in a speech that he had 'authorized a rollback of the EPA Clean Air standards' in an effort to make more fuel available.
Something to be concerned about these days is the reduction in fuel quality across the board. Some of you might remember our illustrious president (take that however you might) stating in a speech that he had 'authorized a rollback of the EPA Clean Air standards' in an effort to make more fuel available.
And using 87 doesn't make sense to most people (myself included), so we ask about it here. Where else can we turn?
Banned
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 489
Likes: 5
From: Piedmont Triad, NC
One thing I've learned from working at dealerships for the last 15 years, is that service writers are rarely mechanics, they are salesmen who have enough car knowlege to bs their way though a sale, with some exceptions, and I've worked with some great SA's as well. The real problem with diagnosing fuel quality issues is that it is time consuming for the tech, who gets paid commission based upon a book time, of which there is none for this kind of work. It does not pay for the tech to spend any amount of time with it and the SA has to "sell" you on believing something, whether its backed up by fact or not. If they can provide a TSB from BMW regarding this, it would sure help.
--Dan "Mr. Cynical" (I know)
--Dan "Mr. Cynical" (I know)
1st Gear
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Philadelphia, PA
Try putting in premium, and you'll find you've been missing out on a lot of power and responsiveness. I put regs in once by accident and I had a noticable performance drop-off. What everyone is saying about the ECU retarding the timing to prevent detonation and dieseling is absolutely true.
4th Gear
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 515
Likes: 1
From: Ohio
One thing I've learned from working at dealerships for the last 15 years, is that service writers are rarely mechanics, they are salesmen who have enough car knowlege to bs their way though a sale, with some exceptions, and I've worked with some great SA's as well. The real problem with diagnosing fuel quality issues is that it is time consuming for the tech, who gets paid commission based upon a book time, of which there is none for this kind of work. It does not pay for the tech to spend any amount of time with it and the SA has to "sell" you on believing something, whether its backed up by fact or not. If they can provide a TSB from BMW regarding this, it would sure help.
--Dan "Mr. Cynical" (I know)
--Dan "Mr. Cynical" (I know)