Yeah yeah... ANOTHER stumble-related thread. I'd like to reserve this one for a singular purpose, however, and that's as a meeting point for people who might be interested in a Class Action Lawsuit.

As it should turn out, my mother works for a lawyer who has been dying to head up a class action lawsuit. Now, I'm not suggesting that this needs to happen immediately, but it's food for thought if we don't otherwise get some satisfaction.

So, if you'd be interested in a class action, post here so that, if it comes down to it, we know who/how many are interested.

 

If we don't get a resolution and/or a clear explanation with a definitive solution soon, I would be more than willing to join the suit. In general I have been really happy with my Mini and the service that I have received from Mini, but this problem and the lack of response is really bothering me. I bought the automobile for performance reasons, and when I test drove the vehicle I enjoyed it. The problem is that all us with this problem then got a car that wasn't what was sold to us. It has really disappointed me, with Mini's response on this. Therefore if something doesn't happen real soon, then this is the only way we may have to get them to finally listen. Count me IN!

 

Cool!

I just wanted to clarify--in case anyone thought me rabidly litigious--I'm emphatically NOT interested in getting money from this (if it comes to such measures). More than anything I just want to force MINIUSA's hand on this one and get a fix for MY CAR. In a perfect world, I'd really rather they not even buy my car back--just fix the one I presently have. Additionally, someone has to stand up and let them know that their present treatment of consumers is totally unacceptable.

 

Did any one happen to catch 20/20 last night and John Stossel's report on class action lawsuits? The bottom line was that there are a growing number of these type legal actions, mostly fueled by lawyers who stand to reap huge awards. Examples were cited where the average person represented in a class action suit was awarded pennies or coupons while the lawyers walked away with millions.

If BMW is not willing to deal with us in good faith and out in the open, but instead continues to drag this out and ignore their responsibility towards satisfying the customer then I agree a legal action might be the solution. If you want to start the organization of such, please consider that the group represented must have clear agreement of what results are desired. Like you I would not be interested in any monetary reward over any acutal costs incurred, ie rental cars etc. I would just want my car to perform as I expected it would when I agreed to purchase it.

In the event punative damages were to be awarded I would hope there were some prearranged cap on percentage based fees paid to legal representation.

First though, let's give BMW a much clearer understanding of the significant numbers of owners out there with the problem. Who knows, maybe the person who can make things happen is so insulated by "yes" men (and women) that he or she is totally unaware of the scope of the problem. (We don't need to bomb Bagdahd yet, let the inspectors do their work first.)

Once we are sure the top lever management is really aware of the problem and shows little effort to rectify it then we start making noise. First by notifying the press, enough to damage public relations. If all else fails, class action, but with class.

Just something to think about.

 

The suits at BMW have a much better idea than any of us how many cars are affected. Or do they?

I spoke at length with the Atlanta area marketing manager several months ago. After much prompting he reluctantly admitted that BMW HQ had heard from 5% of MCS owners specifically about the software issues. Further in our conversation he was quick to point out that "I said UP TO 5%" - at that time there were about 8000 MCS in the US. So at that time they knew of about 400 cars - if he could be believed - which I seriously doubt due to various other things he did and would not tell me.

Now i am sure that most people go to their dealer and ask "what's up with my car?" and get told the same thing if the dealer is honest or has a clue - "It's a software problem - we hope the next revision will cure your problem." The poor unsuspecting Mini owner then goes home and waits for his software fix. I know there are many other owners that think they have to use some kind of gas additive because they have been led to believe their gas is crap or that they have to learn to drive a stick. MINI HQ rarely hear from or about these owners - and they don't want to.

Only the owner savvy enough to come to these forums or lucky enough to meet someone who knows that this problem has been going on far too long will bother to call 866-ASK-MINI and let them know that whatever MINI is doing it's not enough.

I also spoke to the SE area BMW chief mechanic - who I might add ordered my dealer not to work any further on my car as it had a reduction pulley installed - I had changed the operating parameters of the engine so they had no idea what they were looking at. It was a rather lengthy conversation. He told me that every MINI Cooper S has the yoyo to some degree. He characterised this as "step acceleration between 2,800 and 4,000 RPM" - he also went on to add that some have it a lot worse than others. This is also true for the stumble that we speak of due to the adaptive nature of the ECU program.

In conclusion - who knows how many? It sure is a butt load more than (up to) 5%

_________________
'03 S DS

 

As of today my car has a minimal problem, helped significantly by installation of a Pilo intake. However, I absolutely will not settle for performance that is less than BMW represented when I signed a purchase agreement. I'm willing to 'wait and see' until December but after that I'm 'in' on the filing of a class action suit......I just want a car that meets the expectations I had after I tested and bought one. BMW
needs to know that they're running out of time with their stalling tactics and that
soon this little headache is going to turn into a migraine for them.
MCS delivered 9/16/02

 

I am also in, and agree with what has been said in the previous posts. I'm not looking for monetary gain, just a car that runs the way it's supposed to.

 

I agree with all of the previous posts...I'm willing to give it a wait and see attitude, but only if BMW/MINI [b]immediately[b] tell us what the problem is, how it is going to be fixed, and when that fix can be reliably expected to arrive. If this simply demand is not met within say, 30 days, and/or if no full solution is in place by January 1, 2004, then I will be more than willing to pile on the class action bandwagon.

Also, unlike some of the others posting, I'm not in this for money per se; but I would be willing to settle for a set dollar amount for being mislead as to the performance of this car and being saddled with said under-performing car for X number of days/weeks/months. I'm thinking of a dollar amount roughly equal to a nice ECU upgrade (from Randy!) would do the trick. Not to sound like I'm looking for money in the deal, far from it--I just think that setting a dollar amount that this could potentially cost BMW might set the wheels in motion faster than our demand simply being "Get our cars fixed soon please." You know what I mean?

 

Count me in. Like others, I'm not interested in monetary gain or frivolous lawsuits. MINI has lied to me. They have changed their story many times. They tell one person one thing; another person gets another story. The one thing I don't get is good information, firm dates, and commitments.

If MINI is producing a small percentage of cars with stumble issues, this could easily be checked before the cars are released. They could hold those cars and not release them. MINI chooses to release cars with the stumble issue. They do this knowingly and deliberately. Think about that for a moment. MINI knowingly and willingly releases cars with a quality control issue. What kind of car company does that? That is a very poor business decision. It shows lack of integrity, lack of concern for the customer, and lack of quality control standards.

I am going to proceed with lemon law, because I also have a paint issue, but I am all for forceful persuasion of MINI's hand, since they don't seem to be able to do the right thing on their own. What a shame.

You know, I'm reminded of a situation I had with a Dodge Dakota pickup. I purchased the Dodge and drove it nearly a year. I didn't have a single problem that I was aware of. Then came a letter from Dodge. They offered to buy back my truck for what I paid for it, even though it was nearly a year old. No deductions for mileage, nothing. Or, they would pay me a fee and repaint my truck and warranty it for life. Or, I could trade it for a brand new truck. Why? Because they found that they had left an ingredient out of the paint that would cause it to peel.

Just yesterday, I read the post about Mazda offering to buy back their car because of a HP discrepancy.

MINIUSA, that's customer service. That's being pro-active. Why don't you get off your duffs and spend less time on your clever marketing and start living up to the hype. Be a standup corporation and give me a MINI that's perfect. You can sell mine on E-bay in 10 minutes after you get that software working in December.

See ya,
JS

 

I'm taking delivery of my second MCS in November.
If it stumbles, (and I'm sure it will) count me in.

 

Just to let y'all know, I just sent a letter to the NC Attorney General's office about this issue.

Lemon Law varies from state to state, but many are similar. Here is info from the NC Attorney General's office regarding lemon law in NC:


http://autopedia.com/html/LemonLaw/NC_lemonlaw3.html

It's worth a read. I've asked for clarification from the AG if a fix isn't available, does that allow one to proceed with lemon law without the required four attempts at fixing. If not, we can always test drive the car immediately after a "fix" is performed, and ask that the car be looked at again if it stumbles. Basically, don't take the car until they try four times to fix an unfixable problem.

Good luck to everyone.

See ya,
JS

 

NO! not interested... I want the problem fixed but I do not want to sue them for money...

 

>>
>>If MINI is producing a small percentage of cars with stumble issues, this could easily be checked before the cars are released. They could hold those cars and not release them. MINI chooses to release cars with the stumble issue. They do this knowingly and deliberately. Think about that for a moment. MINI knowingly and willingly releases cars with a quality control issue. What kind of car company does that? That is a very poor business decision. It shows lack of integrity, lack of concern for the customer, and lack of quality control standards.
>>

I believe this to be illegal in the US - blatant breach of implied warrantee and certainly not ISO 9002.



>>You know, I'm reminded of a situation I had with a Dodge Dakota pickup. I purchased the Dodge and drove it nearly a year. I didn't have a single problem that I was aware of. Then came a letter from Dodge. They offered to buy back my truck for what I paid for it, even though it was nearly a year old. No deductions for mileage, nothing. Or, they would pay me a fee and repaint my truck and warranty it for life. Or, I could trade it for a brand new truck. Why? Because they found that they had left an ingredient out of the paint that would cause it to peel.
>>
>>Just yesterday, I read the post about Mazda offering to buy back their car because of a HP discrepancy.
>>

The consumer should expect nothing less from a manufacturer that charges money for a product. This IS what "customer" service is all about.

If you have bought a MINI from BMW - to them your money is their "customer" and seems to be all that they are willing to service and KEEP as a "customer". That is not to say that dealer service agents aren't doing what they can to try and make people happy (not mine) but they can only do so much. I for one truely feel sorry for these people (except mine and any others that are dishonest - If only everyone was like Randy Webb)

The fact that cars have had a stumble introduced instantaneously with a software revision does support this being a software only problem but this again begs the question - Give me the car that doesn't stumble software? To which there is a deafening silence from the ranks of BMW.

_________________
'03 S DS

 

<<<NO! not interested... I want the problem fixed but I do not want to sue them for money...>>>

Ok. Don't then. But if you'll read, you'll see that we aren't interested in money, just satisfaction. And if it takes a lawyer to help me get what I paid for, then I'm certainly not going to sit on my butt and wait for a delinquent company to get around to me "eventually". The long and short of it: it's my money, so they're going to have to start working in MY timeframe.


Alright, so we have some interest. I'm going to talk to the lawyer and see what he thinks about what we want--mainly just our cars fixed. Chi, I'll definitely pass along your ECU equivalent idea--I don't think it's an unreasonable equivalent at all, but just so I make sure we're on the same page, you are primarily interested in getting your car fixed, correct? Such that any money (if any) that would come our way would be secondary to the fix?

While I don't understand all the intricacies of class action suits (yet) I'm fairly certain that we would have to ask for *some* monetary reward, as that's essentially what pays the lawyers fees--otherwise we pay fees out of pocket. But I don't know--I'll find out tomorrow.

I agree with waiting for December, and I think I'm going to take the following course of action:

1. Call MINIUSA tomorrow, as both a prospective buyer AND a disgruntled owner (as someone suggested) and see what kind of response I get.

2. I am primarily interested in finding out if it really IS the government that's holding stuff up with re-certification procedures. If it's not BMW/MINI we can all put our guns back in our holsters. I don't see why they can't answer this very simple yes/no question and if they tell me that they can't, I would be tempted to have the lawyer write corporate a letter strongly suggesting the use of legal action unless they come clean with the consumers.

Very well then, I'll be back in a bit with an update.
:smile:

 

>>
>>2. I am primarily interested in finding out if it really IS the government that's holding stuff up with re-certification procedures. If it's not BMW/MINI we can all put our guns back in our holsters. I don't see why they can't answer this very simple yes/no question and if they tell me that they can't, I would be tempted to have the lawyer write corporate a letter strongly suggesting the use of legal action unless they come clean with the consumers.
>>

This theoretical government hold up of software approval still doesn't explain why some cars do and some don't work. I'd also be asking for some kind of varification to back up their claims if this is the case - it's far too easy for them to just fob you off with this kind of claim.

Good luck in getting any substantial info from ASK-MINI - I look forward to your update.

 

For anyone who is interested: I had some fairly happy news today regarding the stumble. Please read my two posts in the main Stumble thread if you're interested.

Stumble

Cheers!

 

Somehow, this thread just doesn't seem to fit into MCO's spirit. I thought better of those folks. Oh well, just typical Americans I guess. :???:

 

Yes, let's all make his mother's firm rich........ class action lawsuits, I don't want no part of them. If you as an individual suffered you will get more redress by staying clear of this BS lawsuits. I can see it now, $25 million dollar settlement and each member of the class action suit gets a free oil change and $250 off their next purchase of a MINI Cooper.

Oh boy where do I sign up.... sigh.....

jc

 

If I qualify, and it proves to be advantageous to ME, I'll join.

Keep me posted.

 

If MINIUSA can try and sue both minicooperonline and mini-motorsport as well as many other groups, why in the world would you hesitate to use their own tactics against them. My mini don't stumble, but if I go through another windshield, we got another one for their 800 pound gorilla lawyers.

BC-Ya can't motor in a courtroom

 

So I guess you guys would rather we sit back on our collective tails and eat the BS we're fed from this corporation that took our money knowing the product was BAD in a bad way.

I believe most of the active participants here have put up with way beyond what is reasonable to expect in seeking a repair. Just asking for your money back or a car that works does not work with this seemingly devious corporation - so they will be delt with on their terms.

Go for it.

_________________
'03 S DS

 

<<< Yes, let's all make his mother's firm rich>>>

1. Do I type very male? I must, I'm always accused of being a guy.

2. My mother doesn't work for a firm. It's a two person operation--she and the lawyer. Not that that makes a bit of difference.

3. People against class-actions: kindly READ the post prior to badmouthing people not willing to chuck $23k out the window on a whim. No one here wants money. WE WANT OUR CARS FIXED. Am I willing to make MINIUSA pay for the legal fees associated with 5+ months of driving misery? Yes! Oh no! I wouldn't want to inconvenience a giant, multi-national corporation with the worst customer service I've ever witnessed! No! Anything but that! Please!

I'm going out on a limb, here, and assuming that your car is fine? Cause if it's not, I can't possibly imagine how you justify allowing this company to rake you over the coals after a good-faith purchase.

We have been collectively NOT doing anything but listening to MINIUSA lie to us about our cars. Well, I'm sick of it. And since nothing ELSE anyone does seems to get ANY attention, I am more than happy to present myself and my problem in a manner that the corporation *just might* pay a bit more attention to: an angry mob, backed by legal representation.

If you don't want in, you don't NEED to post, you know. There is no compelling reason to tell people that they should indefinitely take the crap-fodder MINIUSA is shoving down our throats.


PS... if a "typical American" is one who's not willing to take less than what they paid for then, by all means, strap on the title cause I'm damn sure proud NOT to be a corporate doormat.

_________________

 

Kelly,

Before hearing of a class-action suit (a very specialized type of civil action, usually in Federal Court, in which the same injury is inflicted upon the affected class), I'd be curious to see how many folks have received a remedy via the lemon laws of their state. My thoughts is that there are very few if any to date.

 

^^ so does that mean that, since we can't get it fixed via Lemon Law we should all just give up and suffer silently??? I am not eligeable for lemon law in my state because I put too many miles on my car waiting for MINIUSA to release the fix "in about 30 days"

 

No, of course not.

But it does mean that in order to meet the threshhold test for a class action, there should be some demonstrable history of the problem already within the legal system.

Just trying to make your job easier.

p.s. check this out for your state's lemon law. http://autopedia.com/html/HotLinks_Lemon2.html

_________________
BLUBELLE - 2003 MCS IB /W Premium, Sport, Cold pkgs, Lapis blue interior, Magnecor wires, Alta Pulley, Moss Skid Plate, Chrome Trim Interior