In another thread, we all went off topic, as is often the case. Anyway, the point under discussion was "Is the OBX clone of the SuperSprint unfair competition or just business as usual". Due to the number of posts in that thread, if you want background, you'll have to look here.

So, I went to www.supersprintna.com, the website that appears to be the supersprint web presence for North America. I looked at the prices, and you can spend over $3k for a full exhaust if you buy at the web prices, that are 50% off MSRP. To make it easy, I made a table.



So, if you get the least expensive exhaust system, you get an a price point of over $1700, with no cat or resonator. If you go with the most expensive, you get just shy of $3k! And remember, this is 50% off MSRP.

I think that with pricing like this, OBX could charge a heck of a lot more for their knock off, and still get Supersprints business!

Seems to me that SS really opened the door for this, as the prices look to be stratospheric.

Matt

 

Dr, i will have to agree w/u on this, Super Sprint is crazy expensive, unless they have something that i am not familiar with. Of course, the quality is ther, but how much of a difference of the quality are we talking about? Just does not make sense to throw that much money out, really does not make any sense.

 

I have the SuperSprint, and I would have to agree with you too. Its nice, but its America. Land of the free, where if you can make something cheaper then the market is yours. Unless its patented. But even then there are loopholes. Competition keeps prices down and provides more options and variety. If you disagree, then buy the SuperSprint. But since not everyone wants to spend that much and doesn't mind slightly less quality, yes its a ripoff, but its also healthy for the market.

 

I'm sorry but I think you are wrong......."ripping off" is not the same as competition, but I can't make you see that. If OBX brings to market their own design with their manufacturing "advantages", great...have at it.....sell millions.......what did your grammar school teacher tell you when you copied off your neighbors paper. I am done with this......

 

Even if the quality of the OBX is not as good as the supersprint at SS prices I could buy 3 OBXs.
Looks? Most people can't see the headers anyway besides the OBX's I have seen look pretty good.
The "I bought it cause it was made in America" doesn't fly either. If that was the case we wouldn't be driving MINIs would we?:impatient

 

School work, part of the assignment is original work.
Market space, unprotected stuff is in the public domain.

So the comparison has no relevence here. Also, what do you say to BahamaBarts comments on the pullies? there are many manufacturers out there that make them. And it's not even new to the marque. When I was at Steigemeiers web site, they sell different sized pullies for different apps?

I'm sorry you seem angary here, but your position isn't supported by common business practice, or the law. Also, you haven't addressed the fact that an original creator of unprotected designs may price their stuff out of the markets space. Does anyone actually pay the over $2K MSRP for the SS cat?

Sure, respect for the origninal creator, or whatever is fine. But what if they rip the marketplace off? Are we still obliged to buy from them?

We can agree to disagree on this one. But I can't see any reason based on our commercial law that would require one to buy the SS. Personal preference, yes, but legal obligation? no way.

Matt

 

In a perfect world this is true. But this is capitalist America.

Is Pepsi a ripoff of Coca Cola?

 

but Minitor, i can't wait to see your car

now back to topic

 

I am also sorry for the hijack, but as this thread started because mine was hijacked, I guess I am not sorry. Bad news Scuderia, we are flying down. And renting a god-awful Dodge Neon for real cheap. No MINITOR this time. But he will be accompanying us when we move in June/July. Smileys are like periods.

 

 

There is nothing new about this. This sort of so-called competition is what the contemporary economy is all about.

There is no reason, aside from patent concerns and your particular sense of fair play, that prevents one entity (individual, company) from duplicating some other's design in a cheaper and more efficient way. OBX could have chosen any or all of Milltek, UUC, Borla, Magnaflow, et al to duplicate. I mean really - how many ways can you do a stainless catback that gains one to two HP over stock? (my claim - not theirs).

If some company produces a crap design and some other company clones it at one third the cost then so what? Everyone knows that Mini Cooper aftermarket part's prices are fantastic. This will change with time. This OBX phenomenon is only the start of a reality check on the prices that will eventually bring them in line with aftermarket items for other marques e.q. Hondas, Mazdas, etc..

 

I can only dream of this day.

 

and
Ok, so if you look around your house, how many of the items you have are from the original concept creator? Why are there more than one manufacturer of 1/4-20 nuts and bolts? There are a few illustrative cases that are probably in each of our homes...

Teflon, created by DuPont, and through IP protection and the like, they still get a share of the sales of each and every pot that has some Teflon on it, even though it's just PTFE. They also protected how to make it stick to stuff, and if your gonna put the word Teflon on your product, you deal with DuPont.

MAC computers. They controlled the contents of the Bios, and the OS, and you can only buy a Mac from Apple, execpt for those few years where they licenced it.

Wintel PCs. IBM didn't do what apple did, and you can get a server from IBM, or a low buck product from e-Machines.

Supersprint put no IP protection in thier product. they priced the product at MSRP of over $1000 dollors. Where's the outrage at the price point? They got first mover advantage. They made lots of money when there weren't other games out there. They also weld the parts by hand, and haven't invested in labor saving CNC machines and welders, and the whole market pays for thier decision not to invest in manufacturing productivity enhancements.

And Tony, EVERY pully manufacturer does the "new"design now. But I haven't looked to see if that's just a rip off of what what already sold to other enthusiasts (remember, this isn't the first car to use an Eaton SC!).

I guess I'm stupid. I just don't get it. The market belongs to those that are agile and efficient. An open market is defined as "free and fair access" to products and information. Then the "unseen hand" will guide buyers to the best solution for the particular individual.

The sad thing is that we all take advantage of this, and we're all hurt by it as well. Anyone buy at a discount store? Many hate Wall-Mart, but they're one of the biggest companies in the world. They are both an example of what's good, and what's bad about market economies. Many get good value from them, and many employees don't get good health care.

And SpiderX, the point about AMD and Intel was to illustrate that pricing is based on more than just what it took to bring a product to market, and one of the reasons AMD does well against Intel is that Intel introduces and new bus with each processor generation, and AMD put the next generation processor into the last generation bus/chipset. They both invest, create AND copy.

OBX did steal because SS's lack of protection of the design meant there was NOTHING to steal! OBX invested in however they make the parts, whether it's a computer controlled welding robot or cheap asian labor.

I bet if we dug deep into whats in our cars from the Mini, we'd find stuff made all over the world. With parts that came from original designers, and people who figured out a less expensive way to make a part available elsewhere......

Matt

 

You hire a migrant worker, or get it made off-shore in a sweat shop... then the market is yours.

 

I was up at a semi chip foudary (contract manufacturer) in north portland Maine. They are cost competitive in comparison to the Asian foundaries, with the products they sell, with Americal labor, by just doing it better.

Matt

or another take, is make a part the most expensive way possible, and the market won't be yours for long.....

 

Funny thing is that I totally agree with every thing that you say, SpiderX, in theory. But that is as far as it goes - theory. What you say is truly the "spirit of the law" and the "spirit of capitalism" (and yes I checked my textbook earlier), but is not the reality of the times.

Have you never bought the cheaper version of something, as in not the original design? I admittingly have, and continue to do so as the law allows, to save money. And that is reality. It might not seem fair to the original designer, but it does provide more options for more people, and is the way that things are and will continue to be unless that designer is a giant big business monopoly and/or protected by the government. But otherwise, it is the place and even duty of the marketplace to improve upon products - which means quality and availability (price).

 

Another point to consider... When I was looking for headers for my Mustang, I came across this guy somewhere in Az. You take your car to him, he uses a computer based 3-d measuring system to determin the shape of the available space, give him your engine particulars and where you want power and it's use etc, and he'll design you a custom header to fit your car (most of his business is for racing like Nascar), and it was about $900 a header. Less than the MSRP of the SuperSprint.....

Makes you think....

Matt

 

Does he do MINI's?

 

Personally, I agree with Matt. If it's not patented, copyrighted, etc., it can be legally copied. This has to be figured into any business plan involving a product with no protection on intellectual property. I hold over a dozen US patents, so I have some experience here. Ideally, the competition from OBX should move SS (and other exhaust maufacturers) towards improving their product so they can maintain their margin. In a broader sense, all consumers benefit from this constant product evolution. It also keeps lots of people employed (like me)!

 

Minitor, i am the same way, but sometimes expensive does not mean the same. Last week i was so close to swing $800.00 on a Milltek exhaust, then i started thinking about it, spend days, talked to maybe 50 ppl and decided to go on my own exhaust system, and again, talked to 50 more people and now i saved $600.00 and got a killer system, it does not have a fancy name (Magnaflow?), sounds like a dream, clean, and nice. even after doing it i was sceptical, why? Because got used to spending all the money for a simple mod? We apparently got used to these high prices and over the last few months i started seeing the changes already. Like so many ppl stated in previous posts, SS is overpriced, and in my opinion, it is too much money for 10-12hp. Seriously eventhough there is a supercharger, this is a 4 cylinder 1600cc motor, will not deliver 20-30hp through an exhaust and headers.
As far as OBX is concerned, i have heard a lot of good thing from ppl, however there is only one way to make desicion on it, is to get one. I might in the near future get one and ceramic coat it and put on my car, and unlike $900.00 from Milltek or others, i do not mind spending $200.00 and ceramic c. on it. Too much money for pipes, man, outrageous

 

Well, i bet you it is a high $ custom work, high quality materials, not for masses. Now, i do understand the price for that. Ohh, BTW, Mustangs and headers, especially on V8s, that is a huge poweer gain, beeen there, done that.

 

Well soon I plan on getting the OBX header and connecting it to my overpriced but nice SuperSprint exhaust system (came already installed on the car, by the way). Then they'll be friends.

 

Damn thats funny! Thats worthy of going in a signature right there!!!

 

I love it!

Here's a place that does fancy custom...

http://performanceweldingheaders.com/ No prices, labor plus materials. But you can get a set used from their site for a 66 Nova for $500....
and they charge $65 and hour....

The guys on Horsepower TV did the same thing from someone else.... I think they spend around a kilo buck...

 

Matt, in my commentary, I was addressing someone else's questions in particular... that if I don't have the "orginal" pulley, I bought a cloned one, like this OBX is of the SS. That is certainly not the case, as I explained.

Here is what I responding to:

"I find it interesting how many are up in arms about the OBX header and its legitimacy.

How about pulleys? Who made the first 15%? Are you running an original? or did you buy a ripped off clone?

Or CAI for that matter - several are virtually identical.

I don't hear anyone questioning these other products which unfortunately leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with "ripping off" but more the geographic area involved."
====

The rationale was that this blatant copying was receiving undue and unfair treatment as other mods, namely a pulley and CAI, do not get such criticism. As I shared, they too are not immune, and have also received such feedback. And if a thread were started such as this one or the other one about those products, it would be evident that this is just not an OBX thing. That was what I was addressing...

And I still would like to know what geographic area was being referenced...

As far as having other objects around the house that might also be pure knock-offs, I'm sure I've got plenty; and probably the vast majority are unkown to me (the primary reason).

While it was mentioned that the price of the SS is one the highest for a header, I don't care, as far as this discussion is concerned. I would feel the same if it were priced right smack in the middle. I take issue with the essence of what's being done... what in law books is referred to as malum in se, or wrong in of itself.

Spider brought-up morality, and this Latin phrase is a reminder that the law and morality are not just two different things. In reality, the law is an attempt to codify morality, but at a lowest common denominator level if you will.

Some of us apparently wish there was a higher standard for what should be acceptable. As a guiding point, a high degree of integrity, respect, and appreciation come to mind. Spider's comments about cheating are central in such thinking actually. Doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow. I'll say it again, doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow... With her recent passing, Rosa Parks, bless her heart, is just one reminder.

If there are laws in place that say it's illegal to copy someone's work, it is then recognized that it is wrong to do so. Malum in se sees the act itself as wrong, whether appropriate paperwork was completed beforehand or not. The act is inherently wrong. So, if SS would have spent the time and money to legally protect its design (adding more to the cost btw), the very same action would then now be seen by many as bad. Quite strange, I feel...

A me/me metality, their loss my gain approach, looking for loopholes, rationalizing the letter of the law without feeling its spirit or intent is the culprit. Cut and dry black letter law, the law says it's ok, so too bad, that's the way it is, while very easy to understand of course, just is not acceptable for one who generally goes about their life expecting to do what's right, not just what's ok or tolerable.

If I'm a major company like SS who kicks-out quality product, I'm going to think twice about how much money I spend on R&D going-forward. If I reasonably expect plagarized copies to be out a year later, I just might cut some corners and make something of less quality from the get-go. Financially, that could be the prudent thing to do. For those who want the highest quality product, and for competition to continually bring-out the best, this is not the ideal scenario.

Sorry, but I'm not going to the back of the bus, and I think in time, the big picture of this impact will be more evident.

Like Spider, I've said about all that I can say. Maybe others, like some manufactuers, will share, but the I get the impression that might not happen, unfortunately.

I hope nothing I've said was abrasive or offensive. I still want to know about the "geographic area" though. Then maybe I'll chime in again