Hi all, this will be my fifth season autocrossing and I decided to use this season to work on my driving and test/tune my '04 MCS.

I run in two different SCCA regions here in Oklahoma. I've won several GS championship in both regions. I took the championship in SM in the OKLAHOMA region and 2nd in the NEOKLA region last year.

I believe that I need to work more on my skills though, try to smooth out my driving and so on. I'm reading the book Speed Secrets Winning autocross Techniques and realize I got a lot of work to do on my techniques and driving skills.

Here is the mods I have done so far and planning on more during the year.
rear swaybar
adjustable swaybar ends.
strut tower plates
15% pulley
CAI
catback exhaust
OS GIKEN STR CLUTCH/FLYWHEEL
Quaffie LSD
Engine Dampner
Wilwood Big Brake Kit
stainless steel brake lines (front and rear)
16x7.5 Kosei K1 racing wheels
V710 215/40 16 tires
Unichip

My suspension is next on my list. I'm planning on getting adjustable shocks, lowering springs and rear upper/lower adjustable control arms.

I think I know about what I want, but would like to hear from you guys for any other things I might try doing to get me more competitive at regional levels. The reason I took SM last year was due to no real competition. My Pax times sucks and that is the reason I'm using this season for training and tuning.

Jon

 

Good to hear from you and good luck in SM class.

The best of your mods is the Quaife, Kosei wheels and V710 tires.

The missing link for you is lack of front negative camber and suspension upgrades.

Which rear swaybar do you have? 19 or 22mm and what hole is it set to?

You likely have about -0.5 degrees front camber and about -1.6 degrees in the rear. What toe settings are you using front and rear?

You'd want to add coilovers that let you adjust ride height and dampening/rebound of the shocks. And you will need fully adjustable front camber plates.

Without more front negative camber you cannot make good use of your good tires and you will definitely be overheating the front outside edges of the tires.

For more power get the RMW ECU tune- even with a 15% pulley it should be good and worth the effort.

No need to change the header. Loose the rear seat completely to save about 40 lbs and run with 1/8th tank (carry an extra 5 gallon gas container).

How much do you weigh? If you are not lean then exercise and diet.

Evo school would be a great investment. Books are good, Speed secrets is a good series. You can read them over and over with a bit of rest in between.

Don't use old V710 tires. They are good for about 10 events and become worn. Otherwise they are decent in that size.

In my region SM class is very large and competitive from 12 to 18 drivers per event. Many run tires up to 275mm wide. BMW M3s, WRX Sti, and RX-8 are tops and very difficult to beat. Usually margin of win is about 0.1 seconds or less between the top 4 spots. We have no new R56 MINIs, only about four R53 MINIs.

Get one of the more experienced FWD drivers to take you for a ride or maybe even drive your MINI on the course during fun runs or test and tune day. You can get a feel for how fast you should or can be going.

When I started autocross I was about 6 to 9 seconds behind the fastest drivers. Now I try for 0.5 to less than 1 sec behind and maybe as high as top 5 out of over 100 drivers on raw time, this puts me top 10 on PAX. But it isn't easy and nothing is certain.

 

My swaybar is 22mm set at the outside hole the softest setting.

I install my clutch, flywheel and Quafie at end of last year haven't ran a autocross with it yet. In the process of putting my brakes and lines on now.

My alignment is still stock.

Running the V710 tires and Kosei wheel setup with the alignment I have now the heat has been about the same across the tires.

My first autocross this season is Mar. 1st next Sunday and it will be like driving a totally different car.

This is my daily driver, autocross and track day car. I also sometimes pull a teardrop camping trailer, which I use for camping and tire/parts trailer. So I was wondering if the lowering of the car be a problem with towing the trailer?

 

Swaybar setting is fine for now. Likely you can keep it there.

If alignment is stock and your tire temps are even then I "know" you can drive harder and faster.

Typically the outside front edges of your tires even street tires should be 6 or more degrees hotter than the middle and insides (really cold).

Even temperatures mean that you are using the tires well but an indication that you are not pushing it.

Also, when you add Quaife you can push it even more since you can make better use of your front traction now. Do not drive like you did before, you must think you can push harder after adding Quaife.

Anytime you add upgrades you must learn how to drive better to make use of the improvements. If you allow yourself to be comfortable and drive the same then there is no reason to upgrade.

In SM class usually we see MINIs that are fully upgraded in suspension but in your case you are still stock. Lowering springs and shocks are OK but typically you get a rougher ride and for a daily driver that might be a little harsh. Koni Yellow shocks and lowering springs might work for you.

Lowering should be OK with a trailer. The more you load up in your MINI the harsher the ride can be. What are your daily driver wheels and tires? Too large and the lowered suspension can lead to rubbing esp in the rear.

 

Right now my street tires are Yokoma S-drives 205/45 17 on stock wheels.

 

You should be OK since you have stock sized tires and should have enough clearance with lowering.

You should seriously consider EVO school someday, sooner better than later.

 

I agree with minihune as with no real front camber and even temps you are definately not "pushing it", I generaly run about 5 deg. hotter on the outside edge and that's with -2.0 deg of camber. +1 for the EVO school or any autox school for that matter as it gives you a relaxed stress free enviroment to learn from those who know, besides the added benifit of SEAT TIME!!!! I'm very surprised that you have that many mods on your car (even adjustable end links) and no camber, springs or shocks. You are definately going to need some school once you add your camber, shocks and springs cause you will be able to push that fat girl faster than you ever thought possible. I might suggest as minihune had said, to add some toe as well, not alot since it's your daily driver but some and some will make a big bifference when you turn her in (she will go now and where you want). A small adjustment is all I did and I got great results. Try 1/16" toe out in front and 1/16" toe in for the rear. Try not going more than a 1/16" toe in for the rear, much more than that and will start affecting straight line stability. I know you heard this before but seat time, seat time, seat time, is the key, but maybe you haven't since you don't have some of the most advatageous mods on your MINI , but as minihune said the LSD wheels and tires are your best mods but I would add the adjustable RSW as well cause this is where neutral starts. The MINI is too lose in the rear and it takes alot of rear tire pressure to get it close to neutral with pressure adjustment alone. Minihune do you know for sure if a change in the amount of metal in the bushing of the control arms would put one in a modified class or is that allowed in SM? the only reason I bring this up is the Alta control arms are very nice but have significantly more metal vs stock and the H-sport do not. Most Mini autoxers including me use the H-sport for this reason but most of us are in ST2 or ST and the ones that are in SM have the pulley.

Minihune you have to be one hell of a bad *** to be within .5 to 1 sec from TTOD. The best I have been able to muster (with rt-615's) is about 6 seconds. Then again the AZ region is flooded with national champions in all classes SM XP DS DSP to name a few. I can say that I'm consistantly -6 to 6.5 seconds back and the only Mini out there that I have yet to beat is a Pro GS mini on 710's which I'm about -.5 to 1 second behind him.

When these guys show up, which is most of the time my pax scores are around the 930's when they don't or I'm competing in another region then they are in the 960's with a 995 top pax score thus far.

jnop, good luck with the autoxing and the best tip I can give you is this. If you want to be smooth, turn early and turn small and pay attention to your car! Tires should not be talking to you when you enter a turn, they should talk during the turn, squeeling tires are happy tires but not if your entering a turn! Turning early and small is great for smooth driving but you cannot be smooth if your not entering the turn at the right speed. When you hit it right, it will be like WHOA I barely made that turn. Personaly I've been autoxing for about 2 years and still feel I need more time before I go to r-comps and you are in them already. I was told to stay away until I'm ready, and I figure I'll be ready when my improvemnt from second run to final run is less than 1 second. I feel like I'm leaving about .5 second out there after my final run and to me that's too much. Perhaps next year I will move to r-comps and join the addiction!!!

 

I agree with seat time like I said this my fifth year autocrossing and I've been averaging between 15 to 20 or more events a year. Not only do I run two SCCA regions for points, I also do some of the local PCA club events for seat time.

I got my big brakes install today, so now I can start saving and planning what I want to do with my suspension now. Like I said this season will be mainly, working on myself as a driver and teest/tune my car if I can afford it. Hopefully I'll have it ready for next year season and work for the points.

Thank you both for your help and I'll keep you post on what I do to her.

 

Hey Jon,

If you want to really improve your Mini, definitely get some front camber plates, and, coilovers if you decide you want to spend the monies.

I am actually getting ready to list some Leda DA coilovers with remote reservoirs. I think they are $4kish new, I was going to sell for $1250 shipped.

 

Generally the more the front negative camber the better but the OP posted that his tire temps in the front are even with stock alignment and no suspension mods except for the rear swaybar.

So unless he learns how to really push the limits it might not be as big a factor and certainly a major expense but still worth considering. That's why driving school would make more sense than all the suspension upgrades at this time- or do both is OK.

Even for the rest of us, we really aren't making full use of our MINIs and mods I feel. It takes time to learn and make the most of what we have in our MINIs. The simplest test is if you can get any other driver to jump in your car and he can drive the same course faster than you then you know your MINI is not the limiting factor. It's almost always driver skill.

As for my region- it's tough to do well in SM now. People are really doing pretty well. Here's a sample.

8/31/2008 Solo event Hawaii Raw times and class (Pax overall)
1. 1971 Datsun 240 Z 32.748 sec 1st in BSP (1st PAX out of 115)
2. Toyota MR2 33.004 sec 1st in CSP (2nd PAX)
3. BMW M3 33.293 sec, 1st in SM (5th PAX)
4. Porsche GT3 33.492 sec 1st in SS (4th PAX)
5. Subaru STi 33.535 sec, 2nd in SM (7th PAX)
6. MINI Cooper S (me) 33.588 sec, 3rd in SM (8th PAX)

Not a bad day but still off the mark. I think my MINI could have got low 33.
An example of driving skill, the SM class BMW had a codriver that clocked 35.121 sec good for 4th in SM but almost 2 full seconds slower. I watch the other drivers and they look pretty darn fast and wonder how the MINI can keep up. Not sure but it can. People tell me all the time they like to watch the MINI.

 

I haven't check my tire temps with a pyrometer, just by touch. So it might be a little hotter on the outside edge, this Sunday is the first event this season and I do have a laser pryometer that I will use to see how hot they get and where the hottest spot are.

I run 32 to 35 psi in my front tires and 25 to 30 psi in my rear tires. How do those tire pressure sound or do you recommend different pressures.

 

I run 41 front and 38 rear pressure, I adjust the rear by 1-2 lbs depending on how she's rotating that day.

The hottest region on my treads with -2 deg up front is, about 1" in from the outside shoulder then the outermost edge then the inner most edge then the middle with about 5 deg from coldest to hottest.

 

Just by touch? This doesn't count. Touch is unreliable and not quantifiable.

Tire temperatures are measured by tire pyrometer- either probe type or infrared. They must be checked immediately after your run within a few seconds. If you wait even a minute the tires will cool off and your readings will be different.

During autocross the natural tendency is to drive hard and fast on a relatively short course. This means that the outside rubber temperature will be very warm to hot and the inner temperature will be cold unless the day is hot and you are running late in the day. As a result often the tire temperatures are fairly low when you check them and hardly in the optimal range.

Temperatures will vary with your driving skill and technique and with your tires and suspension setup. Each brand of tire will have different pressures suggested then you must adjust.

Kumho V710 can be run on lower temperatures. About 29 to 33 in the rear is common and 32 to 36 in the front when you have maxed out negative camber in the front. With stock alignment some drivers find higher pressures in the rear help more so front 30-32 and rear 34-36.

Hoosier A6 usually run with higher pressures like 42 to 44 psi but you can adjust for your situation.

I chalk by tires to check rollover and check tire pressures. Every course is different so I start at a certain place, write down the numbers and suspension settings and adjust as I go during the event. To assume that one setting will work for all race and environmental conditions is probably too simplistic. Also as tires get more worn their characteristics do change- rubber gets harder- you may need slightly lower pressures.

Only after careful testing will you find the right settings- there are many combinations that might work for you. Then you need to get used to the settings and make the most of them by leaving the suspension and pressures alone and learning to drive well. If you keep changing suspension settings you never will be driving the same way- Do the testing at a test and tune session.

By the way, do you know how we know that -2.0 to -2.4 degrees negative camber is the better front setting vs stock? Not just tire temperatures show it but g force measuring, slalom times and skid pad results show it.

I once went to the track with new track tires on identical wheels. I put two on my fronts and two on a base Cooper for the front. We ran 15 laps and looked at tire wear. Mine had minimal wear and the base cooper with slower speeds (good driver) had significantly more outer tread wear. These were Michelin Pilot Sport Cup made for track.

 

Personaly I would love to break 1.1 lat g's 1.09 is the best I could muster on the rt-615's hoping to get 1.1 or better with the XS. I have an event on the 15th of March and will let you know the results.

 

Yes, please lets us know how you do. I run the RT-615's as my track tires and thinking about going to XS's when they are gone, so I'm very interested on how they do on the autocross course and as track tire.

 

My first autocross of the season was yesterday had to run in the morning session, it started out about 21 deg. and got up to about 32 deg. while I was running. Being so cold I just ran my street tires. I did notice a big difference with running the first time with my new clutch, lighten flywheel, Quaffie LSD and the big brakes. But I did not do as well as I wanted to, out of 8 runs I think I had one clean run. I can't wait for the next one, so I can run my V710 tires.

I had 45psi all around in my street tires. The front left was warm and the rest of my tires where cold after each run.

I was 6 seconds off the top time of the morning. I got sick and had to leave in the middle of the afternoon session so I don't know how well I did for the whole day. I don't know when they will post the results, because it can take them up two weeks to get them posted or they could have them next day(they're very unpredictable).

I do know that I took 1st in SM, because I was the only one in the class.

 

Well you braved the cold. Good for you.

I lived in Colorado for 4 winters, it can be cold.

If I were your competitor in SM class I'd have some Ultra High Perf All Season tires for days when the temperatures are below 35. If you had summer tires on then at 21 to 34 degrees you won't get much grip from them. R compound tires won't work in the cold or wet.

 

On selecting a driving school-
http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/art...ool-selection/

 

I recieved my new XS's and I must say upon closer inspection the tread is a really nice design. The 215/45 profile is nice and low, but not too low, but significantly shorter than the 205/50 15. I didn't realize 5mm was so much when it's on the side wall. I've been waiting on a 225/40 16 but a 215/45 16 is close enough!!

I also have a track event on the 11th of April. It's at FIR west, a small 1.1 mile road course that is sooooo MINI friendly!!

I will have outside air temps, track surface temps, and tire temps along with tire pressure, camber and toe settings, as well as latteral and braking G's and Ill post it up as I get the info.

I may have the info sooner as me and a friend are trying to get some skidpad time before these events to do some test & tune with no competition.

 

Well I finally got to run my first autocross with my new clutch, flywheel, LSD, big brakes and last years V710 tires yesterday. I still have a lot of re getting to know the car with the new upgrades. It really felt good, but I have lot of work to do on the driver.

I only had one car running against me, which was a Honda SI and he beat me by less than a second, due to me not being able to miss one cone each of my runs.

I need to re look at my tire pressures and my driving skills, but other than that I'm happy with the setup I have right now. I am seriously looking for a good suspension to upgrade to at a reasonable price to use for autocross/track days and daily driver use.


Jon

 

I am wondering can you put a 225/40, 45 or 50 17's and/or 16's on a MCS with wilwood big brakes on the front with a 5mm spacer? And would I need some spacers on the rear also? I'm thinking about going to a 225/40, 45 or 50 16's R-compounds next year for autocrossing and thinking of getting some XS's 225/45 17's for track use.


Jon

 

I have really enjoyed this thread. I run my 05 MCSC JCW in STX. The only mod so far is Rande Webb Rear Sway bar, and an M7 Strut Tower Brace. I typically run on Azenis 615s on 16 TrakLights.

I have been doing Auto X for about 2.5 years, and while I have improved a lot, I still have a couple of seconds in the most important modification...ME, so I am going to drive to Farmington NM for the National tour event and do the Evo School there. More seat time...Good!

Our local club used to do a test and tune event at the beginning of every season, but that has stopped, and I have never been able to take advantage of that. I think it would be useful so I could figure out the oversteer/understeer and tire pressure etc.

I have been thinking about adding Cross Coilovers, but that is as far as my thinking has gotten. I mostly want to have fun (which I do) but I don't want to embarrass myself too much.

This thread was quite interesting, and I thank all of you for sharing!

 

Several weeks ago I purchase a used Unichip with all the same mods thats on my car and install it a day before an autocross, didn't notice much of a difference in the way the car handled. The following week I had another autocross and notice some differnces and was the 12th fastest time out of 54.

I'm still running on last year V710s and probally will stay with them for the rest of the season, like I said before I'm just using this year as test/tune to get familiar with my car new mods and anything else I might need to do to the car before 2010 season. I've been looking at the Toyo R888 tires for next season for autocrossing and track days, has anyone tried the R888 tires on MCS yet?


I'm also learning that yes I can not drive her like I use to. I need to learn to drive her harder with all the mods I already put on her.

I'm still looking for the right suspension for her. Any help will be appreciate.

 

Ok, soon as M7 gets restock with their Coilovers, I will order me a set. I will also get the H-sport upper and lower control arms plus a pair of H-sport camber plates.

Does anyone run the m7 Coilovers?

I'll need some ideas on how to get my car align for a daily driver/autocross and some track days, so any and all help will be appreciated. Plus also I will be towing a teardrop trailer some too.

Jon

 

Good to see a revive in this thread. My car is also set up in SM and has quite a way to go before I or it become competitive (if ever). Took first for street tire in my local region last time in raw time, but the PAX on SM is, logically, pretty brutal.

Don't know much about the m7s. As far as alignment, I re-align my car for autocross each event as I swap my wheels/tires (via my camber plates), so your situation may be different if you want to "set and forget."

I set max negative camber in the front (probably -3.5). The only real issue with this is that adding more negative camber will actually create more toe in in the front. I'm not sure to what extent.. but it's the opposite of what you want to have happen. I need to explore this more so that I have just enough toe out on the street to be at (at most) 0 toe at an event. If you want one alignment setting that isn't going to eat through street tires on a regular basis and still works with autocross, I'd stay near -2 degrees.

In the rear I run -1.0 camber, 0 toe. This would be a fine setting for street use also, though you may knock it down to -.5 if you want to offset a less aggressive, street-friendly camber setup in the front.

I am by no means an expert, however.. so if anyone wants to jump in and tell me I'm completely wrong, I am certainly willing to learn!