MItch,

WOW can you get a 245 on a 7.5x17" rim and will it clear the stupid plastic fender trim? I like the width factor I am just not sure it will fit. Do you have any photos?

Thanks, DJD

 

You need to re-read my post. It's a 15-inch rim, not 17-inch.

This tire could have a dramatic effect on our sport. It will fit CSP Miata's, many DSP FWD cars (it's what Craig is planning to run on his DSP Mini this season) and especially SM and SM2 cars. I'm hoping that this will be the tires to help the SM2 Miatas finally beat the Vette's and RX-7's.

It's supposedly a done deal with Hoosier, but I don't know when they are going to release them.

Check out Craig's post in the Street Prepared threads for more info. I think he's planning to run a 15 x 10!!

 

Alot depends on your alignment and suspension upgrades and even more depends on your driving style.

When I purchased the A6 tires from Alex@tirerack he mentioned that their experience is that the A6 will last longer in general than Kumho V710s but I think he means at peak levels. Many of us use our competition tires far past optimal tire life since they are expensive.

Currently my V710s are more than one year old and have been through about
10-11 autocross events and about 65 runs. While that doesn't seem that much I think they ARE past their prime and I think their age is the biggest factor. The tires themselves look OK but I feel the rubber is harder not so supple and soft. UV light and exposure hardens rubber.

I think that the A6 and the V710s will perform similarly with slight edge going to the A6 and I think wear will be a little longer and more consistent with the A6. Another MINI driver in my region has the A6 on a stock MCS and I barely beat him only about 1 second faster on a 30 second course. It's not enough to keep up with him on PAX overall. He has lighter rims as well.

 

[quote=mitchman;1373853]You need to re-read my post. It's a 15-inch rim, not 17-inch.

Mitch,

Thanks for the correction, sorry. I am stuck going with the 205/40/17 R6 or Toyo Ra1's for Time trials events.

DJD

 

Thanks, this really helps. My RA-1s will be all worn out halfway through this season and I am looking to switch to a real autox tire. Been having trouble deciding between the V710 and the A6... especially after seeing how the A6 dominated the nationals in 2006. I am hoping that my 2.3 degrees of camber up front (the rest of the car is stock) and the lack of power on the MC will help in making the A6s last longer.

 

Okay, I had the size wrong in my previous post (I was too lazy to look and just guessed the size from memory)

So nobody's going to try the new 275/35/15 for SM? That's really surprising. Autocross is all about grip.....especially in SM. FWD vs AWD = you guys need more grip!

 

Mitch...! What the heck* The tire's got to look like a black rubber band

PS. I lost my grip on reality a long time ago that's why I race a Mini Cooper...DJD

BTW, are you SM guys headed to any events this month? This post has been quiet!

 

Missed the first event of the year due to illness. Next one is on the 25th, which I should be relatively ready for.

As for the 275 Hoosiers, they sound great but funds aren't realistically there for yet another set of wheels to go with them. I've got 4 already, but the widest 15s are only 7".

If I was serious about competing nationally, it would be a no-brainer to try and cram the 275s under there somehow. But I'm not, for 2 main reasons.

1. I don't have enough vacation days to deal with the travel on top of covering days that our young kids are out of school.

2. I was serious, I wouldn't be in SM in a MINI. No prayer, nationally.

In Indiana, I do well as it is. Overall, I'm normally the fastest car that remotely resembles a legal street car and ending up with FTD or at least Top 5 isn't unusual. But SM doesn't have anyone that is REALLY serious about it and can afford to build a full-blown SM car around here.

Even though I'm just into this for the fun and the legal rush, I still may give the wider tires and wheels a try next year. I've got more pressing fish to fry car-wise this season. I need to get the spring situation finished up (hopefully in the next week or two), and I need a new driver's seat (mine has been beaten into submission and is tearing) and a new exhaust system (Magnaflow is cracked and the rattle is getting seriously annoying as a daily driver).

Scott
90SM

 

Hey Scott,

Good Luck on the 25th. Sorry you got sick. I am surprised you guys can cram that wide a tire on a 15" rim and not have to beat the fenders into submission. I got a BBK so I have to use 17's. Trying the Toyo Ra1's this year...

I understand the lack of competition. I came in second with two cars in SM class this February @ VIR. (woopie )

Cheers,
DJDport66

 

Thanks djd.

Tire OD and wheel offset are the big things. Getting a 225/45-15 on is a piece of cake, even with a lowered car. 225/50-15s rubbed a tiny bit until they wore down about half way. They'ed work fine on with a stock ride height.

Our SM classes have ranged from 1 car to 18. I think I've been beaten about 5 times in 3 years in this class in two regions and a couple divisionals, so I just compare my time to the other faster cars at our events. There are some real DM and EM cars with experienced drivers that show up pretty frequently, plus CM and FM less often. There's also a CSP car that's pretty fast (competes nationally). I've debated just running EM to open SM up for some new drivers. I sort of beat up on STX locally for the first two years in the MCS, but it is recovering now. It was one of our most popular classes when I first got the MINI in 2002.

It's interesting how class participation ebs and flows. We get a lot of new drivers in STS, STX and SM. When those classes also have a couple of experienced drivers with decently set up cars, the result is the new guys getting beat by 8-10 seconds event after event. Too many seemed to get discouraged and give up (I was too stubborn to do it when I first started) so many of those faster drivers have moved on to tougher classes for "the good of the program".

Anyway, comparing times with friends in different classes is a nice way to ensure you always have some competition to make you continue to develop as a driver and car preparer.

Of course if I lived in city with big turnouts like SF or Denver, none of this would be a concern. Oh well.

Scott
90SM

 

Just wanted to say thanks for making starting this forum. yesterday I raced in my first SM class race, and ended up beating two WRX STi's and two Evo MR's placing me in second for the day. Curently though I am running a very basic setup. 15% reduc. pulley, cold air intake, plugs wires cat-back exhaust, and alta air diverter. I'm running a 205-45-17 street tire (BFG force) but I know I would be more competitve with R compound tires. What tire and size do you think would be best for me, my wheels are 17x7.5.
thanks for your help
Douglas Beachem

 

Good work. You're on your way. Not sure the STi guys like facing you. I know in my region we have many STi and now more EVO MRs that cannot keep up with SM class MINIs. I think those powerful cars are not so easy to drive the tight technical autocross courses without having more driving skill.

You'll need three things-
A. More experience and more driving skill- this will come in time. You'll need to do your homework and be a good student. Study driving theory and buy some autocross books (by Richard H. Turner or by Henry A. Watts). Walk the course many many times before driving it. Study study study and talk to others more experienced.

B. Look at your suspension and evaluate where you can more some adjustments. For SM class the following are very very very common:
Coilovers (adjustable) or Koni shocks and lowering springs (ride height not adjustable), adjustable rear swaybar (maybe the front bar), adjustable front camber plates or at least fixed camber plates for more front negative camber, lower adjustable rear control arms. Aggressive autocross alignment.

C. Look at your wheel and tire combo. Most of us run as wide rims and tires as is possible for more rubber to the ground but you can't make good use of your tires without enough negative front camber (your driving wheels). Right now you have -0.5 degrees front camber and you will need more like -2.0 or more. Street tires will cost you about 2-3 seconds per run at least and maybe more once you have enough skill to drive at the limit. There isn't a rush to get the very best tires but R compounds are good and not for street use. My suggestion would be keep the 17x7.5 (heavy) rims and BFG tires for street use or rainy autocross days and think about alternative light wheels and R compounds for autocross or track days.

Any 15x7 light rim with 205/50-15 or 225/45-15 tires. Kumho Victoracers are durable but not as fast as Kumho V710s. The fastest tires will not last at peak performance. One season or less is the rule unless you don't care if the rubber is getting less sticky and you want to just have fun. Buying tires all the time gets expensive. 15x8 rims by 949racing.com are possible.

Any 16x7 light rim with 205/40-16 or 215/40-16 tire. Not that many good R compounds, just search tirerack.com. 16x6.5 Rota Slipstreams are possible about 13.3 pounds each and not too expensive $150+ each.

Which year MCS do you have? If you have 2005 or later you have good gearing which helps alot.

 

its an 04 mini I'm really not looking for the win, I just want to have a lot of fun annoying the all wheel drive boys on a budget. I have a second set of wheels (also 17-7.5) that I am planning on putting tires on strictly for autocross.

 

OK, 04 MCS has no built in rear lower control arm adjustment like 05 does.

Consider an adjustable rear sway bar, 19 or 22mm and set to softest. This will aid in reducing understeer and help with cornering control.

Next lowering springs and stock shocks is possible but you will get a harsher daily ride, not sure if that is OK with you. H-sport springs or M7 springs. Leave the front swaybar alone.

Front camber plates are costly about $400-500 plus installation and can be done for less extra cost if you decide to add shocks or lowering springs.

Coilovers are much more expensive but ride height is adjustable and shocks are usually also adjustable depending on which coilover you choose. Set dampening or rebound for soft for daily use and firm for competition.

All of these can be considered for the long run but you can do them in stages or not at all. Rear swaybar makes sense at this point for about $200 and you can do the labor- or ask a friend. About 90 to 120 minutes.

If you have a spare 17x7.5 rim set, then you can go with tires for autocross use only-
Consider 205/40-17
Kumho Ecsta MX $88 each Extreme Performance Summer tires
220 Treadwear AA traction 19 pounds fits rims 7-8" wide 23.5" Outer tire diameter Y speed rated Load rated 1102 pounds
Also in 215/40-17 $110 20 pounds, 23.9" outer tire diameter Load rated 1074. Both can be used for street or autocross.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=84276
For comments by MX owners

Or in 205/40-17 in Max Performance summer tires
Bridgestone Potenza S-03 for $102 closeout
220 treadwear AA traction W speed rated 21 pounds 992 load rated
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3 for $125
280 treadwear AA traction W speed rated 22 pounds 1021 load rated
215/40-17 is $152 each!

Some autocross drivers really like
Falken Azenis Rt-615 about $97 each in 205/40-17
200 treadwear W speed rated 19.4 pounds
In 215/40-17 it's about $102 each 20.3 pounds
or
Hankook Ventus Rs2 Z212 $94 each
200 tread Y speed rated 20.5 pounds
Both Z212 and Rt615 can be run on the street no problem. Both are not at tirerack.com, try edgeracing.com. Otherwise for tirerack tires contact Alex@tirerack.com for more info.

Note that the 205/40-17 tires have low load ratings and are meant for autocross only with one or two persons and not for street use.

 

thanks all of that should help me a lot. Hopefully we all can stick it to the subies and evo this year.

 

Hey guys... just joining in the SM lovefest today.

I'm in Norfolk, Virginia... and what's awesome here is there is literally 3 separate venues for Auto-X at any given time... and they rarely overlap! The main venue I'll be running at is on the local Navy Amphibious base, called ACU-4. It's the actual ramp launchpad for the LCAC hovercrafts... a really sweet location to be able to race at. Ocean breezes, Dunes to sit on for spectators, and MWR cooking for us at lunch!

The only other series I plan on running this year is actually a NASA sponsored event at Langley Speedway... so it's an autocross event that incorporates hitting 77 on the back stretch of the track! Fun stuff. You can actually get about 17 runs in on a given day up there... lots of seat time!

April 1st I'll be joining up with the Tidewater Sports Car Club (TSCC) so that I can get numbers for the full season. They kick off the summer series on April 15th, and have an Autocross monthly after that thru December. There are typically about 5-6 entries in SM at any given event. The consistent leader is a fella named Jeff Rooney, driving a late model supercharged prelude. He's really good... I'm hoping to learn more from him this year. A good friend of mine, Obehave is classed right next to me, so we talk a lot about what's what.

He recently mounted up the 949racing 15 x 8's with Falken 615s (I think that's the right tire... I could be wrong.) I rode with him at Langley...it was really an impressive set-up. Closest I've felt to being in the car with Randy Webb...he really was able to push it hard.

On my own car this year, I'm set up with Alta intake, 15% and +2% pulleys, Invidia Exhaust, HKS 25mm swaybar (Middle setting), Shoe's engine damper, and an M7 Extreme scoop. I just purchased some new wheels finally... I picked the 17x7 Palo Uber 14.3 lb jobs. For a wheel, I really would have loved to have gone with a more sporting tire, but as a daily driver, I decided to try these General Tire Exclaim UHP's in 225/45/17. Definitely a street tire! So far it's been amazing in the corners around town, and especially so in the wet. So yeah, hoping for a lot of rainy autocross events this year. I know, some actual track wheels would be ideal. Do you guys know if driving the 3 miles to the event would put too much wear on R-compound tires? I just don't think I have it in me to get there early enough to swap tires immediately prior to the event itself. I might consider going that way eventually, if I can handle it the day beforehand.

Before the season starts, I should have installed new TSW Rotors, Porterfield R4-S pads, SS lines and Brass Caliper bushings installed, along with the TSW endlinks. Hopefully before too long, I can get my hands on some good camber plates... I know I'll need em if I'm to have any hope.

So besides the camber plates, any suggestions on suspension set up I should really consider this year? As much as I'd love to talk coil-overs, that's just not in the budget. M7 USS? Which setting on my HKS bar? New control arms? Suspension is such a black art... and I'm no wizard.

 

No matter what car and tires you use you will need to apply a generous dose of driving skill.

In my region we have a "few" drivers that can drive almost any car once without practice much faster (1-2 seconds or more) than the owners can drive them even after years of experience.

The rule is skill counts more than the car. So while you want to give yourself every little advantage such as the "right tires", your skill level is more of a determining factor than any other mod you can do for your car.

If you have a new driver or a spouse or friend that isn't into performance driving and you ask them to drive autocross you can see how competent street driving is a far cry from all out autocrossing. Hopefully the skills you learn and practice in autocross will allow you to be in control of your MINI at all times. Accidents can happen when we overdrive or loose control then the laws of physics take over and things happen. While damage to property is bad it's injury to people that has the highest cost- something to be careful to avoid.

If you do change tires, let us know how you like them and what you think.

 

Good to hear from you. Lots of possible autocrossing sites is great- consider yourself blessed.

77mph on the backstretch is "beyond" autocross. Rules state up to highway speeds or about 65 would be best. This means for the best modified car about 65 is the limit. Most cars will do less. If you can do about 60 then that is pretty much OK. If the average car can get up to 70 then the course designers need to be careful.

In my area we design courses that often allow drivers a top speed of about 50 if that high. Fairly tight with only a few short areas to go top speed. Course length only 0.4 miles.

One thing about SM class. Street tires are going to be a limiting factor for any MINI and suspension mods and tuning are key.

While the General Exclaim UHP are great for general street use and daily driving they really are not going to like being autocrossed. Dedicated autocross wheels and tires would be one thing that would make a vast improvement. It doesn't have to be expensive.

If your brakes allow, a cheap set of used or new 15x7 (Kosei K1TS or similar) with 205/50-15 tires of almost any R compound would work and is quite legal. To make the most use of any tire you'll need more front negative camber so camber plates that allow for about -2 degrees up front is good. Right now do you know your alignment settings? Toe front and back and rear camber? Front camber for you right now is likely -0.5 degrees. Unless you did your alignment in the last 6 months it's likely you'll need to redo it before the season starts. If you buy wheels for autocross you can fit all four in the back of your MINI with a racing jack and tools.

Rear swaybar should be set to softest setting most likely. Endlinks are needed only if you do heavy track or if you have coilovers and can adjust ride height and want to do corner balancing. How many miles do you have on your MCS? The stock shocks or springs might be worn a bit.

I don't see lowering springs in your list of mods. H-sport springs might be useful but can wear out your stock shocks in less than a year- esp with your heavy autocross schedule. Koni yellow shocks and H-sport springs with lower rear adjustable control arms and adjustable or fixed front camber plates would be ideal. Although you can add them in bits and pieces you would pay less for labor if shocks springs and camber plates are done at one time.

The trouble with any 17x7 rim is not the rim itself but the tire selection for autocross. Probably 205/40-17 and 215/40-17 are the first sizes to look for.
215/45-17 is larger than stock sized so not so good for gearing and you have the older MCS with tall gears. That's why most of us in SM use 15" rims for lightness and 22.9" tall tires (225/45-15 or 205/50-15). Even 225/50-15 is too tall for me.

The 949racing.com 6UL 15x8 rims are good. Does Obehave need rear wheel spacers to get it to fit the rear trailing arm? I have 3mm spacers to get the clearance I need in the rear, fronts are OK. The tire to mount on those rims for best effect would be 225/45-15 R compounds- but the wear would be fairly fast. Falken ST-615s will last a little longer so that is a plus but they won't be as sticky. Everything is a trade off. You can drive the 615s on the street as well and not have to change wheels.

 

Why is that? Hoosier is introducing a 225/40R17, which is about perfect. 23.9" OD, and appropriate width for the wheels and the car.

I was even thinking about using them in Solo 2.

 

Currently running in SM.. so far this year due to pretty much lack of other SM drivers. I'm the only one in the class not running R' compound (using Hankook RS2), But so far i have 2- First place runs. I'm working on Shifting the wieght forward and cross wieghts for better launches. Wish i had the scales to check exactly what I have but the Homemade Tweak boards are doing good so far. With the last set of runs. im only about 3 sec off of FTD on a 50sec course. Which is something i can live with

 

Minihune, thanks for the well thought out response. Much appreciated. I agree, hitting the huge speeds on that course was not the norm for any autocross...they tossed it in that way for grins I think... it's on a 1/4 mile speedway, so what the heck right? The normal place I will be going will on average have 50-65 second runs depending on layout. It typically tends to favor the high horsepower monsters. In the end, it's always been very clear that I really just need more practice and driver improvement. That was most apparent when one of our best drivers went out in his stock cooper and spanked our little SM mini's by 7 seconds on a 50 second course. Good times!

I just may have to go for some actual race tires... I really don't want to put a hurt on my street tires more than neccesary. I'm definitely aware of my limitations on the normal tires. As far as your question about my suspension setup... I'm honestly clueless where my alignment is right now. I have just under 30k on the Mini now, so I'm not sure about how worn everything is really. The ride on my Mini has always felt quite stiff if that tells you a thing? Anyhow... I'm surprised to hear that I should put my bar on the softest setting from you... I guess unlike some things, stiffer is not better eh? Is it just a point of neutralizing the handling? Will adding the M7 USS balance things back out by adding bracing on the front end?

 

M7 USS may or may not be helpful. Depends on how much you stress your MINI during runs. I would think that if you drive at the limit with high speed turns then it might help but my opinion is without R compound tires and aggressive suspension mods and alignment with more negative neg camber you will not be driving at the limit.

The reason why increased stiffness in the rear swaybar may be limited in benefit is that it is dependent on other suspension mods, your tires and your driving skill. If you have three adjustment holes for the rear bar choose the softest setting that will work for you. If you still get quite a bit of understeer then move to the middle setting but if handling feels neutral then it's fine. Again for every driver the correct setting will vary.

In the end the goal is for neutral steering. Excessive stiffness in the rear swaybar might increase chance for oversteer at times.

If you have not done alignment then it is time for it. You cannot easily adjust camber front or rear and hopefully it is not too far off right to left.
Typically we see front camber -0.5 but range is -0.1 to -0.7 and rear camber is -1 to -2 with average about -1.2 degrees. Your settings might have changed with wear from road use. Alignment once yearly is smart. Watch your tire wear for clues to misalignment.

Have an alignment done and set toe.
Front toe for stock setting is toe in but for autocross will be 1/16" toe out.
Rear toe can be 1/16" toe in. The Toe in for the rear is for stability and the toe out in front for enhanced "turn in" and improved steering input. The downside to toe out is that your tires can wear faster since both front tires are pointing slightly outward not exactly straight. Another option is to set front and rear to zero toe- all tires facing straight ahead. Every setting has compromises.

I run alignment-
Front camber -2.3 degrees Front toe 1/16" toe out
Rear Camber -1.6 degrees Rear toe zero
Next alignment I will likely change to less rear camber and 1/16" toe in
More rear neg camber increases understeer.

 

2007 Season Results

March 25th - 1st SM, FTD, 4th on PAX (615 Azenis)
April 1st - 1st SM, FTD, 6th on PAX (Azenis) (gotta get another set of stickies for this season soon)
April 15th - 1st SM, FTD, 5th on PAX (Azenis)
April 22nd - 2nd SM (BOOO!), 6th overall, 21st on PAX (Azenis) - guy who beat me was a good driver on brand new Hoosiers, really gotta order some tires.
May 20th - 2nd SM (again!@%*), 9th overall, 24th on PAX (Avon Tech Ra)
May 28th - 1st SM, FTD, 3rd on PAX (Azenis)
June 24th - 1st SM, FTD, 1st on PAX (Azenis) - Got the suspension working right now!
July 15th - 2nd SM, 14th overall, 23rd on PAX (Avon Tech Ra) I'm starting to really dislike this site. I'm not set up for the course style they keep using.
July 22nd - 1st SM, FTD, 4th on PAX (Azenis)
July 28th - 1st STS, 5th on PAX (stock 2.5RS with STi springs, swaybars and Hankooks at Subaru Challenge - first time driving the car - beat the owner)
August 5th - 3rd STS, 17th on PAX (2002 Hyundai Elantra with H&R springs and Sumitomo tires! First time driving the car - beat the owner)
August 26th - 1st SM at Australian Pursuit - got beat by two EM cars (barely) and a BM. (Avon Tech Ra)
September 2nd - 1st SM, FTD, 4th on PAX (Avon Tech Ra)
September 3rd - 1st SM, FTD, 7th on PAX (Avon Tech Ra)
September 16th - 2nd SM, 13th overall, 25th on PAX (Avon Tech Ra) - lost my brakes, down to .62 peak braking G by 3rd run
September 30th - 1st SM, 2nd overall, 7th on PAX (2006 Subie STi STU car running in SM) - would have been 1st PAX by almost a second if I had run STU
October 21st - 2nd SM, 4th overall, 8th on PAX (Avon Tech Ra) - bad cone day - it was cold in the morning and I should have run the Azenis - no heat in the rear tires so no grip with the Avons
October 28th - No posted results (worker invitational fun event) - drove my car, a new Legacy GT turbo, a CS Solstice, and a SM Impreza with a turbo
November 4th - 1st BS in a 3.0 Z3 (all seasons), 5th overall, 8th on PAX.

I'll continue to update this same post throughout the season so the good or bad news will all be in one place.

Scott
90SM

 

Nice job Scott! If you don't mind sharing, what are the rates of your 2.5" springs? I have H&R's (350 in-lbs, linear) that I'm looking to install on the front of my PSS9's, so I'm curious to know what you've got; especially since you seem to be doing quite well! Thanks much.

 

TonyB,

If your 350lb/in springs are 6" long, get them on the car right away.

That's what I ended up with. I tried 7" long, 350lb/in Hypercoils first, but even with the spring perch bottomed out it put the ride height at pretty much stock. The 6" spring went on, the perch was raised 1/2", and it's a great compromise auto-x /daily driver. Rear springs are still stock Bilstein. Don't forget to leave the blue plastic disc between the springs and perch when you install them. It lets the springs rotate more easily and will keep them from being noisy during tight parking lot manuevers.

With the perch about 1/2" from the bottom of the threads, the spring stays in contact with the tophat when you jack the car up to change wheels. It probably doesn't with the car on a lift, but the front swaybar keeps the wheel a little higher in the air when you only lift one side of the car. Current ride height lets me crawl over the speedbump at work without dragging, which was part of the intent of raising it a bit from the last couple of years.

Getting rid of the progressive spring up front is a very good thing, at least in my opinion. The unexpected bonus is that the car actually rides better now. Over sharp bumps you can tell it is a relatively stiff linear rate spring, but over general road undulations and misc. crap that passes for streets in Indiana the ride isn't as choppy as it was with the stock Bilstein springs. I never could find a damper setting that evened out both ends of the car for ride control.

My wife even commented that it was more pleasant to ride in, so it wasn't my imagination. She's definitely NOT a fan of most of the things I've done to the car when she has to drive it. No sense of adventure, I suppose.

The car felt much better at the event last weekend, which was pretty transient intensive with only two sweepers. Times were good compared to the usual top handful of cars, despite being on street tires, so I'd say the springs were definitely working better since I typically used R compounds of some sort last year and will this year too at other sites.

I'm set up with a little more camber than you, and less toe (close to zero at each end), but different courses / driving styles / setups mean there is no single universal best answer.

Scott
90SM