First, I'm not sure I like the phrase "attack" but seeing as how it's been referred to that way I think people know what it refers to.

I'm open to reasonable suggestions on this one, keeping in mind that NAM is an open forum, and encourages discussion.

FWIW, we already monitor these threads closely and contact the other party by PM or e-mail or phone to draw their attention to the thread.


Some possible suggestions (share yours if you have more)

- Lock the thread for 24 hrs, leaving it in the forum, to give the vendor time to respond without having 2-3 pages of posting to wade through?

- Move the thread off the forum and move it back 24 or 48 hours later?

- Move the thread off the forum, get the other side's input, post that input as the second post to the thread, and then move that back out to the open forum.

Like I was trying to get at before, I would really appreciate it if people would have contacted the vendor within the past couple days regarding the issue they are posting about.

These posts dealing with things that are weeks or months old, where the vendor hasn't heard from the poster and assumes all is well, only to be quasi ambushed on the open forum months later, aren't fair to the vendor and they ultimately do very little to help the customer. Keep in mind that vendors don't live on NAM. A full day or two could pass before they respond. Innocent or guilty or some shade of the two, all we get is one person's opinion about what happened until the other party posts.

Also keep in mind as you make suggestions, that as Moderators and Admins, we're not here to be fact finders and prepare summaries of what we believe to be true. We're here to help provide an open (and respectful) environment for people to share their thoughts, not filter them.

If you don't feel comfortable posting a suggestion, please PM me.

 

Performance Mods Modified Fight Club Rules

If you intend to post an "attack thread" here are the rules:


1st RULE: You do talk to the other party on the phone about the issue you intend to post about within 48 hours of posting and try to work something out between the two of you. DO NOT stew about something for weeks or months after events have transpired and then broadside someone by posting without warning and without trying to remedy the situation.

2nd RULE: You DO talk to the other party on the phone about the issue you intend to post about within 48 hours of posting and try to work something out between the two of you. DO NOT stew about something for weeks or months after events have transpired and then broadside someone by posting without warning and without trying to remedy the situation.

3rd RULE: Following your phone conversation, you must PM the other party with the full text of what you intend to post. You must CC mferguson and DiD on that PM.

4th RULE: Once mferguson and DiD hear back from BOTH parties via PM OR decide that a reasonable amount of time has past and the other party is being unresponsive (several days), an "ok to post" will be provided. Wait for that "ok", from either DiD or mferguson. If you have posted prior to getting the "ok" sign, your post will be moved to our Under Review area, and it will be moved out by mferguson or DiD after we hear back from both parties.

5th RULE: One thread at a time. Do not post a second thread on the same subject.

6th RULE: No shirts, no shoes.

7th RULE: Threads will go on as long as they have to. They will be monitored and they will be moderated if need be.

8th RULE: Threads that have ceased being productive will be locked or removed.

9th RULE: Keep it civil, respectful, and fact based. Stay away from name calling and telling us the other person is a liar. You have your side, they have theirs, and it doesn't add clarity to accuse someone of lying.

NOTE: If we deem that a thread fits in this category it will be moved to Under Review until such time as RULES 1 through 4 have been followed.

 

First, thanks DiD for listening, and making this thread happen. I suppose it is incumbent upon me to start things off...

Before we can have an answer, let's first make clear the question or the need involved here. We need to have a protocol of sorts for when a customer is not satisfied when transacting with one of our vendors.

I stand by the word choice of "attack" because the obvious outcome of such an expression is harmful to the vendor. And while that might not always be the intent, in a couple examples, it most certainly was. The vendors are part of our community, and since they pay to play, they need some protections to assure that such criticism is well-founded and appropriate.

Upon becoming a member of the Community, we are asked to agree to certain terms and conditions. Maybe one more should be added. A member should not blast a vendor here unless they have pursued all reasonable avenues, privately. If there is a settlement or agreement, like a check, and it's cashing, there has been a meeting of the minds. Thereafter, taking it to the forum has the sole purpose to make the vendor look bad, and hurt his future business prospects. This is not acceptable, especially after the two parties have worked toward an agreement. If the customer doesn't like the proposed settlement or terms of the vendor, then sure, air it here, if so inclined...

Once a thread does start, I think DiD proposed some thought-provoking ways to handle it. I feel the third option to be the best:

Move the thread off the forum, get the other side's input, post to the that input as the second post to the thread, and then move that back out to the open forum.

The 24 and 48-hour thing sort of turns me off as I know that sometimes vendors are at Nationals, MINI-related events, vacation, or otherwise incommunicado. Now, with that said, if the vendor never does reply, the thread should not just disappear either! That's not fair for the customer who might have a legitimate complaint. Once notified of the thread, the vendor should be provided adequate time to do some research and craft a response, like 72 hours. If after that time there is no rebuttle, make the thread live again for public consumption...

I'm sure there are more ideas, as I have some more now as well, but I don't want to dump it all here and now... Thanks again!

 

I think the proposed rules sound quite reasonable.

 

One problem I see with the proposed rules is that, if a vendor just refuses to respond, to the PM or to contact attempts from NAM the complaint could just be in limbo. And I think that the complaint and the response should be posted somewhere no matter what (maybe even locked if appropriate), excluding regular posting restrictions, otherwise NAM will end up trying to decide whether this stuff is legitimate or not. Other wise sounds like a very reasonable set of rules.

 

DiD,

I'd be the first person to tell you I really dislike reading about vendor/client disagreements... especially in subject specific forums like "performance." However, I also despise censorship in any degree or under any guise. I am an American who has lived and worked overseas for more than 20 years, and I've got to say, we are soooo fortunate to have a country and society that is tollerant of anyone who wishes to "speak out" regardless of one's personal opinions. I cheerish everyone's right to speak out-- even when I disagree.

I do like to generally look at which vendors generate more complaints than others. I find that to be valuable data as a consumer. I could care less about all the finger pointing or details of a disagreement. Isolated events hold no merit for me... I look at trends, and would hope that all consumers do the same. I think this is why the ebay system is so successful.

Rules and proceedures hamper communication and open discussion. That being said, I'd like to make a suggestion for your consideration. Trim down your rules, and create another forum area or designate the general discussion forum for these issues. Notifying a "subscribed" vendor of a potential attack is a terrific service though and recommend it stay in place. I can also see the merit of temporarily locking a thread until a vendor can get to a computer and respond.

Keep up the great service, DiD. I can't tell you how useful this site is. Its beyond measure. Thanks!
regards,
Chris

 

While rules and procedures can dissuade open discussion, like the laws of our land, they are needed for a civil society, one that affords safeguards and protections for us all.

The intent here is to first educate folks of a better way to handle their affairs; so ideally it doesn't need to evolve into an issue for all of us to ponder. If through this improved professionalism an agreement is not reached, I certainly wouldn't want anyone to feel inhibited from sharing with us all the experience. Open discussion is very much welcome, but one that is minus proper preliminary steps toward resolution and forethought as to the ramifications of their actions (the impact of the creation of such an announcement) is something that we should not condone.

And we should not assume that everyone who starts such a thread is on the up-and-up (that they are indeed a customer with a real experience to share). There have been ulterior motives in the past that really reveal the lengths one will go to make another look bad. I will not elaborate... I think there is no need. Suffice it to say, a vendor who has more negative commentary simply might be a vendor who is on someone's radar screen, for whatever reason...

Two recent threads have led to this healthy discourse. In those two scenarios (different vendors), once the vendor's side of the story was shared, the vast majority of folks found the complaints to be baseless, or petty at best. And while the damage to the vendor was then limited, the time spent, anguish and frustration over having to deal with such an outburst is a cost that is not recoverable...

There's a better way, and I am very appreciative that we are working toward that end!

 

I suggest that there be no rules. I base my suggestion on the following:

• There are no rules for the abundance of baseless product claims.
• There are no rules for the abundance of vaporware.
• There are no rules for threads of vendor or product praise (baseless or not).
• There are no rules protecting the consumer from vendors.

However, I am for getting these crappy threads out of the performance forum.

 

The 4th Rule has been edited to address this.

Agreed. I think the issue we're trying to handle here though really isn't a "Censorship" issue though since people would get to post their side in full once they followed the steps to have a recent conversation with the other party and inform them of their continued intent to post. The problem here is that if there aren't restrictions on these threads we get one side of the story for 2 or 3 pages and then the other side's response gets burried. Damage is already done at that point.

Hopefully the rules evolving above will be a fair way to handle these situations going forward. People can still speak out and like I said in Rule #7, the discussion will go on as long as necessary, but there needs to be an honest effort put forward to resolve the situation and notify the other party in a timely fashion.

We're on the same page. My hope would be that RULE #1 actually improves the chances of the customer and the vendor both being able to come out more satisfied with the final outcome.

 

I do not believe in censorship however I do believe there is no need for flame wars. I do also believe that it always a consumer that starts the complaint and not the vendor. Sometimes or should I say most times it is the consumer that has exhausted all efforts in reconciling with the vendor that leads to a posting in a public forum.
What tends to make these threads grotesque is that other people who have no interest get involved.
Therefore it would be my recommendation that a vendor/consumer complaint forum be established. That the person making the complaint be allowed to speak his/her mind and that the thread be locked until the other significant party responds. This allows the two parties to work out, in public view, what they could not in private without additional rhetoric that just adds fuel to the fire.

This is just my opinion,
Dave

 

Great idea dave....
btw.... let me know when you and the Mrs. are going motoring to the wine country of temecula.... wifey wants to taste some wine...

 

Originally Posted by macncheese
I suggest that there be no rules. I base my suggestion on the following:

• There are no rules for the abundance of baseless product claims.
• There are no rules for the abundance of vaporware.
• There are no rules for threads of vendor or product praise (baseless or not).
• There are no rules protecting the consumer from vendors.

However, I am for getting these crappy threads out of the performance forum.
RIGHT ON !

Originally Posted by D1JL
I do not believe in censorship however I do believe there is no need for flame wars. I do also believe that it's always a consumer that starts the complaint and not the vendor. Sometimes or should I say most times it is the consumer that has exhausted all efforts in reconciling with the vendor that leads to a posting in a public forum.
What tends to make these threads grotesque is that other people who have no interest get involved.
Therefore it would be my recommendation that a vendor/consumer complaint forum be established. That the person making the complaint be allowed to speak his/her mind and that the thread be locked until the other significant party responds. This allows the two parties to work out, in public view, what they could not in private without additional rhetoric that just adds fuel to the fire.
That's what I call Vendor fan's, they fan the fire when they should just butt out! Only establish guide lines as suggested, let the two of them go at it and let the public decide.
Niether of the last two Vendor's called out by consumers have a true Mission statements posted on thier web sites maybe NAM should require them to set some guide lines for doing business here or is it buyer beware, if so then let the public decide by the way they conduct themselves.
A Vendor/consumer complaint forum gets my vote.

 

HERE HERE!!! To the basement! let's have a specific area for this!!! To dook it ouuuuuut!!! LOL

or just say hey these guys rock...

 

maybe there is a module for this forum software similar to:

http://www.resellerratings.com/

--
Cheese

 

Actually we're very close to launching a product/vendor review system. Mark should post about that a little later.

 

DiD, I just saw your proposed rules... I guess I posted moments afterwards, and never saw them, until now...

If something like this were in place, the two most recent outbursts/attacks would have materialized much differently. The customer would have been educated on desirable conduct, and this alone might have paved the way toward resolution. The unexpecting vendor would not have been blind-sided. And if the accusation is lacking merit or substance, this approach will protect the vendors from unjustified negative commentary which is debilitating to his business operations.

Also, it is obvious that many folks favor some vendors over others, for whatever reason. That is fine, as we all have our reasons. I find myself favoring a couple in particular, proximity being just part of equation. While I do so, I certainly don't think negatively of another vendor simply because of that relationship. Expressed kudos regarding a vendor is one way to show support, and another way, unfortunately for some, is to knock another one (vendor) down by making them look bad. Assuming that every gripe is from a truly digruntled customer, with no ulterior motives, is simply naive.

The rules would be a welcome addition to the community, and for the vendors, it will offer them some assurance that NAM will not tolerate unjustified attacks on its paying members.

 

Whatever happened to letting the member complain? Sometimes, that's the only way to get it done. Who knows, it may be happening to a lot of people who may not want to be the first to post because all the moderators..and some members..jump on their backs for posting bad about the boards main/only source of funding.

1. Customer has a beef with a vendor...and is not fully satisfied, even if an
agreement has been reached. An agreement isn't the end-all, so I will take what I can get at the time.
2. Customer posts on NAM about that beef...
3. Vendor posts his side....and yes, they do have time to post...especially
if they have "great customer service," they know about the "lone" issue.
4. Everybody makes up their own mind about it...I'm sick and tired of people
jumping on the vendors' bandwagon and cutting down the customer!
Not everyone has a good experience all the time.


I know for a fact that until you post on a forum that the vendor funds that you will never get a response from some vendors....they just don't care after they get your money. Sometimes, even the good ones have bad days and refuse to take care of an issue they normally would take care of.


Limiting what people can post....unless it is full of expletives or obvious outright lies, is nonsense.

It sounds like any negative comments/post about vendors will be locked immediately or deleted.

This board is another form of communication....period.

 

While I have no recommendations, I would be very careful of the direction you take from here:

A number of years ago, there was a Forum that I frequented for another hobby of mine. It was the largest of its type and it was well known for its civil discourse and its general geniality of tone.

A similar situation arose with the vendors. People increasingly used the Forum to bash vendors who they had beefs with. The Moderators decided they would open a forum that dealt solely with vendor complaints. The two parties would have a forum to tell their sides of the story and the members could draw their own conclusions.

Several vendors opined at the time that limiting the ability for satisfied customers to come forward and state their positive experiences put them at a disadvantage. Nonetheless, the New Vendor Complaint Forum was opened.

It took about 17 months, but slowly and one by one, the vendors pulled their support and advertising from the Forum. Some found alternative ways to advertise their products, others worked with local Chaper Groups to start or advertise on newer, smaller sites.

The Forum is still around, but it is a shadow of its former self. Competing Forums that (a) either banned customer complaints or (b) allowed full open discourse are still around and have continued to grow.

I would also caution posters to be very careful of the allegations they make. A very large on-line Aquatic-Plant retailer is suing a couple of members on one of the top Forums for making alleged false accusations regarding customer service and quality of product. I will need to check on this, but I believe the Forum is also named in the suit.

 

DiD,

Another item that hasn't been discussed is maybe the idea of not letting newbies post complaints. I am not just taking these couple of examples as of late, but also in the past. We have had quite a few people in which there first post is a bash, they post a couple of follow ups within the bashing thread and then they leave the site. You rarely ever see (if ever) someone who has been on the site for some time with posts under their belt attacking in the same manner as these people with only a few posts. I think the idea is not to limit good meaningful conversations, but to limit the way the attacks sometimes go. And I think it is almost a rule that a lot of the negative attacks tend to be from first time or early posters. This wouldn't get rid of all the bad attributes of these, but I think it would greatly limit them. Maybe they have to be in First or Second gear before they post a complaint.

I like the idea of a vendor review discussion forum, I think that would help where these are being placed.

I like the rules you outlined above. One that might be interesting to add is that if you agreed to a resolution to the problem, then you shouldn't complain about the resolution. You can still complain about the process surrounding the problem, but if you agreed to a $100 refund, then you should blast the vendor because you didn't like the $100 refund.

 

somebody mentioned ebay earier: so what about having a feedback process like ebay's for the vendors on NAM ? That seems to work out fine there.buyer AND seller feedback. Clearly something should be done.

 

What ever happened to the dealer rating forum.

One like that may be the answer where the customer can "complain/make known what he felt happened to him" and the vendor can give his side of the story. Then anyone wanting to can "rate" the vendor with a 0 to 10 or 1 to 5 score and have three or four lines to say why they gave that rating.

If that was available we would be able to go to the site and see the rating of a vendor we are thinking of making a purchase from. Lots of sites on the net do that....that show prices from six or seven vendors and show the ratings right there.

Earl

 

I'm with macncheese on this one, though I would say leave 'em in the area they relate to. Issue with a power product - power forum. Issue with an interior product - interior forum.

As long as the posts are civil, let them post.
Do the moderators really want to become mediators?
Can we complain about MINI USA, or is that mediated as well?

We're all big boys and girls and can make up our own minds about what is 'reasonable'. I've seen some complaints on here that are ludicrous, many that are valid.

A 'sanitized' forum where only positive comments (and unsubstantiated claims) are allowed, and negative comments are mediated and segregated doesn't do justice to the community.

It doesn't seem to me that there are a huge number of negative or 'attack' posts - certainly not so that it degrades the forum.

 

You know I resent that for one reason....I am currently not a noob...but I am tired of ever site I goto and be come a member that it's like oh....here's the noob....

The reason it's a problem just casue you are a "noob" to Nam has nothing to do with your Knowledge of the real world...

As a 3D artist I have been on a few forums...these kids will trash people especially "noobs" and yet do they know who you are...and who are they..some of these kids are in thier teens...and never even worked in a studio...LOL...not that they can't be talented...

the same applies here on name...how many people have worked on cars for the last ten years...well you don't know....some maybe more than ten...one of my local motorers is building his own air plane...a real air plane...sometimes I am talking to him about coming buy to work on his car and he just looks at me like..."yeah and why would I do that"...then I remember...He'S building An Airplane! He has twice as many tools...

anywho...I understand the Idea...however, if someone has a complaint they have a complaint new or veteran...

I know ever one should be requiredto watch this!!!

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...853#post436853

 

I see this like Ultimate Frisbee, we call our own fouls. I'm very uncomfortable with any type of constraint. I don't see the benefit. The number of these "attack" threads is very small, and in most cases, haven't lasted too long. Limiting discourse isn't good, because others with similar situations (or counter examples) can't chime in.

I think we should do nothing, and just hammer posters who get out of line. Social mores (read peer pressure) has a lot of force. For those that don't get the hint, they can be given a chance to shape up, and if not, suffer temporary or permanant banishment.

I vote for the most reasonable amount of freedoms!

If you're gonna hold the posters to a standard, you have to hold the vendors to a standard as well, and then all the HP claims would have to go!

Matt

 

You probably resent this because you took it out of context. If you capture three words it can sound bad. I have no problems with new people on the board, and I agree that new people are just as legitimate as veterans on the site. My main argument is that we have had a few in the past in which there first post on this site is a massive attack on a respected person or thing, they post a few more times and leave. Most of these people also flood the other forums such as roadfly, Mini2 and regional forums with an exact same post. The only purpose of something like this is to degrade the vendor and they are less interested in getting a resolution or having a constructive argument as much as just trying to inflict the most amount of pain from someone and feeling satisfied that they got a bunch of people riled up about it. This was the only context I was coming from.