The Yo-Yo Chronicles
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 3
From: Over there -->
Ryan --
Great News! I'm so glad that an arragement was worked out to neatly circumvent MCM. I wounder what MINIUSA will do about them? Are there other potential BMW dealers in Motown to whom the MINI franchise could be transferred? It seems that keeping MCM would prove a liability to MINI in the long run.
If you have access to a dyno, it will probably be easy getting someone witn a stock '04 to give you a baseline. The difference between '04s is probably much less that 7 bhp. I think I remember reading that a MINI spokesperson attributes the 7 bhp to a minor redesign (coating?) of the vanes in the SC, modifications to the head, and ECU programing modifications. Wonder what just the ECU changes do.....?
I contacted MINIUSA with the results of my "testing" and asked them several follow-up questions. To date I have not heard from them.
I now have 700+ plus miles on the ECU and still no yo-yo. It has been cold and damp in my area during the last couple of mornings. Several times the MINI needed a second turn of the key to start, but this seems to be the pattern I experienced this winter. I would certainly NOT characterize it as a "cold start" issue. As I discovered this winter, turning the key to position 2 for about 5 seconds before engaging the starter yields a quick start each time.
I have a few more comments over on MINI2 in the CD 38 Update thread. I remain pleased with the update and with the DSC switched-off...YEEEE HAAAAA!
Theo
_________________
Great News! I'm so glad that an arragement was worked out to neatly circumvent MCM. I wounder what MINIUSA will do about them? Are there other potential BMW dealers in Motown to whom the MINI franchise could be transferred? It seems that keeping MCM would prove a liability to MINI in the long run.
If you have access to a dyno, it will probably be easy getting someone witn a stock '04 to give you a baseline. The difference between '04s is probably much less that 7 bhp. I think I remember reading that a MINI spokesperson attributes the 7 bhp to a minor redesign (coating?) of the vanes in the SC, modifications to the head, and ECU programing modifications. Wonder what just the ECU changes do.....?
I contacted MINIUSA with the results of my "testing" and asked them several follow-up questions. To date I have not heard from them.
I now have 700+ plus miles on the ECU and still no yo-yo. It has been cold and damp in my area during the last couple of mornings. Several times the MINI needed a second turn of the key to start, but this seems to be the pattern I experienced this winter. I would certainly NOT characterize it as a "cold start" issue. As I discovered this winter, turning the key to position 2 for about 5 seconds before engaging the starter yields a quick start each time.
I have a few more comments over on MINI2 in the CD 38 Update thread. I remain pleased with the update and with the DSC switched-off...YEEEE HAAAAA!
Theo
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Coordinator :: Chicago MINI Motoring Club
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 1,251
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From: San Antonio, TX
So, Ryan: any chance of holding "Spring Parties" througout the Midwest this summer? I mean, if you've got the install time down to a half-hour, then you could fix an awful lot of bypass valves in a one-day stopover in Chicago!
Actually COOP, I hope none of us have to resort to a "Spring Party" to rid ourselves of the Yo-Yo, though any sort of MINI-party is fun at the very least!
Hold on until Saturday (I should have MM2 back by then to comment on the effectiveness of V38!)
I'll stop in Chi-town sometime soon anyway
Hold on until Saturday (I should have MM2 back by then to comment on the effectiveness of V38!)
I'll stop in Chi-town sometime soon anyway
Ryephile, first off thanks for all your determined work on this issue of the yoyo.
Aside from all the hoopla generated by others I believe you have discovered one of the variables in performance between different MCS's. The actual setting of the bypass valve to closed with the set screw. There must be a variable in the OEM setting of different bypass valve's from the factory not allowing some MCS's to obtain full boost due to the setting of the valve to partial open with the vacuum actuator at rest (no vacuum full extension). What I am saying is a close look and resetting of the valve stop screw to fully closed in combination with a restrictor in the vacuum line to retard operation of the vacuum modulator would most likely result in the best performance. Your comments would be appreciated.. :smile:
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Aside from all the hoopla generated by others I believe you have discovered one of the variables in performance between different MCS's. The actual setting of the bypass valve to closed with the set screw. There must be a variable in the OEM setting of different bypass valve's from the factory not allowing some MCS's to obtain full boost due to the setting of the valve to partial open with the vacuum actuator at rest (no vacuum full extension). What I am saying is a close look and resetting of the valve stop screw to fully closed in combination with a restrictor in the vacuum line to retard operation of the vacuum modulator would most likely result in the best performance. Your comments would be appreciated.. :smile:
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--->norm03s: yes, of all the bypass valves I've worked on, all of them had sub-optimal setscrew positioning, resulting in a very low Ql (not allowing full boost). Usually with throttle bodies, you don't want to have them fully closed so the car will idle correctly, however with the bypass valve you want it fully shut when you're at higher throttle angle. It should be adjusted to be fully shut but not mash the butterfly against the bore. It's an adjustment that takes just a few seconds too long for the factory to safely impliment (sigh).
As for this restrictor hoopla in the vacuum line, I'm not sure if it can be beneficial. It's like drinking through a smaller straw; higher velocity but lower displacement, and the diaphram needs displacement to move. Since at idle the diaphram is pulled open, when you add throttle angle the diaphram with its' newfound restrictiveness will be damped in trying to move to closed. I'll post a picture in a minute.
As for this restrictor hoopla in the vacuum line, I'm not sure if it can be beneficial. It's like drinking through a smaller straw; higher velocity but lower displacement, and the diaphram needs displacement to move. Since at idle the diaphram is pulled open, when you add throttle angle the diaphram with its' newfound restrictiveness will be damped in trying to move to closed. I'll post a picture in a minute.
Ok, a few things. First, I snapped a pic of the vacuum line on the bypass valve pinched shut, thus holding the valve open (I added vaccum to the line and then pinched it, to simulate how the valve looks when at idle)
>>Ok, a few things. First, I snapped a pic of the vacuum line on the bypass valve pinched shut, thus holding the valve open (I added vaccum to the line and then pinched it, to simulate how the valve looks when at idle)
>>
>>:smile:
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>>
>>:smile:
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6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
Likes: 3
From: Over there -->
>>{snip} Second: I got my car back from Classic MINI! I prompty drove around for a few miles to check out V38. I'm scratching my head; and I'm not going to go into detail until I get more miles behind the new software. The PID overshoot seems to only be marginally improved. There seems to be a new phenomenon now; during very light acceleration, the engine has this slight bogging feeling; it's not smooth like it used to be. Obviously I'm concerned, and will be thinking hard about it.
>>
Ryan --
I'll be very interested in the results! I can't say that I've noticed a bogging under light acceleration, but I will try to induce it tonight. My yo-yo has not resurfaced...perhaps it was worse that I thought and the new software is such an improvement to my car that I can't discern the remaining overshoot.
Of course, your "dyno" may likely more finely "calibrated" than mine. I have one of those bulky 50-year old models!
Theo
norm03S - you've got it backwards. The bypass valve is normally OPEN, as the manifold runs a vacuum unless your foot is in it. (unless, of course, your foot is ALWAYS in it )
It would seem that a restrictor would slow the opening of the bypass (thus relieving boost) after you release the throttle. Not sure how it would provide boost more quickly as the release of vacuum would be similarly restricted when you put your foot into it. Hmmm.
)It would seem that a restrictor would slow the opening of the bypass (thus relieving boost) after you release the throttle. Not sure how it would provide boost more quickly as the release of vacuum would be similarly restricted when you put your foot into it. Hmmm.
>>norm03S - you've got it backwards. The bypass valve is normally OPEN, as the manifold runs a vacuum unless your foot is in it. (unless, of course, your foot is ALWAYS in it :smile:
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The cure is to limit the oscillation in the vacuum control module which causes over/under compensative operation of the bypass valve.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
3rd Gear
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 243
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From: 3rd Stone from the Sun
>>It would seem that a restrictor would slow the opening of the bypass (thus relieving boost) after you release the throttle. Not sure how it would provide boost more quickly as the release of vacuum would be similarly restricted when you put your foot into it. Hmmm.
I prefer to think of it (restriction) as capable of providing critical damping to an underdamped system, else there would be no overshoot and ringing of the bypass valve position. True, with too much damping the response of the system would be unacceptably slow for both opening and closing, but a critically damped response may appear to have better response than the underdamped because of the lack of overshoot and undershoot. I don't expect much restriction is necessary, just enough to stop the ringing response. If the response is unacceptably slow in the closing direction due to the restriction, then parallel the restriction with a check valve. Dunno if true, but I've been told these check valves with restrictions are used in carburetors with vacuum controlled secondaries, and that the same oscillatory behavior will occur if the check valve is removed.
I prefer to think of it (restriction) as capable of providing critical damping to an underdamped system, else there would be no overshoot and ringing of the bypass valve position. True, with too much damping the response of the system would be unacceptably slow for both opening and closing, but a critically damped response may appear to have better response than the underdamped because of the lack of overshoot and undershoot. I don't expect much restriction is necessary, just enough to stop the ringing response. If the response is unacceptably slow in the closing direction due to the restriction, then parallel the restriction with a check valve. Dunno if true, but I've been told these check valves with restrictions are used in carburetors with vacuum controlled secondaries, and that the same oscillatory behavior will occur if the check valve is removed.
Well we could talk about what part the software plays into this but I'm still road testing V38 since last Friday's service visit. I really don't know what this ECU samples to control fuel and timing or it's sampling and response rate. :smile:
--->Eric_Rowland: You've almost got it right, but have your wording a bit off. The bypass valve is indeed open at idle but not at rest when the engine is off. The bypass valve is open in proportion to the amount of vacuum (more vacuum=more open bypass valve=less boost generation)
--->norm03s: The stiffer bypass valve return spring does not act as a damper, it changes the vacuum range in which the bypass valve opens. My new spring only allows about 50% opening of the valve at maximum engine braking (about 23 in-Hg), and full closed at about 10 in-Hg). This differs from stock dramatically (full open at 15 in-Hg and full closed at about 1 in-Hg). The stiffer spring may marginally slow the opening of the valve, but this actually beneficial to "keeping the boost up". Likewise, when the vacuum drops, the heavier spring closes the valve quicker than stock due to the higher spring rate. Dampening isn't effectively changed, so throttle transients will be relatively quicker than stock.
Conversely, the different size vacuum line does act as a damper, which slows both opening and closing of the bypass valve. Slowing the opening of the valve, as I noted above, is beneficial, however slowing the closing of the valve is not beneficial, and will increase the time needed to generate boost. While the different size vacuum line will no doubt eradicate the Yo-Yo due to the increased dampening, I discarded this option early on due to the performance negatives.
--->still norm03s: When did you arrange V38 uploading? Are you sure you're not confusing with V36, as dealership service departments do not have V38 yet!
--->Everyone: When I drove MM2 after unloading from the truck, he ran almost identical to V36. I was shocked, annoyed, and then flustered. The only option I had; I reset my hardware (which also clears the adaptive-logic in the ECU) via the OBDII GUI in the odometer display (test 19, sub-test 21 to the newbies). This helped dramatically, much more so than any adaptive-logic reset in the past! I'm not sure how the service tech's drove the car after the install (there were 2.6 miles on the clock that they drove), but getting rid of their driving-style helped mondo.
Basically, V38 is an improvement. A huge improvement in some ways, and marginal in others.
*The PID overshoot is still there, albeit it seems variable depending on throttle angle vs. time slope. At worst, the "overshoot" (can be interchanged with Yo-Yo) is the same, and at best it's undetectable. The variable is how quick you go from low-throttle towards full-throttle. Quicker stabs of pedal seems to yield greater tendency to overshoot.
*DSC: OMG, it doesn't "shut down" the power when power shifting into 2nd anymore! The DSC will come on and minimize wheelspin, but it doesn't bog the engine and "shut down the party" like previous software versions! This was my primary complaint with DSC, and now that it's corrected, I consider it a HUGE improvement!
I can't comment on cold-start yet, as my car hasn't sat for very long today
Aloha!....I mean Cheers!
Ryan
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--->norm03s: The stiffer bypass valve return spring does not act as a damper, it changes the vacuum range in which the bypass valve opens. My new spring only allows about 50% opening of the valve at maximum engine braking (about 23 in-Hg), and full closed at about 10 in-Hg). This differs from stock dramatically (full open at 15 in-Hg and full closed at about 1 in-Hg). The stiffer spring may marginally slow the opening of the valve, but this actually beneficial to "keeping the boost up". Likewise, when the vacuum drops, the heavier spring closes the valve quicker than stock due to the higher spring rate. Dampening isn't effectively changed, so throttle transients will be relatively quicker than stock.
Conversely, the different size vacuum line does act as a damper, which slows both opening and closing of the bypass valve. Slowing the opening of the valve, as I noted above, is beneficial, however slowing the closing of the valve is not beneficial, and will increase the time needed to generate boost. While the different size vacuum line will no doubt eradicate the Yo-Yo due to the increased dampening, I discarded this option early on due to the performance negatives.
--->still norm03s: When did you arrange V38 uploading? Are you sure you're not confusing with V36, as dealership service departments do not have V38 yet!
--->Everyone: When I drove MM2 after unloading from the truck, he ran almost identical to V36. I was shocked, annoyed, and then flustered. The only option I had; I reset my hardware (which also clears the adaptive-logic in the ECU) via the OBDII GUI in the odometer display (test 19, sub-test 21 to the newbies). This helped dramatically, much more so than any adaptive-logic reset in the past! I'm not sure how the service tech's drove the car after the install (there were 2.6 miles on the clock that they drove), but getting rid of their driving-style helped mondo.
Basically, V38 is an improvement. A huge improvement in some ways, and marginal in others.
*The PID overshoot is still there, albeit it seems variable depending on throttle angle vs. time slope. At worst, the "overshoot" (can be interchanged with Yo-Yo) is the same, and at best it's undetectable. The variable is how quick you go from low-throttle towards full-throttle. Quicker stabs of pedal seems to yield greater tendency to overshoot.
*DSC: OMG, it doesn't "shut down" the power when power shifting into 2nd anymore! The DSC will come on and minimize wheelspin, but it doesn't bog the engine and "shut down the party" like previous software versions! This was my primary complaint with DSC, and now that it's corrected, I consider it a HUGE improvement!
I can't comment on cold-start yet, as my car hasn't sat for very long today
Aloha!....I mean Cheers!
Ryan
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6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,474
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From: Over there -->
Ryan --
I'm glad I wasn't imagining things! I haven't tried the 19-21 reset...I assume that the service department did this. No harm in doing it again, I guess!
DSC...Hmmmm. Maybe that's why the car felt like it was pulling harder in the lower RPM range. And Cruise Control...you know, I had it on during the NYC roundtrip adventure and I really didn't pay attention to it at all. Another assignment for tonight!
Now the interesting question...+7HP? Any news from our contact regarding this?
So gald things are better!
Theo
I'm glad I wasn't imagining things! I haven't tried the 19-21 reset...I assume that the service department did this. No harm in doing it again, I guess!
DSC...Hmmmm. Maybe that's why the car felt like it was pulling harder in the lower RPM range. And Cruise Control...you know, I had it on during the NYC roundtrip adventure and I really didn't pay attention to it at all. Another assignment for tonight!
Now the interesting question...+7HP? Any news from our contact regarding this?
So gald things are better!
Theo
Ryan, "norm03s: The stiffer bypass valve return spring does not act as a damper, it changes the vacuum range in which the bypass valve opens. My new spring only allows about 50% opening of the valve at maximum engine braking (about 23 in-Hg), and full closed at about 10 in-Hg). This differs from stock dramatically (full open at 15 in-Hg and full closed at about 1 in-Hg). The stiffer spring may marginally slow the opening of the valve, but this actually beneficial to "keeping the boost up". Likewise, when the vacuum drops, the heavier spring closes the valve quicker than stock due to the higher spring rate. Dampening isn't effectively changed, so throttle transients will be relatively quicker than stock."
Ryan, Yes I agree, changing out the spring ( it changes the vacuum range) is key to a fix and more responsive performance.
Finding the optimal spring tension, availability and testing change's on car is time consuming, is that why you purchased another bypass valve to test springs. Do you have a hand vacuum pump? Like this, http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/...0_SC_189e3.jpg
"still norm03s: When did you arrange V38 uploading? Are you sure you're not confusing with V36, as dealership service departments do not have V38 yet!"
Last Friday 5/21/04 I went in for service, I told my service advisor that I had experienced hesitation on starting off from a stop like the gas pedal wasn't telling the engine to accelerate. I also said that I have experienced what is being called yoyo not bad but I can feel it. I said that I wanted any software updates that were available, he said v-36 was the fix, I said talk of v-38 was all over the Net and I thought v-37 was now the standard. When my car was finished and we went over the service performed he indicated that I now had v-38. Looking at my paper work it doesn't indicate that specifically. My MCS is 7/4/03 build. :smile:
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Ryan, Yes I agree, changing out the spring ( it changes the vacuum range) is key to a fix and more responsive performance.
Finding the optimal spring tension, availability and testing change's on car is time consuming, is that why you purchased another bypass valve to test springs. Do you have a hand vacuum pump? Like this, http://images.canadiantire.ca/media/...0_SC_189e3.jpg
"still norm03s: When did you arrange V38 uploading? Are you sure you're not confusing with V36, as dealership service departments do not have V38 yet!"
Last Friday 5/21/04 I went in for service, I told my service advisor that I had experienced hesitation on starting off from a stop like the gas pedal wasn't telling the engine to accelerate. I also said that I have experienced what is being called yoyo not bad but I can feel it. I said that I wanted any software updates that were available, he said v-36 was the fix, I said talk of v-38 was all over the Net and I thought v-37 was now the standard. When my car was finished and we went over the service performed he indicated that I now had v-38. Looking at my paper work it doesn't indicate that specifically. My MCS is 7/4/03 build. :smile:
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3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 185
Likes: 0
From: Orlando
Great work Ryephile! Are you planning on doing any A/F measurements? I'm planning on changeing to a 19% pulley later this year and I'm wondering if V38 has leaned out the A/F.
By the way, I always drive with the DSC off. The parking lot where I work leads directly onto a busy 4-lane HWY and ANY wheel slippage pulling out into traffic results in a loss of power and incipient cardiac arrest. If theyve corrected that great, but I'm not sure I'll trust it quite yet.
Before the pulley I plan on changeing the spring in the valve body and adjusting the valve stop. I had planned on using M7's restricter, but after some thought it occurred to me that it merely decreases the responsiveness of the valve, not its function parameters like the spring.
Once again, thank you so much for your perseverance and dedication!
By the way, I always drive with the DSC off. The parking lot where I work leads directly onto a busy 4-lane HWY and ANY wheel slippage pulling out into traffic results in a loss of power and incipient cardiac arrest. If theyve corrected that great, but I'm not sure I'll trust it quite yet.
Before the pulley I plan on changeing the spring in the valve body and adjusting the valve stop. I had planned on using M7's restricter, but after some thought it occurred to me that it merely decreases the responsiveness of the valve, not its function parameters like the spring.
Once again, thank you so much for your perseverance and dedication!
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
From: California
From Ryephile:
>>*Throttle mapping: Even though my now-erased Powerchip ECU supposedly had more aggressive throttle pedal mapping, I honestly never felt a difference from stock. With V38, the pedal seems to have a more dynamic nature. >>
Just wondering if you got your Powerchip erased specifically due to getting the V38 or if you decided to dump it anyway. If it was due to getting V38, do you have Powerchip back up and running again yet and if so how's the car running? I paid the big bucks for Powerchip a couple of months ago and have wondered more than once if it was really worth it.
Ken
>>*Throttle mapping: Even though my now-erased Powerchip ECU supposedly had more aggressive throttle pedal mapping, I honestly never felt a difference from stock. With V38, the pedal seems to have a more dynamic nature. >>
Just wondering if you got your Powerchip erased specifically due to getting the V38 or if you decided to dump it anyway. If it was due to getting V38, do you have Powerchip back up and running again yet and if so how's the car running? I paid the big bucks for Powerchip a couple of months ago and have wondered more than once if it was really worth it.
Ken
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,754
Likes: 36
From: Metro Detroit Area, Michigan
Well it's been a long time since I have posted in this thread so I thought I would say hi.
From everything I have heard so far V38 is better, maybe still not a total fix for some of the problems, but a steps in the right direction. To the power chips question. Every time you take you car to the dealer to get a new flash you wipe out all programs on your ECU. You will need to get the kit from power chips and redo it all again. We talked today about dynoing the car again to see what kind of power it is getting now with the stock ECU program. If everything goes right Saturday morning will be dyno day. Friday we are going to add a smaller belt to the engine to rule out a belt slippage problem we thought we were getting at high RPMs. As for power chips and the big buck program...from everything I hear as of today it is not really up to what it should be for the price. I mean if you have the money to blow it will give you power, but for the budget minded it might be something to wait on. I myself do believe there is a great gain to be had within the ECU and will get a program for my car, but I am waiting to see what happens the next year or so. New companies keep coming out with new stuff and uni-chip has a good idea with the in line system. This way you can get new flashes and not have to reprogram the ECU every time (waiting for month on end for a kit too). So back to the V38 and the yoyo.... I plan on getting it once it is a bit easier for me to get. If I take my car to Cleveland for some reason or if MCM ever gets it I might let them work on it under my super vision. But my YOYO is not so bad that I cannot drive through it with a bit more gas. However I would love to see if the DSC and Cruise Control functions work like Ryan says they do. That would be a big help in its self. I hope to get a ride in Ryans car tomorrow to see how it is working. Good day all.
From everything I have heard so far V38 is better, maybe still not a total fix for some of the problems, but a steps in the right direction. To the power chips question. Every time you take you car to the dealer to get a new flash you wipe out all programs on your ECU. You will need to get the kit from power chips and redo it all again. We talked today about dynoing the car again to see what kind of power it is getting now with the stock ECU program. If everything goes right Saturday morning will be dyno day. Friday we are going to add a smaller belt to the engine to rule out a belt slippage problem we thought we were getting at high RPMs. As for power chips and the big buck program...from everything I hear as of today it is not really up to what it should be for the price. I mean if you have the money to blow it will give you power, but for the budget minded it might be something to wait on. I myself do believe there is a great gain to be had within the ECU and will get a program for my car, but I am waiting to see what happens the next year or so. New companies keep coming out with new stuff and uni-chip has a good idea with the in line system. This way you can get new flashes and not have to reprogram the ECU every time (waiting for month on end for a kit too). So back to the V38 and the yoyo.... I plan on getting it once it is a bit easier for me to get. If I take my car to Cleveland for some reason or if MCM ever gets it I might let them work on it under my super vision. But my YOYO is not so bad that I cannot drive through it with a bit more gas. However I would love to see if the DSC and Cruise Control functions work like Ryan says they do. That would be a big help in its self. I hope to get a ride in Ryans car tomorrow to see how it is working. Good day all.
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5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 811
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From: Chicago
Damit Damit Damit
I was in Mentor, OH this past weekend and drove right by Classic Mini...
<Face slap to forehead>
Voice- DOH!
At the very least I could have said hey to Brian there...
I am interested in the V38, my yo-yo after 1,250MI is noticable, but
nothing bad. Starts are quick in all temps, idle is rock solid... No stumble
(I have the Alta intake)... So I debate it it's worth it...
However, the cruise control does suck on my car. It's ok on the flat or on
hills that are completely linear and small. Bigger hills throw it for a curve.
Hitting +/- is like
"welcome to the Mini Cooper S speed changing line. For
quality purposes, your call may be monitored or recorded.
"Please hold, all of our ECU Agents are busy".
<BAD Elevator music or Muzak>
<RHEEEEEEE>
Thank your for your request, your speed will not be increased kindof.
Goodbye...
<hit redial again and do it all over again>
I was in Mentor, OH this past weekend and drove right by Classic Mini...
<Face slap to forehead>
Voice- DOH!
At the very least I could have said hey to Brian there...
I am interested in the V38, my yo-yo after 1,250MI is noticable, but
nothing bad. Starts are quick in all temps, idle is rock solid... No stumble
(I have the Alta intake)... So I debate it it's worth it...
However, the cruise control does suck on my car. It's ok on the flat or on
hills that are completely linear and small. Bigger hills throw it for a curve.
Hitting +/- is like
"welcome to the Mini Cooper S speed changing line. For
quality purposes, your call may be monitored or recorded.
"Please hold, all of our ECU Agents are busy".
<BAD Elevator music or Muzak>
<RHEEEEEEE>
Thank your for your request, your speed will not be increased kindof.
Goodbye...
<hit redial again and do it all over again>
3rd Gear
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
From: Highland Village, TX
I have read much of this thread and apologize if I missed something, but many in our Dallas club are wondering if v38 fixed the yoyo? After reading as much as I have had time to it looks like the yoyo is hardware and not a software problem. How much yoyo is fixed with v38 all? anything? nothing?