Seriously, in the past couple of days I've seen a growing trend of threads getting locked. You know, some of the topics might be border line NAM illegal, and some might be NAM illegal. Maybe by right they should be locked, but mostly with all this I see a certain attitude with some of the moderators.

Personally, I think there should be a new rule applied to NAM. They say no posting things indicating street racing or high speed on public streets. I think this should go towards pictures that could be interpreted to be high speed incidents on public streets. There is a certain moderator here on NAM that has a picture of a MINI speedometer at the 150 MPH limit. Maybe the picture is doctored, maybe it's not even real, however I could take that as him driving his car at 150 on a public street. Yet he is a moderator and shuts down threads. Am I missing something here.

 

Good point. I hope threads dont start getting locked because of all the non-DOT approved parts we mention putting on our cars. Since they are illegal too...

 

"Big Brother" is watching.......

 

I think the mods do a great job of giving posters a pretty long leash and usually offer an opportunity for a thread to get back on track before resorting to a lock. Usually if a thread is going down the toilet, plenty of advance warning is issued before the offending posters paint themselves into a corner.

A speedo reading of 150 doesn't translate to street racing. There are plenty of track threads and legitimate racing discussions here.

You should be thanking the mods--as I am doing now--for their service in doing what is largely a thankless and often second-guessed job. Stop a moment and think about the cesspool that would be NAM if these controls were not in place.

 

The Speedo thing is a good point be it right or wrong, but I have to back the moderators here. As most of us have one time or another been on some other car forums the attitude and verbal banter seems to escalate with the age and affordability of the cars. Example I came from a Maxima forum where thread locking was common place and things got "off topic" very quickly. When I first came on this forum approx 2 years ago I was pleasantly surprised at the maturity and good nature of the members, a lot of this is reflected in the type of cars especially the Mini. The Classic Mini was never about bling and the bling attitude but now it seems to be seeping in more and more as our 1st Gen's become more affordable. We are all on here because we love our Mini's ( I know I am) and that may be all we have in common so we should try to keep it at that and try to avoid the gray area's. Unfortunately we as a group don't always do that.... hence we have moderators and rightly so, keep up the good work and lets remember the sole reason we are on here............ Just my 2 cents and "Happy New year!

BTW Wrong thread section!!!!!!! Moderators please move

 

No, what I meant is that ME seeing a picture of a speedo maxed out at 150 mphs, not necessarily you. I might percieve that as being something that happened on the street. It's like if you posted a picture of your car going down a flight of stairs, I might perceive this as having taken place on the streets. It might have just been a photoshopped picture, I don't know this though.

Yes, I agree, that the mods do a great job of keeping the place clean. This was not meant as a personal attack at any person, it just seemed like recently there have been numerous attituded flaring. As a matter of fact, I know some of the mods here personally. I like to rant.....a lot, and if you can't tell, I like a little controversy too.

 

Moderating behavior such as inappropriate language or threads that turn into more than just colorful commentary is completely appropriate. Definitely locking threads that clearly comment on illegal activities is also appropriate. However, making loose generalizations or parallels to illegal activities is a dangerous move. As Fatherdeth points out - then you have to be suspect of things like speedo pictures that show speeds exceeding legal limits (moderator or not -definitely worse if it's a moderator).

This is a free, internet based car enthusiast forum dedicated to a car with a long history of speed. Many owners modify the vehicle to enhance acceleration, speed and handling and most of the owners drive the vehicle primarily and/or solely on public roads. There are numerous posts that comment on the results of these enhancements as reviewed by the owner after being tested not in a closed, sanctioned circuit, but on these aforementioned public roads. To overly censor commentary that isn't clearly depicting one or more drivers operating their vehicle outside the boundaries of the law is dangerous and far too difficult to balance fairly. Moreover, for Moderators to personalize commentary and excessively use their "authority" is just silly and undermines the basis of a forum. It's colorful commentary that allows us as owners of unique cars (that clearly depict an extension of our personalities) to express ourselves and identify with other similar car enthusiasts.

Maybe we should all have little infraction tickets we can hand out when we decide that someone isn't playing as nicely as we want them to on the playground! Oh that's right, this isn't grade school, this isn't a playground - it's the big bad internet and sometimes people are going say things that you don't like. They're not necessarily inappropriate and sometimes in jest - if you don't like it, brush it off, surf to another page and come back. Drink some hot cocoa, stare at the picture of your mother-sister-girlfriend (if that's your thing) and get over it. On the other hand, if the tone is turning angry and hateful, then a Moderator should intervene. But if we all start handing out infractions because someone is a little more witty or better looking on the internet, then things are way out of hand.

 

And I agree with gil galad that being a moderator is a thankless job and that without them a forum could spin out of a control. However, there must be balance - locking threads that aren't clearly in violation is inappropriate and is censorship. Personalizing commentary in a free, internet based forum is a very clear indication that someone shouldn't be using the internet. It's kinda like getting mad at Howard Stern's or Rush Limbaugh's radio programs - you don't have to listen to it, you don't have to call in (but if you do, you don't have to like what he says to you) - but what you can do, what you can control is turning the station and choosing when or whether you come back. What you shouldn't do though, when you're called out or their commentary is just a little more witty than yours, is make it a personal vendetta and attack the program under the guise of doing it for the rules or the people.

 

I think the moderators do a splendid job of keeping this place a nice one to come & visit for all of us.

While I don't always agree with the locking of a thread, I'd say in most instances it is justified.

It's simple really, there are rules here, you either follow them or or you don't. If you don't then, well a moderator is going to remind you of those rules. If that bothers anyone then they'll need to go someplace else if they can't abide by the rules here.

Does one honestly think a 150mph speedo in a sig indicates an endorsement of street racing?

Guidelines... https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/guidelines

Motor on...

 

I do, because my supervisor uses a picture on his forum he took of his Mercury Marauder's speedo at 140 MPHs and it's a real picture. And my original post wasn't necessarily about the rules, it's the "Ha, I locked your thread!!" attitude I was complaining about. But as I stated before, I know a couple of the moderators personally, so I'm not bashing everybody.

 

The moderators walk a fine line and have for the most part done excellent work in keeping this site on track. It is a totally thankless job and the chances of hurting someone's feelings 'cuz they locked a thread are pretty high. But this is not done by having everyone vote on whether or not a thread should be locked; rather they have to apply the NAM guidelines and their own good judgement.
Way to go guys!
BTW: a picture of a speedometer no more signifies high speed driving than a picture of a stop light signifies street drag racing. C'mon guys, get real.

 

You're emphasizing the point I think we're attempting to make - my recent thread was locked because, according to the moderator "Edge" it was violating NAM guidelines about street racing because there were comments about keeping up with other cars, etc. Albeit, it was NOT a thread about drag racing, did NOT use the term drag or street race and in NO WAY suggested illegal racing activity. It was a thread exploring why the MCS feels quicker 0-60 then published figures.

In a thread that doesn't mention speed (measured by mph), but alludes to speed (which duh, this entire forum about a little car built to drive fun, fast and spirited is really about) one could then infer drag racing, street racing and moving violations left and right. On the other hand, in a thread that doesn't mention mph, one could argue no association to drag racing (like you said a red light doesn't equate to drag racing).

Moderators should lock threads that become personal attacks on a person or a group or company. They should lock threads that clearly celebrate or endorse illegal activity. But, to lock threads that could be construed (by some, but not others) as similar or like topics that are clearly banned is by all means censorship. If you want that, then you need to leave a free, public forum like NAM and create an exclusive, paid, member only site that clearly can monitor and control what someone says, does, acts and looks like. And, if you'd like feel free to call yourself Hitler and call your posse the **** regime!

 

They have to practice censorship. NAM has sold out to advertisers who don't want to be related to illegal activities. So in order to keep the $$$ coming in, they must enforce the demands of the advertisers. After all, this is all about money, not MINIs.

 

True because we all know that purchasing a smaller supercharger pulley or suspension kit is about how cool the car looks in the garage, not about what it does to make it more fun to violate traffic laws (even if your intentions are innocent in the name of fun!)

 

You're overreaching here. I've seen one of the threads in question and the post originally flagged clearly was discussing extremely high speeds on the ROAD, not a track (unless you regularly stop at a gas station at the track??).

In addition, when a moderator noted the thread was "close" to being locked, personal attacks started.

The other blatantly discussed street racing, and even included vulgarity

The guidelines are what they are, they were broken, and the thread was locked. Not exactly rocket science. Instead of attacking the mod, perhaps a smarter approach would have been say "of course, on the track only". Then rules are not broken, no infractions would have been given, and the thread could have carried on (the legal parts of which were actually interesting).

ALL of these site guidelines were broken over the course of these two threads:

I don't know how you expect them to not be either edited or locked under those circumstances.

 

Interesting, we get one group that tells us we don't do enough to protect the vendors when someone slams a vendor publicly and another that says we are sell outs.

You want my 2 cents on that particular thread lock?

Well here is is.

I reported the post because of the language. One "offensive" word that is even used in PG-13 movies but bleeped on broadcast TV and radio. I was being lazy and wanted a moderator to handle it as opposed to an admin, which I am. Just wanted to share the workload so to speak. The admin that picked it up read more into the thread than was really there. A simple note to the OP of the "bad" word saying "hey, watch the language please and oh yeah I edited the post to clean the word out" would have been sufficient. But both parties being strong willed had to get their 2 cents in and the admin took out the broad sword closing the thread when only a tweezers to pull the bad word was needed.

This is a case of over moderation. It happens, probably a whole lot less often then under moderation. We let a lot of reported stuff slide by. Don't see ya'll putting up a fuss when we do that now...

Let it go guys...

Thanks

 

First off it's *a single thread* and here's the link to it https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post2603209
Tough yes I've locked others. Ohhh, and the one you took issue to was locked for the explicit street racing not the insinuated claim of 6800RPM in 3rd in a 45MPH zone which is roughly 90-98MPH in a 45MPH zone. And strike was issued for street racing, not street racing speeding and respect guidelines violations. It was Christmas eve and I was excersing my prerogative toward judgment. Even though the OP state he knew he wasn't allowed to post such street racing accounts.

Second it wasn't personal, and when I moderate it never is. (and that's why I've sat on your PM for a few days now, so that I could respond in a calm manner, however you decided patience wasn't that important I guess.)

Third, I'm an administrator not a moderator

Fourth, my avatar (not my signature) is of 153 not 150 MPH. And its a photo that was cleared for me to post loooooong (in excess of one if not two years) before I was a moderator.

Fifth, it isn't of a speed the MINI is even capable of. It's about as accurate as saying warp 5, it's called satire. The car is governed electronically to 134MPH and with that remove tops out at 142MPH and that's with engine upgrades. Do you believe the MINI is capable if it said 200MPH? 250MPH? 350MPH? 750MPH? Mach 3? 342453898320389048950MPH? Warp 5? Again it's a judgment thing. I try to use common sense, and to me that means if every MINI brochure and most of the first gen reviews and all of the posts from the autobahn and tracks here say the car tops out at a certain point well something that's a good chunk of the speedometer past that doesn't seem realistic to me, and quite a few other people for that matter. My car currently idles at 8k RPM and at 30-50MPH I'm already seeing 10-14kRPM (needle splitting the digital speed reading right down the middle) the MINI is know to float a valve at 8k RPM, should I be believing my tach implicitly?

Sixth, the guidelines don't say talking about speed is prohibited, they say talking about excessive speed on public roads is prohibited. Notice your posts about drag racing on a TRACK stayed there just fine and you have not been issued strikes for posting those. There's been several threads talking about speed and tops speeds and how fast one can reach on the track or derestricted sections of the autobahn that have been allowed to continue. In fact I encourage them and throw in my experience of hitting 130 before looking up to watch for my next apex at Sebring intl. raceway. And I encourage people to participate in tack days and learn about and have fun with their cars in a safe manner.

Seventh, the car was sitting still in my driveway with the engine off. Press the trip button, turn the key while holding it and you'll get into some computer functions, function 2 is a gauge test, it spins the needles all the way round, while flashing all of your dash lights, I snapped a photo. I was traveling all of 0MPH sitting on my driveway (not a public road BTW). If you search for it there's a few threads explaining this feature and this photo has been posted several times, along with several other people's photos. The thread that I locked, the OP said he was on the street, and said he was racing a random car of "teenagers" (as a whole the most inexperienced drivers out there, so statistically the most likely to make a mistake and cause an accident) and did so with a decent amount of cursing, hence the edit, or I'd have let it stand altogether as an example of what not to post.

Eighth, the guidelines are there for legal and community purposes. They we're there long before IB ever showed up on NAM, the have nothing to do with vendors, they have nothing to do with money (aside from legal protection so the site isn't open to getting shut down from a lawsuit) Those vendors I'm sure will encourage you to use those products responsibly. Darwinism doesn't create much repeat business Many of us around here see the track (even at least two of the admins) and there's an entire forum dedicated to track discussion.

Ninth, it's ironic, the thread asking for stricter rules, and the first page already is complaining they're too strict.

Ludicrous speed, it's satire, it's humor and it's an admin being educated and understanding and using judgment. There's always going to be someone to complain, it's the nature of large groups, it's really too bad that the Kudos given to all the mods, are overshadowed by the complaints here. It all boils down to individual judgment calls about just where the lines in the sand are. But if the community would prefer it I can take the photo down and be heavy handed with anything indicating anything hint over the speed limit. I'm not opposed to legitimate and reasonable change, to reflect the state of the community.

 

Thank you Gnatster - that was my point (colorfully articulated in my last post in the thread to Edge and then less colorfully via PM) - his/her response was as you said - broad sword rather than tweezers. I agree, I used an inappropriate word and as far as I recollect it's the only time I've done so since being a part of this forum. The decision to lock the thread and more importantly to issue infractions is excessive - it's like a police officer deciding to give you an extra ticket because he doesn't like your attitude or didn't think you were nice enough after he pulled you over - it's not within his jurisdiction and it's abuse of authority.

And regarding the comment about personal attacks on the Moderator - seriously, a personal attack would indicate a personal reference to something or someone -making jest of the situation and even suggesting that the moderator was motivated to his/her actions b/c they may have been the driver or passenger of the supposed honda is called sarcasm - it's a forum, it's bound to get a little heated and even mildly vivid. To construe it as personal suggests an improper understanding of the technology and vernacular styles used within and moreover may suggest that much like driving a performance car - one should validate an ability and understanding of the technology before attempting to utilize it. In other words, don't complain about getting kicked in the face when you step into an MMA ring and then cry hey wait a minute, that dude just kicked my butt that's not fair- i just wanted to hold hands and talk about flowers and sing love songs!

 

I just wanted to throw in a thank you to the moderators and admins. I've been involved in some other forums (from guns to cars to outdoor sports) and this one is by far the one of the best because of the excellent moderation of the threads.

As for the threads that have been locked... it seems to me that were indeed in violation of NAM policies. Looks like they're just doing their jobs.

 

+1 gnatster. My impression was that the thread was locked (and infraction issued, to boot) more as a 'neener-neener' than a standard site regulation enforcement. It appeared to be about what was said to whom, not what was said. Far more poignant 'insults' are written every day, and pass by the wayside as they should. The mods do have a tough job, but let them consider this feedback.

 

Gotta second that. At first I was on the side of the thread starter. I like to think of myself as live-and-let-live, even libertarian. I enjoy the OPs confrontational style and his efforts to stir things up. After reviewing the threads in question (if, that is, these are the threads that the OP had in mind) I gotta say that those threads were in violation, and I applaud the Admins/Mods for keeping the forum out of the cesspool. I have, myself, succumbed to temptation, occasionally driving my car in a manner that could only be considered "safe" on a legal race track, but I have never felt the need to "brag" about my inability to control my urges. And regardless, to narrate such an event to the level of detail described in these threads is just asking to get whomped. I'll take my self-esteem from someplace other than the car I drive and how fast I can make it go. And I hope that this isn't too personal but, who's the bigger punk, the person who occasionally thinks with his/her right foot instead of his/her head, or the person who gets on to forums and brags about street racing teenagers?

 

Sorry but I also forgot to make a point that Eric_Rowland just made. Just a bit of feedback for the Moderator, the closing of the thread did come across a bit as Eric_Rowland so deftly put it, a bit of a 'neener-neener'. Could have just quoted the violations and closed the thread, 'nuff said.

 

I really appreciate the feedback that everyone is giving here, but I want to make a few things clear:

1. The thread was not closed for language
2. The infraction was not issued for language

The thread was closed because it was already borderline in terms of illegal driving activities (not just posted numbers) by multiple posters (not just the OP), and when a polite reminder was posted, the OP decided to engage in a personal attack instead of accepting the reminder and moving on. Since it was the OP that did this, and it was "his" thread, I made a judgement call at that point and closed it.

The infraction was issued for the personal attack, and it was a very minor infraction, in light of the other options available.

I stand by my decisions on this. The decisions were never personal until the OP decided to make it personal. It was easier at that point to *** it in the bud, and that's what I did. He challenged my authority here, when I had already given out a lot of rope (by deciding not to issue an infraction for language in the first place), and the rope ran out.

This forum may be hosted on the Internet, and it may be free, but it is not governed by "freedom of speech" laws. It is a privilege to be a member here, not a right... that goes for everyone, yes me as well. The guidelines are there for a reason, and if you can't follow them, you're welcome to leave. If you have a problem with the guidelines, that's what this forum is for - as many other members have already posted here when they had a concern or complaint about them or anything else.

 

is *** really a banned word?

edit - yes. As if people really still use the perjorative of Nipponese

 

Machines don't discriminate. I thought it was stupid too when I saw it. I sure didn't add that one to the dictionary, and I agree it can probably be removed. Perhaps after the holiday break, the entire admin team will look at the word blocks and tidy it up a bit.