I don't think you should have been scared of this in the first place. My 2008 MCS ticks along as quiet at the day I first drove it off the lot and it's been 13 months and 22,000 miles.

You have to remember that it's very difficult to determine the actual number of cases based on the posts made on the web. There's too many variables to draw any statistical data; from people who post many times about it, to people who don't post at all, to people making posts who don't have the problem at all. Once you take in all the possibilities, the data from the number of posts is simply too unreliable to use.

 

Order the car . With the revised tensioner design going into new factory engines March 2009, this problem should not show up on post-March '09 cars. Be careful if you decide to buy a '09 off the lot, as it's engine may have been assembled prior to March '09. The latest fix appears to finally solve the chain rattle problem - so far.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldMGguy

Order the car . With the revised tensioner design going into new factory engines March 2009, this problem should not show up on post-March '09 cars. Be careful if you decide to buy a '09 off the lot, as it's engine may have been assembled prior to March '09. The latest fix appears to finally solve the chain rattle problem - so far.

Thanks oldMGguy,... that's what I wanted to hear!

I don't think you should have been scared of this in the first place. My 2008 MCS ticks along as quiet at the day I first drove it off the lot and it's been 13 months and 22,000 miles.

Thanks Ken,... initially the MCS was going to be a year round car, and since we live in Canada, cold weather was always going to be an issue, but the two year wait has allowed us to pay off the Toyota Matrix we bought instead and now the 2010 MCS will be used only in good weather,... save all the road salt for the Toyotas!

Frank

 

We made the appointment at Murray for the maintenance and to get the rattle fixed. When my husband told the advisor of the rattle, the guy asked what year. My husband said it was an '07 and the advisor notified him that it's "normal".
So, since it sounds like I'm going to have to prove? that it's not just normal, what would you guys who've already gotten it fixed suggest I take along to show them? Anything? We're dropping it off there and getting it shipped back home (400+ miles) so I'd like to be sure it gets fixed while there and I won't ever have to deal w/it again.

 

Well, we can be generous and assume the SA (remember, they're schedulers, not certified mechanics) meant "normal" as in they all have defective tensioners. Or, you're dealing with someone who knows just enough to be a jerk.

Make it clear to these people in no uncertain terms timing chain cold start rattle is NOT NORMAL!! If they persist, ask them to identify any other similiar-sized vehicle whose engine also makes the noise (aren't any). There are numerous posts on this forum about vehicles that had suffered significant damage to the timing chain guides, rails, chain links, and sprockets in as few as 4,000 miles. Damage is happening during the "rattle" episode. If the SA still is a jerk about it, ask to work with their supervisor instead.

The relevant document covering the official BMW technical bulletin and repair order is SIM-11-02-07. If you need reinforcements, ask your SA to contact the MINI service advisors at Rasmussen MINI in Portland, OR for information. They are up to speed on the problem and the correct way to fix it, and a pleasure to work with . If you have the option, I highly recommend you send your car to Portland instead. Talk to Ann, Joel, or Bob Wells, their boss. http://www.rasmussenmini.com/

SIM-11-02-07 requires the dealership verify the chain rattle does indeed occur. The dealership will need to let the car sit for 8 hours or more, then start it. If it doesn't rattle, they will need to let it sit for another 5-6 hours before trying again. There are a lot of reports that the engine is significantly more likely to exhibit the chain rattle (due to tensioner piston collapse) if it is parked in a nose-low attitude overnight. That set my '07 off every time, and a dealer loaner '08 MCS that was always quiet on level starts would indeed rattle big-time if parked for 5+ hours nose downhill. So, wherever you send it, ask them to park it on a ramp overnight.

 

I guess that I got a little lucky, My 07 MCSA with 25,000 miles had the cold start for the 5th time in a year and a half of ownership. Made an appointment to have that looked at as well as the sunroof sticking, and transmission mount rattle.
I asked SA if I needed to prove that my car did indeed rattle, he said no, that per SIM 11 02 07 that the mechanic has to perform certain steps of this SIM (steps 1-11 in my case) and found that due to the chain-slack measurement, what would need to be replaced. Naturally, parts are on back-order for the tranny mount and timing chain issues.

 

To play devil's advocate: I've seen a lot of people mistake the MCS's normal injector and engine sounds for a manfunctioning engine. Your "a--hole" SA might just be someone who's had to deal with several overly-irate customers complaining that their perfectly functioning engine has gone bad because "it's making noises" that they don't understand.

I'm not saying that anyone here has done that, but I know for every person here who knows what their engine is doing, there are several who have no clue and will adamantly argue they're right, anyway. If your SA doesn't know you and they've had several clueless people yelling at them that the injector noise is the "death rattle they've read all about on the internet" the SA is going to get pretty jaded pretty quickly.

I always try to see the problem from the other person's view before saying anything. Life is a lot easier that way.

 

While I'm willing to be patient and explain everything to the SA when we see him/her, I'll also be very adamant that this is a REAL issue and it needs to be addressed NOW. If they don't fix it, and it gets shipped back to me with the rattle still occurring, all hell will break loose.
It wouldn't be a big deal to me if I had a dealership in the same town, state, or even one state over. But for the expense of trips to take it to the "closest" dealership and get it fixed, it's important to me that they do it right the first time...as should be the case no matter the owner, or where they live in relation to a dealership.

 

I hear you..and good luck! My car is in the shop 3 hours away and I have no idea when I will get it back. The cold start issue is top priority for me too and I got the same "yeah that's normal" comment from the SA. I told him that there was a service bulletin out on this and I wanted it checked.

Realistically I'm not expecting that they will do anything if they can't hear the rattle. And, the weather has changed (it' HOT!) and the chatter isn't as noticeable. So I will likely have to wait until next winter. The good part about that is we are getting a new dealership which is much closer.

 

Mini Tech here on health leave. That noise is the Chain tension. There is
that bulletin. What the bulletin says is to Rev. Engine for 15 minutes @ above
2500 RPM. Then let sit for 5 minutes. This has to be repeated up to 5 times
if noise still occcurs then the tensioner is just building up air pockets. So
for the guy who live 400 miles away. Try this first. Your foot will get tired
put like a piece of wood or something between the seat and gas pedal. put like a towel in front of seat so you dont damage material

I got lucky with this fix many times. good luck to all.

 

hmm, maybe this is why my rev-to-3K at shutoff method results in no banging engine, even if parked nose-down and left cold for days? Air pockets in the tensioners??

 

Or, could you just take a trip someplace more than an hour's freeway drive away?

Why would someone need to go thru these gyrations on a new car? Seems like nonsense to me, especially since the tensioner is so easy to change - takes less than an hour, right?

 

Dave,

I took alook at my invoice for the fix last week and my dealer did the fully Monty on all the parts in the service bulliten. They recorded 7.5 which I believe somewhere on the SI M 11 02 07 notice it states the allowance for each of the components. It surprised me, but then I'm not a mechanic

 

That's what I would do. Why torture the starter when you can get the same results with a gentle drive? My experience tell me that stopping the engine has no effect on the oil system; the noise gets fixed after a certain amount of engine running time because any oil pressure or bubble problems get fixed by moving oil through the engine. If, however, there are other problems causing the noise, then that could be affected by stopping and starting the engine, but those problems should be treated as separate from the tensioner problem.

 

When you quote the 7.5, are you talking about the labor that was billed? If so, that would be about right. In SI M 11 02 07, the labor is quoted in FRU's (Flate Rate Units) and the allowance per the bulletin is 78. A bit of research shows the BMW-MINI considers there to be 10 FRU's per hour, so that's 7.8 hours of labor, or pretty much one full working day for one mechanic.

That suggests that changing the tensioner is a bit more than just a simple job, but far from the most complex job to do.

 

Yes 7.5 hours was the labor charge on the invoice. Obviously not a DIY job

 

you have to pull the head, hence the time it takes. But it is a DIY if your comfortable with open heart automotive surgury at home. I did my head on my 02 MCS at home....

Matt

 

I was told changing the tensioner only on the R56/55 is fairly easy, you get at it from under the valve cover, not the head and it's a screw out the old - screw in the new one type job. However changing the chains, slides etc is a good sized job - thus the 7.5 hours labor.

 

I did a DIY brain surgery once, but it didn't turn out well, then I became a goalie. Getting pucks to the head was cheaper than a lobotomy

 

I got the car to MINI of Murray today. When I walked in, before I even got a chance to sit down, I was told that the rattle I hear is "normal". I was then told the same thing again, twice, before I finally got a little cranky and told him the SIM # and what the specs say (regarding the 69mm limit?) and that it's a documented issue that's been through multiple "fixes" and that it can mess up the engine if it's left to rattle. At that point he finally started listening, I think, and said he'd look into the bulletin. (I was about to mention Rasmussen before he agreed to find out about the problem) He also said that if they had to change the tensioner, then it'd be in for a few days at least, since they'd have to get into the engine...
Now I just have to wait & see what I get back when they're done.
Thanks for the tips!

Mel
currently Nigel-less and hating it

 

you guys are off. that 10 is 1 hr or less. They only pay us a little over an Hr to to the job. I have did one. Its tight and a little time consuming. But no chain tensioner on any many mini pays what those times were. You saw something like 7/10 of a hr. now if it said 10.0 FRU thats 9.8 hrs. and 10 FRU acutally less becuase 1 FRU is 0.8 of a hr.

and listen driving it may not get the noise to leave. The engineer came up with Revving a for 15 minutes or so. and letting it sit so its a constant throttle evenly for that elasped time.

All my post was to try to help the guy who live 400 miles away.

 

Sure thing, I stand corrected on how to rectify the problem. If you're working on Mini's, you're going to have a lot more experience than I do. Far be it for me to second guess the engineers; I'm going off of general information, which is why I usually say "in my opinion" or something to that effect.

So, since you've seen the tensioner, is there anything visible that would prevent it from inflating under driving conditions? My experience is once an engine goes past idle speed, the oil pressure quickly reaches the point where the pressure relief valve opens, to prevent over-pressure from damaging seals. That results in a steady oil pressure and flow that's independant of throttle position, which (I would assume) is enough to move the tensioner ramp. Does accelerating the engine cause enough increase in timing chain tension that it overcomes the piston's ability to move the tensioner?

So Mini considers 1 FRU to be 0.8 of an hour? Hmm, so I wonder why the allowance in the bulletin is 78 FRU's; that would be 97.5 labor hours, or over a full working week for 2 mechanics.

You're absolutely correct when you say the cylinder head stays on. The timing chain, by definition, has to go between the crankshaft and camshafts. That means, in an upright 4 cylinder engine like this, it's outside the engine under a cover, usually just behind where the belt(s) are. That's confirmed by the reports that the inner wheel arch cover has to be removed to gain access to the area.

I don't envy you working on the Mini's engine. It's very tight in there, worse than the instrument panel of a Mooney airplane. Not to mention being underpaid by MINI while doing it.

 

It's kinda like we're living in a parallel universe right now. My car has been in the shop (only 3 hours away) since Monday and I called yesterday for an update. I reiterated to the SA that I expected the cold start issue to be resolved as per the service bulletin and that I would not be a happy camper if it weren't. The SA replied "I understand". So we will see. At least I riding in a loaner.

 

I just had SIM 11-02-07 completed on my MINI with great results. Louise went in on Wednesday and I got her back on Saturday. Louise is much quieter and smoother now. I love my MINI dealer!!!

 

To add insult to the "normal" injury--my car was broken into at the dealership last night, and my iPod was stolen. The iPod that they requested I leave there to look into another problem I was having. This is turning into a nightmare...