Drivetrain OBX Header, unfair copy of Supersprint or just plain old competition?
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Austin, TX
final thought before bed
you guys are speaking my language now, 
shame culture vs. guilt culture
What is wrong/right and morality has really disapeared in the shadow of the law. And as Tony said above, law is a moral code, but on the lowest level. Since immoral deeds above this lowest level are no longer punished, if OBX didn't break the law, it is not commonly considered as immoral. I know that this logic really sucks but it is reality. With that said, maybe I will order my OBX tomorrow. Vroooom vrooooom.
shame culture vs. guilt culture What is wrong/right and morality has really disapeared in the shadow of the law. And as Tony said above, law is a moral code, but on the lowest level. Since immoral deeds above this lowest level are no longer punished, if OBX didn't break the law, it is not commonly considered as immoral. I know that this logic really sucks but it is reality. With that said, maybe I will order my OBX tomorrow. Vroooom vrooooom.
3rd Gear
Joined: Sep 2005
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Originally Posted by The MINITOR
you guys are speaking my language now, shame culture vs. guilt culture
What is wrong/right and morality has really disapeared in the shadow of the law. And as Tony said above, law is a moral code, but on the lowest level. Since immoral deeds above this lowest level are no longer punished, if OBX didn't break the law, it is not commonly considered as immoral. I know that this logic really sucks but it is reality. With that said, maybe I will order my OBX tomorrow. Vroooom vrooooom.
shame culture vs. guilt culture What is wrong/right and morality has really disapeared in the shadow of the law. And as Tony said above, law is a moral code, but on the lowest level. Since immoral deeds above this lowest level are no longer punished, if OBX didn't break the law, it is not commonly considered as immoral. I know that this logic really sucks but it is reality. With that said, maybe I will order my OBX tomorrow. Vroooom vrooooom.
6th Gear
Joined: Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by TonyB
Matt, in my commentary, I was addressing someone else's questions in particular... that if I don't have the "orginal" pulley, I bought a cloned one, like this OBX is of the SS. That is certainly not the case, as I explained.
Here is what I responding to:
"I find it interesting how many are up in arms about the OBX header and its legitimacy.
How about pulleys? Who made the first 15%? Are you running an original? or did you buy a ripped off clone?
Or CAI for that matter - several are virtually identical.
I don't hear anyone questioning these other products which unfortunately leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with "ripping off" but more the geographic area involved."
====
The rationale was that this blatant copying was receiving undue and unfair treatment as other mods, namely a pulley and CAI, do not get such criticism. As I shared, they too are not immune, and have also received such feedback. And if a thread were started such as this one or the other one about those products, it would be evident that this is just not an OBX thing. That was what I was addressing...
And I still would like to know what geographic area was being referenced...
As far as having other objects around the house that might also be pure knock-offs, I'm sure I've got plenty; and probably the vast majority are unkown to me (the primary reason).
While it was mentioned that the price of the SS is one the highest for a header, I don't care, as far as this discussion is concerned. I would feel the same if it were priced right smack in the middle. I take issue with the essence of what's being done... what in law books is referred to as malum in se, or wrong in of itself.
Spider brought-up morality, and this Latin phrase is a reminder that the law and morality are not just two different things. In reality, the law is an attempt to codify morality, but at a lowest common denominator level if you will.
Some of us apparently wish there was a higher standard for what should be acceptable. As a guiding point, a high degree of integrity, respect, and appreciation come to mind. Spider's comments about cheating are central in such thinking actually. Doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow. I'll say it again, doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow... With her recent passing, Rosa Parks, bless her heart, is just one reminder.
If there are laws in place that say it's illegal to copy someone's work, it is then recognized that it is wrong to do so. Malum in se sees the act itself as wrong, whether appropriate paperwork was completed beforehand or not. The act is inherently wrong. So, if SS would have spent the time and money to legally protect its design (adding more to the cost btw), the very same action would then now be seen by many as bad. Quite strange, I feel...
A me/me metality, their loss my gain approach, looking for loopholes, rationalizing the letter of the law without feeling its spirit or intent is the culprit. Cut and dry black letter law, the law says it's ok, so too bad, that's the way it is, while very easy to understand of course, just is not acceptable for one who generally goes about their life expecting to do what's right, not just what's ok or tolerable.
If I'm a major company like SS who kicks-out quality product, I'm going to think twice about how much money I spend on R&D going-forward. If I reasonably expect plagarized copies to be out a year later, I just might cut some corners and make something of less quality from the get-go. Financially, that could be the prudent thing to do. For those who want the highest quality product, and for competition to continually bring-out the best, this is not the ideal scenario.
Sorry, but I'm not going to the back of the bus, and I think in time, the big picture of this impact will be more evident.
Like Spider, I've said about all that I can say. Maybe others, like some manufactuers, will share, but the I get the impression that might not happen, unfortunately.
I hope nothing I've said was abrasive or offensive. I still want to know about the "geographic area" though. Then maybe I'll chime in again
Here is what I responding to:
"I find it interesting how many are up in arms about the OBX header and its legitimacy.
How about pulleys? Who made the first 15%? Are you running an original? or did you buy a ripped off clone?
Or CAI for that matter - several are virtually identical.
I don't hear anyone questioning these other products which unfortunately leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with "ripping off" but more the geographic area involved."
====
The rationale was that this blatant copying was receiving undue and unfair treatment as other mods, namely a pulley and CAI, do not get such criticism. As I shared, they too are not immune, and have also received such feedback. And if a thread were started such as this one or the other one about those products, it would be evident that this is just not an OBX thing. That was what I was addressing...
And I still would like to know what geographic area was being referenced...
As far as having other objects around the house that might also be pure knock-offs, I'm sure I've got plenty; and probably the vast majority are unkown to me (the primary reason).
While it was mentioned that the price of the SS is one the highest for a header, I don't care, as far as this discussion is concerned. I would feel the same if it were priced right smack in the middle. I take issue with the essence of what's being done... what in law books is referred to as malum in se, or wrong in of itself.
Spider brought-up morality, and this Latin phrase is a reminder that the law and morality are not just two different things. In reality, the law is an attempt to codify morality, but at a lowest common denominator level if you will.
Some of us apparently wish there was a higher standard for what should be acceptable. As a guiding point, a high degree of integrity, respect, and appreciation come to mind. Spider's comments about cheating are central in such thinking actually. Doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow. I'll say it again, doing the right thing is not always just what the law will allow... With her recent passing, Rosa Parks, bless her heart, is just one reminder.
If there are laws in place that say it's illegal to copy someone's work, it is then recognized that it is wrong to do so. Malum in se sees the act itself as wrong, whether appropriate paperwork was completed beforehand or not. The act is inherently wrong. So, if SS would have spent the time and money to legally protect its design (adding more to the cost btw), the very same action would then now be seen by many as bad. Quite strange, I feel...
A me/me metality, their loss my gain approach, looking for loopholes, rationalizing the letter of the law without feeling its spirit or intent is the culprit. Cut and dry black letter law, the law says it's ok, so too bad, that's the way it is, while very easy to understand of course, just is not acceptable for one who generally goes about their life expecting to do what's right, not just what's ok or tolerable.
If I'm a major company like SS who kicks-out quality product, I'm going to think twice about how much money I spend on R&D going-forward. If I reasonably expect plagarized copies to be out a year later, I just might cut some corners and make something of less quality from the get-go. Financially, that could be the prudent thing to do. For those who want the highest quality product, and for competition to continually bring-out the best, this is not the ideal scenario.
Sorry, but I'm not going to the back of the bus, and I think in time, the big picture of this impact will be more evident.
Like Spider, I've said about all that I can say. Maybe others, like some manufactuers, will share, but the I get the impression that might not happen, unfortunately.
I hope nothing I've said was abrasive or offensive. I still want to know about the "geographic area" though. Then maybe I'll chime in again
I am very familiar with the realities of today's market and work in it every day for about 25 manufacturers. Over the years i have represented well over 150 from all over the world.
I would not buy the SS because it is rediculously over priced IMO. SS made a business decision not to protect their "property" and they are getting what they should have expected.....I do not feel sorry for them. What is funny about Wal-Mart is that their mantra when they first got started was "American made" their presence in China is an interesting read. I don't have a problem with consumer goods being ripped....that is the lay of the land....nature of the market...if you will. Headers do not have a huge "barrier to entry" and so they can be pretty easily copied. I try not to think of my Mini as "consmer" product...although it is..... but something more personal. instead of copying the latest "toaster" design it feels to me more like someone going into my house and copying a piece of art work ..... I know this is nuts but I like to think (delusion) my car is "special."
I apologize for the extreme morality..... taking a strong stand to illustrate a point is part of my MO. The comment about "school work" was to try to illustrate my feeling that SS design is "original work." I guess my haste rendered a flawed analogy, but I don't think so. (spirit) Niagara falls is going to flow where it wants to and there is very little that you can do to stop it. the trick is to harness the energy for some benefit. If I may confess here some of my manufacturers "copy" and I sell these products. I get back to "art" vs consumer....... personal vs impersonal...... There is nothing like shelling out big bucks for a leather jacket to give you an "identity" and seeing 100 more of them on the racks and knowing there are tens of thousands of them that will be gobbled up for other "unique" individuals. What is the saying, I am unique, like everyone else."
This arguement has been decided by the international market and those who play the game the best will benefit and those that don't will struggle. No personal attacks meant.
Peace,
Bob
Originally Posted by TonyB
Here is what I responding to:
"I find it interesting how many are up in arms about the OBX header and its legitimacy.
How about pulleys? Who made the first 15%? Are you running an original? or did you buy a ripped off clone?
Or CAI for that matter - several are virtually identical.
I don't hear anyone questioning these other products which unfortunately leads me to believe that this has nothing to do with "ripping off" but more the geographic area involved."
.....
And I still would like to know what geographic area was being referenced...
ASIA does not have the market on copying or cloning other products but that seems okay here. There is no one suggesting that X brand of Pulley should not be purchased because they were not the original. or CAI for that matter. AND Why is that ? Because again this has nothing to do with copies, cloning, capitalism, free market, Patent rights, ect.........
If one's stance is that OBX did a terrible thing and is Bad - that is one's opinion which regardless if I agree or disagree, I must respect for it's one's opinion. However if one's opinion is not consistent but randomly applied then its not an opinion but a bias.
"MAN" always seems to need an external enemy - for it always distracts from his own internal problems.
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 10,340
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From: Woodside, CA
But everyone should remember...
that Supersprint put their design in the public domain. OBX didn't steal, SS GAVE IT AWAY!!!!!!!
So I see a fundimental difference here. If a manufacturer doesn't to what is in their own interest, they blew it.
And I agree that the law and morality don't always line up. But in the case of protection of original content, the US has a pretty fair body of laws designed to protect original creation, and SS, and others, have chosen not to take advantange of that.
I still don't think that Spiders comments about cheating in a homework assignment are on point, because originality is part of the assignment, whereas in the marketplace, protection of original design is optional, or extra credit.
Supersprint could manufacture in lower cost areas, or invest in productivity enhancements, and prevent some of this as well. But they didn't. Strike two in the marketplace.
For our Minis, look at the HAI. The creator didn't protect it. He shared it. And I have one on my car, and the creator didn't get diddly for financial compensation. Was that an immoral act? I don't think so. My blatent copy is fair and good, because it was use of public domain information.
If someone wants to protect their R&D investment, they have to be competent in the marketplace. We shouldn't have to respect their intentions IN SPITE OF the fact that they don't care to act on protection.
I don't think this is wrong on it's face. If SS had done anything to protect their design, I'd aggree 100%. But they didn't. They chose their business model. We don't. They are the ones that created this opportunity, and someone stepped through the crack in the door. Strike three!
Looking around Greddy headers for some models of Hondas, and Acuras are under $400. If Supersprint comes out with more expensive products, keeps their price model the way it is, and chooses not to protect didly. They should expect this to happen again. And it will. And that's GOOD.
Right I said GOOD. Because they should feel the pressure on price. They should feel the pressure to become more efficient. They shouldn't burdon us with a fake moral choice because they don't work to protect their own interest in the market.
In a way, one could argue that they are the ones not acting in a moral way, by placing the burdon on their customers... Twisted, but arguable.
I gotta say, I'm kind of surprised at all this. there is responsobility that the creator has to protect their own interests. It appears that SS has abdicated all responsability in this area, and some of us defend them? somewhat akin to defending the captian of the Titanic. He made serious mistakes, and the ship suffered the consiquences.......
Matt
So I see a fundimental difference here. If a manufacturer doesn't to what is in their own interest, they blew it.
And I agree that the law and morality don't always line up. But in the case of protection of original content, the US has a pretty fair body of laws designed to protect original creation, and SS, and others, have chosen not to take advantange of that.
I still don't think that Spiders comments about cheating in a homework assignment are on point, because originality is part of the assignment, whereas in the marketplace, protection of original design is optional, or extra credit.
Supersprint could manufacture in lower cost areas, or invest in productivity enhancements, and prevent some of this as well. But they didn't. Strike two in the marketplace.
For our Minis, look at the HAI. The creator didn't protect it. He shared it. And I have one on my car, and the creator didn't get diddly for financial compensation. Was that an immoral act? I don't think so. My blatent copy is fair and good, because it was use of public domain information.
If someone wants to protect their R&D investment, they have to be competent in the marketplace. We shouldn't have to respect their intentions IN SPITE OF the fact that they don't care to act on protection.
I don't think this is wrong on it's face. If SS had done anything to protect their design, I'd aggree 100%. But they didn't. They chose their business model. We don't. They are the ones that created this opportunity, and someone stepped through the crack in the door. Strike three!
Looking around Greddy headers for some models of Hondas, and Acuras are under $400. If Supersprint comes out with more expensive products, keeps their price model the way it is, and chooses not to protect didly. They should expect this to happen again. And it will. And that's GOOD.
Right I said GOOD. Because they should feel the pressure on price. They should feel the pressure to become more efficient. They shouldn't burdon us with a fake moral choice because they don't work to protect their own interest in the market.
In a way, one could argue that they are the ones not acting in a moral way, by placing the burdon on their customers... Twisted, but arguable.
I gotta say, I'm kind of surprised at all this. there is responsobility that the creator has to protect their own interests. It appears that SS has abdicated all responsability in this area, and some of us defend them? somewhat akin to defending the captian of the Titanic. He made serious mistakes, and the ship suffered the consiquences.......
Matt
Originally Posted by jlm
"The market belongs to those that are agile and efficient.'
I might add, "...unfortuantely, ethics/morality has nothing to do with it."
Amen
I might add, "...unfortuantely, ethics/morality has nothing to do with it."
Amen
5th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
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lol ofcourse obx is a ripp off from the original.
so is half the stuff on ebay - they're all ripp offs.
some say even m7 are ripp off's of other originals lol !
so bloody what??! are people upset that the obx actually works for half the price of the supersprint? (although it still is missing a high flow cat). whhooppeeee doooooooooooooo sunshine.. no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it ! so build a bridge and get OVER IT !
so is half the stuff on ebay - they're all ripp offs.
some say even m7 are ripp off's of other originals lol !
so bloody what??! are people upset that the obx actually works for half the price of the supersprint? (although it still is missing a high flow cat). whhooppeeee doooooooooooooo sunshine.. no one is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to buy it ! so build a bridge and get OVER IT !
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,652
Likes: 6
From: Lansdale, PA
Originally Posted by Bahamabart
ASIA does not have the market on copying or cloning other products but that seems okay here. There is no one suggesting that X brand of Pulley should not be purchased because they were not the original. or CAI for that matter. AND Why is that ? Because again this has nothing to do with [/B][B]copies, cloning, capitalism, free market, Patent rights, ect.........
I don't see how this issue is racial or racist at all.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
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Supersprint
Group,
Thank you all for the lively discussion. Everybody has put in great ideas and it has been an excellent read. I wanted to try and clear a few things up. Thank you for taking the time and consideration to read this reply. Chris
1 Please do not assume that Supersprint does not take precautions to protect their product and design. I am not at liberty to discuss details.
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
3 When judging the final price of the Supersprint products verses other options please keep in mind that Supersprint starts from the beginning. The basic version of the process is to obtain a vehicle, study the original design and performance of the vehicle, build prototypes from experience, dyno test and test and test some more, go into production, then finally distribute and advertise the product. This requires experience, tooling, man hours and time. This is different(in design and investment) from taking an existing product, making a sub par copy and selling at the lowest possible price.
Beware. This is a copy of a Supersprint header showing poor alignment.
Thank you all for the lively discussion. Everybody has put in great ideas and it has been an excellent read. I wanted to try and clear a few things up. Thank you for taking the time and consideration to read this reply. Chris
1 Please do not assume that Supersprint does not take precautions to protect their product and design. I am not at liberty to discuss details.
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
3 When judging the final price of the Supersprint products verses other options please keep in mind that Supersprint starts from the beginning. The basic version of the process is to obtain a vehicle, study the original design and performance of the vehicle, build prototypes from experience, dyno test and test and test some more, go into production, then finally distribute and advertise the product. This requires experience, tooling, man hours and time. This is different(in design and investment) from taking an existing product, making a sub par copy and selling at the lowest possible price.
Beware. This is a copy of a Supersprint header showing poor alignment.
Originally Posted by andy@ross-tech.com
How did you miss all of the posts on NAM about pulleys and intakes being copied, many in this very thread.
I don't see how this issue is racial or racist at all.
I don't see how this issue is racial or racist at all.
When one is upset about the OBX cloning SS when - We still don't know if that is the case or if there is a deal w/ SS (DO WE?) BUT its just assumed that because (why?) OBX is a "far east" company and thats what "far east" companies do thats a racial bias not an opinion. Everyone that "assumes" they cloned it, is not doing so based on any fact but on the perception of ASIA.
I have no issue if someone does not want to buy an OBX Header because they have issues with companies that take short cuts (i.e. no R&D, copying the ideas of other legally or illegally) but for me to respect that as that persons view/opinion then they better dam well have the original pulley, CAI, ect....... BECAUSE then their opinion is based on a point of view and they are consistent BUT if that person has not been equally diligent selecting his pulley (Atla, RDR, ect....) then I'm sorry to say its a bias and in this case its geographic.
Originally Posted by Chris@Promini
Group,
Thank you all for the lively discussion. Everybody has put in great ideas and it has been an excellent read. I wanted to try and clear a few things up. Thank you for taking the time and consideration to read this reply. Chris
1 Please do not assume that Supersprint does not take precautions to protect their product and design. I am not at liberty to discuss details.
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
3 there is no business relationship between OBX & SS.
3 When judging the final price of the Supersprint products verses other options please keep in mind that Supersprint starts from the beginning. The basic version of the process is to obtain a vehicle, study the original design and performance of the vehicle, build prototypes from experience, dyno test and test and test some more, go into production, then finally distribute and advertise the product. This requires experience, tooling, man hours and time. This is different(in design and investment) from taking an existing product, making a sub par copy and selling at the lowest possible price.
Beware. This is a copy of a Supersprint header showing poor alignment.
Thank you all for the lively discussion. Everybody has put in great ideas and it has been an excellent read. I wanted to try and clear a few things up. Thank you for taking the time and consideration to read this reply. Chris
1 Please do not assume that Supersprint does not take precautions to protect their product and design. I am not at liberty to discuss details.
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
3 there is no business relationship between OBX & SS.
3 When judging the final price of the Supersprint products verses other options please keep in mind that Supersprint starts from the beginning. The basic version of the process is to obtain a vehicle, study the original design and performance of the vehicle, build prototypes from experience, dyno test and test and test some more, go into production, then finally distribute and advertise the product. This requires experience, tooling, man hours and time. This is different(in design and investment) from taking an existing product, making a sub par copy and selling at the lowest possible price.
Beware. This is a copy of a Supersprint header showing poor alignment.
can you confirm on behalf of SS -
1) does SS ever enter into agreements to manufacture for others ?
2) is it SS position that the OBX header is an UNauthorized copy of an SS product?
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
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Answers
Originally Posted by Bahamabart
Chris,
can you confirm on behalf of SS -
1) does SS ever enter into agreements to manufacture for others ?
2) is it SS position that the OBX header is an UNauthorized copy of an SS product?
can you confirm on behalf of SS -
1) does SS ever enter into agreements to manufacture for others ?
2) is it SS position that the OBX header is an UNauthorized copy of an SS product?
These are two very good questions. Chris
1) Yes, Supersprint develops and produces exhaust programs for many high end tuners, racing teams and OE. Some of these high end tuners include Hamann and Carlsson and they are OE for Honda Europe aswell as others.
2) Yes.
6th Gear
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 3,957
Likes: 2
From: a canyon, south Bay Area
Originally Posted by Bahamabart
I posted this and my geographic reference was not that subtle. My point here is that this OBX outrage appears to be more about ASIA (racial bias) - than R&D, copies, cloning, capitalism, free market, Patent rights, ect......... BECAUSE this is the only ITEM that creates outrage.
ASIA does not have the market on copying or cloning other products but that seems okay here. There is no one suggesting that X brand of Pulley should not be purchased because they were not the original. or CAI for that matter. AND Why is that ? Because again this has nothing to do with copies, cloning, capitalism, free market, Patent rights, ect.........
If one's stance is that OBX did a terrible thing and is Bad - that is one's opinion which regardless if I agree or disagree, I must respect for it's one's opinion. However if one's opinion is not consistent but randomly applied then its not an opinion but a bias.
"MAN" always seems to need an external enemy - for it always distracts from his own internal problems.
ASIA does not have the market on copying or cloning other products but that seems okay here. There is no one suggesting that X brand of Pulley should not be purchased because they were not the original. or CAI for that matter. AND Why is that ? Because again this has nothing to do with copies, cloning, capitalism, free market, Patent rights, ect.........
If one's stance is that OBX did a terrible thing and is Bad - that is one's opinion which regardless if I agree or disagree, I must respect for it's one's opinion. However if one's opinion is not consistent but randomly applied then its not an opinion but a bias.
"MAN" always seems to need an external enemy - for it always distracts from his own internal problems.
Myself and Spider were pretty much the only ones in the minority, with me probably spear-heading the effort to voice our opinion. So, I take that expression to be directed at us, and with that, me more.
My earlier response addressing the pulley and CAI portions of your comments actually had a couple paragraphs detailing my feelings about what I thought you were concluding, but after seeing how others replied afterwards (not thinking Asia), I respectfully edited that out as to give you the benefit of the doubt. With this now clear, I'll copy/paste-in what I originally left out...
======
First, let’s address the geographic reference of this diatribe first, as that strikes a nerve. My expression here has made absolutely no derogatory remarks about Asia, or its people. I spent several months of my life in Asia doing research for my thesis; a topic that actually emphasized the importance of negating stereotypes. Also in this research was a comparison that highlighted the virtues of democracy, and free enterprise – for which I have much passion. I have since married a Taiwanese gal, and have been back to Taiwan & Asia several times since.
Even a hint that my displeasure here is simply due to this manufacturing occurring in Asia cannot be more wrong. I, and others who have shared the same sentiments with me, would feel the same whether this was happening here in the US, or anywhere else on the planet.
[My points re the pulley & CAI analogies inserted here.]
In an attempt to justify, comparing the OBX copy job to a pulley or CAI, as shared above, is not the same, and fails to make the defensive point for the OBX. It’s fine to think different, as Matt does. I totally respect that… and agree to disagree. I however take exception to those who, for whatever reason, wish then to paint a picture and conclude through poor reasoning that others must feel a certain way because of their preconceived ideas about a certain part of the world.
=====
Even though I felt quite sure you were referencing Asia, I held-off on this expression just to make sure; doing my best to be sensitive, and to not hurt another in what might have been a miscommunication. I guess I wish that others would do the same sometime before they jump-the-gun with a conclusion...
Originally Posted by Chris@Promini
Group,
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
2 There is no protection offered by China enforcing copyright infringement.
5th Gear
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 928
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From: Raleigh, NC
Originally Posted by Bahamabart
I have no issue if someone does not want to buy an OBX Header because they have issues with companies that take short cuts (i.e. no R&D, copying the ideas of other legally or illegally) but for me to respect that as that persons view/opinion then they better dam well have the original pulley, CAI, ect....... BECAUSE then their opinion is based on a point of view and they are consistent BUT if that person has not been equally diligent selecting his pulley (Atla, RDR, ect....) then I'm sorry to say its a bias and in this case its geographic.
The concept of a pulley seems so basic - like saying you should choose X brand tires because they were the first. The concept of a smaller supercharger pulley, or a larger crank pulley, existed in the marketplace long before the mini was ever designed. Whoever that "first company" was probably doesn't even make a pulley for our car. I *might* give credit to the first designer of the bolt-on style pulley, but then again, that probably already existed in the market too.
I tend to think the same thing with CAI's. On MOST cars, there's really only one route to run an intake arm. From there, it's just filter and arm design. Even if ten designers started blind, they would all surely end up with a very similar design.
Anyway... anyone familiar with patents knows that protecting your product isn't as easy as it seems on the surface. A utility patent tends to be quite hard to get. A design patent, while much easier to get, offers very limited protection - allowing a competitor to make only a small visual change to avoid infringement. Even with a patent, enforcement is another matter entirely. Given the small mini market, the money it would take to defend a patent would be greater than the lost revenues.
In the end, OBX isn't taking any business away from SS anyway... not with the price and quality difference. I wouldn't buy OBX stuff, not because of the moral issues, but rather because I don't patronize companies that sell low-quality goods (read: cheap crap).
[edit] - Even if SS HAD gotten a patent, it would have raised their product price and delayed the time to market. OBX would have copied someone else and the net result would be SS selling fewer pieces and making less money.
At least with a company like Rota (the undisputed knockoff-king) you get a good quality product. And not that it matters, but I've never bought a Rota product either.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
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From: New Brunswick, NJ
Originally Posted by FlynHawaiian
look at those welds. ahhh. eyes closed method? 
I love supersprints stuff I have a nice superspringt exhaust on my x3 I love it. Keep up the good work guys
I love supersprints stuff
I have a nice superspringt exhaust on my x3 I love it. Keep up the good work guys 
. This was a knock-off of a BMW [I believe I read...] SS header. The OBX, on the other hand, like the SS header for the MINI and our stock piece, has one flange connecting all four primaries. The header cannot have the shown huge quality issues- as long as the pipes meet the flange, the OBX will be 'mountable,' while the header shown would not be...This is not necessarily to knock SS [hell, I have half a mind to BUY one of the SS's within this month because of their quality...]. I just want to be clear on this one point: that is not an OBX shown, nor are those the quality 'issues' associated with one. Thanks...
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 2
From: New Jersey
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
that Supersprint put their design in the public domain. OBX didn't steal, SS GAVE IT AWAY!!!!!!!
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
So I see a fundimental difference here. If a manufacturer doesn't to what is in their own interest, they blew it.
Placing the blame on Supersprint is like saying if you dont lock your doors and I come into your house, its your fault?
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
For our Minis, look at the HAI. The creator didn't protect it. He shared it. And I have one on my car, and the creator didn't get diddly for financial compensation. Was that an immoral act? I don't think so. My blatent copy is fair and good, because it was use of public domain information.
I'm flattered that you and others consider the HAI on par with some of the other intakes on the market but it was never intended to be seen as the "quarter price rogue" the way another intake is/could be marketed. I believe that the HAI stands on its own designwise (atleast in the MINI domain) and there is nothing unfair about it.
The price a person pays for quality or percieved quality is entirely up to that person. We see this pretty common with JCW Kit discussions. Vendors offer similar staged kits for considerably less money but none are direct copies. While you may get a similar result, you're not getting a similar product and thats what competition is all about.
I think its unfair to say that JCW or HRE or Supersprint deserve it because of the high price of admission. It amazes me the number of Livestrong bracelet knockoffs I see in the stores today. The real deal cost a dollar and benefited charity, yet there are still an obscene ammount of "pretenders"!
Welcome to the new economy, folks. almost anyone can manufacture almost anything at a fairly high quality. The days of making money in manufacturing are almost over. Nobody says "when I grow up I'm going open a factory and make 1/4-20 bolts." 1/4-20 bolts are a commodity. Headers are NOT... atleast they shouldnt be. The new economy is completely driven by ideas and marketing. That said, what does this have to do with Performance Mods?
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,719
Likes: 1
From: New Brunswick, NJ
Another thing which has not been mentioned, and which is extremely important from a patent law perspective is a tangible damage due to an infringement. It is not clear to me that SS, since it's header is so overpriced, could have ever hoped to make any money off of the consumers who bought the OBX. How many do you really suppose there are, anyway? 20? 30??? Do you suppose that those who bought it would save up for an SS in its absence? No, they would buy the cheaper Pilo unit or something similar.
This argument above may all be essentially moot. These headers hit two separate markets. Perhaps this is why SS has not pursued any action or even made any statement online..... Anyways, SS is Italian and it's headers are sold worldwide to an enthusiast segment. I wouldn't be surprised if more SS's have been sold than OBX's, in Italy and many other markets, even if more OBX's have been bought here.
Again, there is more to this argument than has been fleshed out. I am seriously considering the SS because of quality and quality alone, and this reason will likely keep me from the OBX. Many many people, perhaps the majority in the serious MINI tuning market globally, will choose the SS. Let's not make a problem where there is none.
I hope this makes sense to someone besides me....heh...
This argument above may all be essentially moot. These headers hit two separate markets. Perhaps this is why SS has not pursued any action or even made any statement online....
. Anyways, SS is Italian and it's headers are sold worldwide to an enthusiast segment. I wouldn't be surprised if more SS's have been sold than OBX's, in Italy and many other markets, even if more OBX's have been bought here.Again, there is more to this argument than has been fleshed out. I am seriously considering the SS because of quality and quality alone, and this reason will likely keep me from the OBX. Many many people, perhaps the majority in the serious MINI tuning market globally, will choose the SS. Let's not make a problem where there is none.
I hope this makes sense to someone besides me....heh...
4th Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 392
Likes: 1
From: San Antonio
Originally Posted by Dr Obnxs
So, if you get the least expensive exhaust system, you get an a price point of over $1700, with no cat or resonator. If you go with the most expensive, you get just shy of $3k!
And remember, this is 50% off MSRP.
And remember, this is 50% off MSRP.
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
clarification
Originally Posted by ingsoc
NOTE: This is a little bit of either 'creative' or 'convenience' marketing...the header shown is not a MINI header, not the OBX, hell it would not even fit on a MINI. . This was a knock-off of a BMW [I believe I read...] SS header. The OBX, on the other hand, like the SS header for the MINI and our stock piece, has one flange connecting all four primaries. The header cannot have the shown huge quality issues- as long as the pipes meet the flange, the OBX will be 'mountable,' while the header shown would not be...
This is not necessarily to knock SS [hell, I have half a mind to BUY one of the SS's within this month because of their quality...]. I just want to be clear on this one point: that is not an OBX shown, nor are those the quality 'issues' associated with one. Thanks...
. This was a knock-off of a BMW [I believe I read...] SS header. The OBX, on the other hand, like the SS header for the MINI and our stock piece, has one flange connecting all four primaries. The header cannot have the shown huge quality issues- as long as the pipes meet the flange, the OBX will be 'mountable,' while the header shown would not be...This is not necessarily to knock SS [hell, I have half a mind to BUY one of the SS's within this month because of their quality...]. I just want to be clear on this one point: that is not an OBX shown, nor are those the quality 'issues' associated with one. Thanks...
Thank you for pointing this out. I made this clear in the original thread but it needs to be made clear here aswell. The image shown is simply an example of a poorly executed copy of a Supersprint header. For more information please see the link as below. Chris
http://www.supersprintna.com/technic...ca_headers.php
Former Vendor
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
pricing
Originally Posted by Stevie B
SuperSprint could lower the cost to under $1,000, up production, and kill the competition.
http://www.supersprintna.com/product...arch_model/100