Started in the M7 Coilover thread a lot of issues started spilling out. This thread is an attempt to catalog the major issue points brought up and see if we, as a community, can discuss them with the goal of finding a way to solve them. We'll split out additional threads as needed to discuss each of these in detail.

1) The NAM Groupie/fanboy effect - piling on when a vendor issue comes up either supporting or disparaging a vendor to the death. Deliberate antagonizing is a part of this.

2) Issues with R&D in the MINI market

Others?

 

Posting PMs

If Vendors use PMs as a marketing tool and bash other vendors, products and people through this avenue they should be able to be openly discussed. That is just my opinion.

Also what is the policy regarding PM? Does NAM Admins have the right to read and monitor others PM? If so the community should know this.

 

I feel that they can be discussed but I don't like the idea of the private message contents being posted without the sender's permission. It seems better to consider them private unless you receive permission to post them.

Obviously since I maintain the database I can look at PMs if needed. That said the only time that I will is if some contacts us indicating that a member has violated the site guidelines using the PM system. The most recent case of when I had to go into the PM system was when we had a spammer that came onto the site and sent 10-15 private messages soliciting what looked to be a financial scam from members. I went in, figured out who it was coming from, contacted the recipients to let them know that it was a potential scam and to ignore the messages, and then removed the spam messages, and banned the sender.

Mark

 

One problem I see is Vendors or their "groupies" starting threads in discussion forums "hyping" product offerings that have been posted in the Vendor Announcements forum. Threads started in the discussion forums regarding product offerings should either be asking a specific question about the product or presenting a review of the product.

Vendors should be held to the same standard of "respecting others" as any other member. Just because they pay money doesn't give them license to be rude.

Vendors need to realize that how they conduct themselves on this site might factor into a person's decision on buying their products.

 

I would be very careful about posting a PM. Email is automatically protected under copyright law. Of course, "fair use" implies. See http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

"... email messages are protected as soon as created"

 

No worry about e-mail copywrite violations. Ideas and facts are not copywrited. Plus, something has to be copywrited to be copywrited.

 

While ideas and facts are not copywrited, you can't just post and entire email sent to you because you don't own it.

Sorry but you do not have to "register" the copyright for it to be protected. It's automatically protected. Again, see http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm and a dozen other references. However, registration is required to bring suit. Further, you do not need to put a copyright notice in the Email. It's automatically copyrighted. However, adding one doesn't hurt.

Here is a link to some "copyright" myths.

"E-mail is a written work that once created is copyright protected by the author. This means you cannot post publicly an e-mail sent to you privately. You cannot post private e-mails to your site, to message boards or to your blog without the author's specific permission to do so."

While these may not be legal references from lawyers, the website all basically say the same thing you can draw your own conclusions from it.

 

Chow4us we are talking PM not email.

Mark thanks for the infomation.

 

A clarification...for the purposes of the site we're specifically addressing issues of posting private messages. While similar to email, they aren't exactly the same thing. That said, I personally, see them in the same light as email and don't want them posted in other areas of the site unless permission is received from the original sender. This would also extend to forwarding a private message to people on the site without the original sender's permission.

The private messaging system can be used however members choose as long as the site guidelines are not being violated. Just to be clear though...site guidelines apply to posts, private messaging, and any means by which members communicate through the NAM site.

If someone uses Contact Us to report a private message that violates the site guidelines we will look into it and take action as appropriate. Just because other members cannot see it does not mean the guidelines have been forgotten. Also, I just added some additional information to the guidelines to more clearly state where the guidelines apply to the site.

If you have additional questions or ideas don't hesitate to put them forward.

Mark

 

I will echo the above. I would also add that once a topic is in the open forum it should be expected that a peer type review will follow and questions will be asked. Unless NAM policy is changed to discourage such dialog, than perhaps a clearer policy and stricter enforcement of "groupie" behavior is needed.

 

Copyright on the internet - If you read through the page it is clear that the intent of this is to protect "created" works, for example, books, art, poems, etc., "For example, only expression is protected, not facts or ideas"

The intent is to protect these kinds of expression when posted on the internet, for example,a poet posting their poems on the web. The poem should be protect and not plagerized by cutting and pasting to another website.

It does not seem to me that PM's fall into this category. Nor do emails. It is an estabished legal fact that there is no expectation of privacy in email communications. As the internet by its nature is not a secure medium any expectation of privacy is false. It has also been held that the company that owns the email system owns all the correspondance. As a mater of fact, it is one of the major parts of the Sarbain-Oxley (sp) act. I am sure the same reasoning would apply to PMs.

 

"Groupie" behavior and the piling on that sometimes happens needs to be curtailed. Not only in the positive but in the negative as well.

I sometimes wonder if NAM has a large enough or commited enough moderation staff to keep some of these threads in check. Often a thread will go on and on where some guidance from a mod would have slowed or even stopped the wholesale piling on. Once a mod does get involved it seems that more often then not the dead horse has already been beaten to death and the thread is locked.

There also is no "Meet the Staff" area where one can see who the mods are and what areas they cover.

When it comes to posting PM's that just bad ettiquite. The conversation was meant to be private and should stay that unless both parties consent. To post PM's is much like a gaggle of old women gossiping over the back fence, distasteful yet entertaining.

 

Hey, how come the groupies and fanboys have nothing to contribute? Weren't they the ones complaining the loudest?

 

I don't see the problem about "piling" on. If you got what you want out of the thread, then don't go back to it. As for PM's, not allowing posting of the same just gives vendors and others an opportunity to lie without being called on it (something about 150 satisfied NAM members comes to mind). So, when someone posts an issue here, in PM the vendor can say any bs they like to appease that particular person, but the rest of us NAMmers are left ignorant. Sounds like a great thing for the vendors and a lousy thing for the NAM community. So, I am left with the feeling that being a NAM vendor doesn't correlate to be a trustable vendor.

 

I suggest you read the law ... See http://www.justice.gov/criminal/cybe...ma.html#II.A.7.

"A work is protected by copyright law from the moment it is created, even if it is not registered. See17 U.S.C. §§ 101-102(a), 408(a). Although registration with the Register of Copyrights is not a prerequisite to copyright protection, it generally is a prerequisite to civil enforcement and to some remedies."

It doesn't matter if its email or a PM

"Copyright law protects all "original works of authorship fixed in any tangible medium of expression,"

For that matter, a post is protected (as I interpret that)

As to ideas and facts

"it protects only the creative expression of an idea, but not the idea itself."

While you cannot copyright an idea or fact, the way you express it (opinion?) is copyrighted.Its up to Mark and I believe he has made it clear that he doesn't want PMs posted but just read the references. There is so much "urban legend" around that sometimes its hard to what is not true but anytime you create ... ANYTHING ... its automatically copyrighted.

 

And old saying but the law is the law. If you dont own the material, you cannot reproduce it. Just go ask all the kids sued by RIAA over music.

 

Chows, sorry your are wrong. I work in IT for a newspaper publisher. One of my responsibilities the the Email system and compliance. It is well established that emails are not copyrighted. There is no expectation of privacy. This has been decided by the Supreme Court AFAIK. The bases for it has to do with internet down to it's physical level and the fact that it is a public medium. Look at all the court cases where email communications were subpoenaed from ISP's and email server directly.

As a matter of fact the only reference to email in the link you posted is:

DISCLAIMER: This has nothing to do with this thread. Sorry.

 

Copyright or no copyright, it does not matter. The fact of the matter is that this is a privately owned forum and the owner of the forum has deemed it inapropriate to post the content of a PM from one member to another.

Deems da rules, don't like it, to bad.

In my eyes, like it matters, posting a PM is just wrong.


be reported to sites moderators and mamnagement should deal with the issue as it goes against site guidelines.

Having vendors that pay for advertising is a double edged sword. If an member is wrong by a vendor and reports it often times supportors of the vender "pile on" and make it a living he!! for the poster, no matter the facts of the matter. Jsut as often those with an axe to grind with said vendor jump in and rail against the vendor and the vendors supportors. Vendors feel slighted as their mistake is in the open for all the world to see. Posters on both sides of the issue are slighted since NAM is doing nothing to protect their vendor or doing nothing to dispose of the offending vendor.

Should NAM work as an ombudsman and help the resolve the issues between the two parties?

In the course of everyday business mistakes and misunderstandings are inevitable. It is how the business responds to these issues that shows the true character of the vendor. Somehow we as a group need to collectivly formulate a plan as to how we stop these huge threads where the comminity is bickering over slightest misstep.

 

I agree. Apples and oranges.

 

I'd offer my opinion that there are not enough, based upon my experience on other forums and the immediate clampdown on the sillyness that lasts days on NAM.

 

How about a list identifying all the "groupies" so we can add them to our ignore list

 

Nice find goaljnky. I was trying to find case law but found none for emails. That case looks like one instance of fair usage. However since the site regulations are to not post them, as others have said its moot.

 

Better yet, we can require the groupies to register as such. Kind of like the lobbyists in Washington.

 

This has nothing to do with copywriting.

 

What does any of this have to do with the topic of this thread?