Stock Problems/Issues Discussions related to warranty related issues and repairs, or other problems with the OEM parts and software for MINI Clubman (R55), Cooper and Cooper S(R56), and Cabrio (R57).

Recurring Engine Carbon Buildup Problem

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Sep 1, 2010 | 07:22 PM
  #76  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by ///Mflossin
I would think that short trips around town and not getting the car up to full temperature for a period would also be a consideration. I am thinking that somebody who has a good long commute probably would see this less than somebody who goes 3-5 miles up the road to work every day? I certainly think that gas quality, temperature and ability to full heat cycle all play a part.
As it so happens, I have an hour commute (each way) of mostly highway driving… *and* I have a boroscope on order that I'm hoping might arrive before the weekend. (fingers crossed)
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 12:59 PM
  #77  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
Gas quality should have NOTHING to do with it. DI remember!
Long easy commute would probably have less "under load" from accelerating stop and go. So, yes, less blow-by. Modern rings SHOULD not be that sensitive to full heat cycle. Not like an old XK engine with the oval cylinders when cold. We should have better thermal control over the block and pistons by now. Not saying Mini (Peugeot) did not mess that up too.
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 01:40 PM
  #78  
ThumperMCS's Avatar
ThumperMCS
6th Gear
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,582
Likes: 19
From: OC, CA
Originally Posted by fishbert
As it so happens, I have an hour commute (each way) of mostly highway driving… *and* I have a boroscope on order that I'm hoping might arrive before the weekend. (fingers crossed)
You have to let me borrow it!
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 01:48 PM
  #79  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by ThumperMCS
You have to let me borrow it!
Can't wait for it to arrive... looks pretty nifty.
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 01:52 PM
  #80  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by tvrgeek
Originally Posted by fishbert
Originally Posted by tvrgeek
The only question is why there is such a large variance in how bad it is car to car.
Variance in average rpm (frequency of combustions, and thus frequency of blow-by),
variance in gas quality (how much "stuff" is left over to blow-by the piston),
variance in the tolerance of cylinder diameter and piston diameter (amount of gas allowed to blow-by per combustion),
variance in user observations of the effects (I haven't seen many physical measurements of carbon build-up rate in here),
etc.

There could be quite a wide range in the severity of reports, I would think.
Gas quality should have NOTHING to do with it. DI remember!
Long easy commute would probably have less "under load" from accelerating stop and go. So, yes, less blow-by. Modern rings SHOULD not be that sensitive to full heat cycle. Not like an old XK engine with the oval cylinders when cold. We should have better thermal control over the block and pistons by now. Not saying Mini (Peugeot) did not mess that up too.
Gas quality can have something to do with it in terms of how much carbon is left over in the blow-by after combustion, which the PCV system then sends to the intake manifold.
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 02:08 PM
  #81  
MINIdave's Avatar
MINIdave
6th Gear
15 Year Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 3,790
Likes: 10
From: Kansas City
Originally Posted by fishbert
Can't wait for it to arrive... looks pretty nifty.
It not only looks nifty, it looks expensive! I work with other Flir equipment - mostly IR heat cameras and stuff - it's a top quality camera.

What do you intend to do with it on your MINI, and how will you do it?
 
Reply
Old Sep 2, 2010 | 02:44 PM
  #82  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by MINIdave
It not only looks nifty, it looks expensive! I work with other Flir equipment - mostly IR heat cameras and stuff - it's a top quality camera.

What do you intend to do with it on your MINI, and how will you do it?
$350 for the BR250 model (9mm head instead of 17mm). It hurts a bit, but is much more affordable than anything else I could find with an easy way to transfer data to a computer (like the $800+ SnapOn model I was looking at first).

My main intent is to yank the intake manifold and peek at the back of the valves. I want to actually see what my carbon buildup looks like, and then what kind of a job a seafoam treatment actually does.

But just last week I dropped a screw down a deep, dark hole while replacing my rear speakers. My dealer graciously retrieved it via boroscope the next day while I was there for unrelated work. But that's a 100 mile trip, and it'd be nice to be able to do this sort of thing myself. Never mind all the other uses I'm sure I'll find for it around the house.
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 12:23 AM
  #83  
Subliminal's Avatar
Subliminal
1st Gear
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
My mini recently purchased, under warranty, is getting a carbon clean. dealer says this takes a week. i gave it to them mon night, so next tuesday. 47000 miles 07 MCS 6pd. Is this normal and what should i expect? what are they doing to clean it? Also does this hurt my car. should i expect any noticible differences when it gets back?
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 12:37 AM
  #84  
ThumperMCS's Avatar
ThumperMCS
6th Gear
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,582
Likes: 19
From: OC, CA
Originally Posted by Subliminal
My mini recently purchased, under warranty, is getting a carbon clean. dealer says this takes a week. i gave it to them mon night, so next tuesday. 47000 miles 07 MCS 6pd. Is this normal and what should i expect? what are they doing to clean it? Also does this hurt my car. should i expect any noticible differences when it gets back?
If it's taking a week...I'd assume they are pulling the whole head off and sending it out for cleaning. Are they doing it under warranty?
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 11:46 AM
  #85  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
Originally Posted by fishbert
Gas quality can have something to do with it in terms of how much carbon is left over in the blow-by after combustion, which the PCV system then sends to the intake manifold.
Don't buy that for a second. Sorry.
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 11:48 AM
  #86  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
Originally Posted by ThumperMCS
If it's taking a week...I'd assume they are pulling the whole head off and sending it out for cleaning. Are they doing it under warranty?
So, dealer pulls the head and takes a week. The club used $12 of Seafoam. Hmmmmm
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 12:09 PM
  #87  
Dwight Walhood's Avatar
Dwight Walhood
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 857
Likes: 0
From: San Marcos, CA
If you would all take the time to dig deep into NAM's threads on Seafoam and carbon build-up, all the answers are there including pictures and video. They go back about 3yrs, or about the time folks started getting some time on the new DFI engine.
 
Reply
Old Sep 3, 2010 | 12:26 PM
  #88  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Originally Posted by tvrgeek
Originally Posted by fishbert
Gas quality can have something to do with it in terms of how much carbon is left over in the blow-by after combustion, which the PCV system then sends to the intake manifold.
Don't buy that for a second. Sorry.
care to explain why?
 
Reply
Old Sep 4, 2010 | 10:50 AM
  #89  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
First thing you need to know is all the gas is EXACTLLY the same as it comes down the pipe from the refinery. Only at the local distribution depot point does it get blended and additives added to make it unique for one brand or another. Usually this is done in the truck. The market moves product so fast, you don't find "bad" gas any more. Not for 30 or 40 years.
Second, the control of the combustion process is so careful to meet modern emissions standards, it corrects any small issues. Even if your guides were bad and you were blowing oil, that would not affect crankcase vapor. Of course, by the time your guides are bad, so are your rings.

No, blow-by has much more to do with the rings. If I were to reach, and I do mean reach, I could suggest that how hard the turbo is run affects the oil vaporization and hence the amount of crankcase vapor. We do hope the oil in the turbo never gets hot enough to boil of coke. Not in a modern car.
 
Reply
Old Sep 4, 2010 | 11:23 AM
  #90  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
so you're saying there's zero variance in gas quality? and that the amount of unburned fuel in blow-by is exactly the same from tank to tank?

see, I just don't find that realistic. there will be inherent variance, even from the same refinery. it's because we live in the real world, not some wet dream of production engineering.
 
Reply
Old Sep 4, 2010 | 04:53 PM
  #91  
ThumperMCS's Avatar
ThumperMCS
6th Gear
iTrader: (2)
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,582
Likes: 19
From: OC, CA
Originally Posted by tvrgeek
The market moves product so fast, you don't find "bad" gas any more. Not for 30 or 40 years.
I dunno about that...

There are countless stories of gas contamination, extremely high ethanol content (higher than advertised), and even water content in fuel....all which can make the car run like crap, and be called "bas gas."

Sure all fuel might all start out the same...but once some companies get their hands on it, it can really go to ****.
 
Reply
Old Sep 5, 2010 | 05:20 AM
  #92  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
And you would go back to that station again making this an issue?
I would doubt higher than advertised ethanol. Ethanol costs more than gas. Note the pumps say contains "at least 10%". Nope. "Cheap" gas would have fewer additives as they are expensive. Many brands cut back on them as the alcohol is a vary good solvent and does a pretty good job of keeping varnish and water out of your system. I can't see either causing a difference it the quantity of blow-by. About the only chemical change I know of was the removal of ZDDP from the oil. This was the main wear additive in oil until the Government banned it because it would damage the cat in 200K miles. So instead, we have oil that wears out the engine in 60K and you replace the engine not the cat. Clearly a more eco-friendly solution. Most top companies have suitable replacements, but it drove up the cost of oil a couple of bucks.
 
Reply
Old Sep 21, 2010 | 07:19 PM
  #93  
smackboy1's Avatar
smackboy1
Thread Starter
|
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Princeton, NJ
So here are the intake valves for cylinders 1,2 and 4. 3 looked about the same as 1 and 2 so I skipped it. This is the reman engine after 5,000 miles and 1 can of Seafoam through the PCV hose. With the exception of the one valve on cylinder 4, everything looks pretty clean. After seeing the buildup remaining on #4 I'm not sure about the efficacy of Seafoam. I'll check it again in 5,000 more miles.
 
Attached Thumbnails Recurring Engine Carbon Buildup Problem-cyl-1-2-.jpg   Recurring Engine Carbon Buildup Problem-cyl-2-5-.jpg   Recurring Engine Carbon Buildup Problem-cyl-4-3-.jpg  
Reply
Old Sep 21, 2010 | 08:17 PM
  #94  
fishbert's Avatar
fishbert
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,174
Likes: 13
From: Ohio
Nice pics! Thanks for the legwork.

I've been waiting for my warranty to run out before I touch the engine (if carbon buildup ends up lighting the CEL, I don't want any excuses from the dealer on fixing it), but I might as well ask ahead of time… can the intake manifold gaskets be re-used, or do they have to be replaced once the part is disconnected from the head?
 
Reply
Old Sep 21, 2010 | 08:26 PM
  #95  
Rixter's Avatar
Rixter
5th Gear
iTrader: (18)
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 828
Likes: 1
From: North of the 49th
Originally Posted by fishbert
I've been waiting for my warranty to run out before I touch the engine (if carbon buildup ends up lighting the CEL, I don't want any excuses from the dealer on fixing it)
+1
 
Reply
Old Sep 22, 2010 | 05:02 AM
  #96  
smackboy1's Avatar
smackboy1
Thread Starter
|
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Princeton, NJ
Originally Posted by fishbert
… can the intake manifold gaskets be re-used, or do they have to be replaced once the part is disconnected from the head?
I just re-used them. Just have to be careful they don't fall out or get any dirt on them. It didn't even look like any kind of sealant was used. AFAIK just to take a look down at the valves there are no consumables (unless you accidentally lose or break something).

If you are careful and don't damage anything I don't think the dealer will know you opened it up for a peek. When I first started taking it apart I noticed that over the years the dealer had broken or lost non-essential bits and pieces.
 
Reply
Old Sep 22, 2010 | 05:51 AM
  #97  
///Mflossin's Avatar
///Mflossin
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut
Originally Posted by smackboy1
So here are the intake valves for cylinders 1,2 and 4. 3 looked about the same as 1 and 2 so I skipped it. This is the reman engine after 5,000 miles and 1 can of Seafoam through the PCV hose. With the exception of the one valve on cylinder 4, everything looks pretty clean. After seeing the buildup remaining on #4 I'm not sure about the efficacy of Seafoam. I'll check it again in 5,000 more miles.
What's the mileage currently?
 
Reply
Old Sep 22, 2010 | 06:36 AM
  #98  
smackboy1's Avatar
smackboy1
Thread Starter
|
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 207
Likes: 1
From: Princeton, NJ
Originally Posted by ///Mflossin
What's the mileage currently?
79,000 on the car. 5,000 on the engine.
 
Reply
Old Sep 22, 2010 | 07:19 AM
  #99  
///Mflossin's Avatar
///Mflossin
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
From: Connecticut
Wow....5,000 miles and it's that dirty on #4! Time for the BSH catch can and boost tap!
 
Reply
Old Sep 22, 2010 | 05:11 PM
  #100  
tvrgeek's Avatar
tvrgeek
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 663
Likes: 12
From: Maryland
Mflossin,
OK, explain the boost tap. Looking at the plumbing, the line going to the passenger side is a INTAKE from the manifold. Only the line on the drivers side is the exit vent that needs to go to a vapor separator ( not a catch can).

A "catch can" is just that. An empty can to keep puking fluids off a race track. A vapor separator has additional considerations to get the fumes to condense out and then collect in the can. They look the same, but one works much better.
 
Reply



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:31 AM.