Hello!

I love that this discussion started, not only for all of the experienced drivers, but also for those of us who are beginnnig and looking to learn. So, for all of you who may have tracked both cars, here is my question:

Cars - Identically prepped 05 MCS and an e30 M3. Level of prep? You be the judge.
Track - Let's say Lime Rock
Conditions - Dry
Driver - same guy or girl, back to back

Ok, which one posts the best lap times?

mb

 

I say the E30 M3 if its setup for the track and they are both runing on 17"s with r compound.

I have driven Lime rock mucho times in many differnt cars and the MINI does handle that track well, but a track preped E30 M3 handles really great.

 

Well, I own both. 90 M3 and an 05 MCS
My track car is the M3 and in its current level of prep it should run a 1:03 easy, maybe a mid 1:02 at Limerock. The JS track record is a 1:02.1. I have RRT JS suspension, 225 Toyos on 15" wheels. Hoosiers should get the last bit for me, its only a track car though so no Hoo$iers for me.

In SSC the track record is somewhere in the 1:05s. I would think that the right damper/spring combo would get the car in the high 1:03s but there hasn't been much development in a good racing spring for the Mini that is a stock type spring, that I've seen. I could be wrong.

A good DM M3 is in the :57s, there are a few around here.

I've never driven my MCS on track, and won't (sorry folks), its a fun car but as you know its a slippery slope and I will have one completely stock car to cruise around and have fun in.

 

My first encounter with the E-30M3's was my 1st BMWCCA club race at the Motorsports Ranch near Dallas. My Mini was set up as a J-Prepared car, still with a/c, radio, passenger race seat & rear seat removed. Having never been to that track, I was pleased to qualify 3rd in class first time out and finished 3rd also in 1st race. There were several E-30 M3's, most in JP, two or so in JS, The Mini was faster than all except Bob Mainini's (Local guy), During the 2nd race, I was ahead of all of them losing to Andy Price's E-36 car.
By mach of '05, we went to TWS for my 2nd CCA race, this time the passenger seat, a/c and additional was removed. I placed on the pole for class & 8th out of 19 cars on grid. This time clearly faster than all the e-30 M3's. So much that the officials deemed the car illegal for having the JCW pulley therefore I am now in D-modified.
After returning from our recent race at Roebling Road, the only e-30 M3 that could beat us was powered by a Euro-spec 6cyl. de-stroked to slip in under the 2980cc rule. We have more ideas to work on throughout the winter and feel we can be faster next season.
Look For Jason and I at the next BMWCCA race.
Regards,
Paulo

 

Not having ever driven an e-30 M3 I can't really comment. I believe that there are not to many here that can.
What I do know is that I have eaten up a lot of these cars in HPDEs. Then there were those two out at the Glen, just about stock that just blew me away as they were driven by superior drivers, or at least superior to those who drove the cars that I've past.
I might guess that at stock, or close to it, these cars are about equal if not a bit of an advantage to the Mini. But each prepared to there max in a Modified class I would have to go with the M3.
Also it would be important to discus which track they would be running. Maybe at these tighter tracks like LRP, NHIS, and the one that Paulo has his video on, the Mini would be quite capable. But put these two on the Glen and the Mini will struggle.
IMHO of course

 

I will wait for the results once ONASLED runs against them ....

He is capable of beating them

 

If we are talking about stock cars, I'd say they are a pretty even match. I ran a 1989 E30 M3 for a few years at HPDE's with the BMWCCA. It was completely stock except for race brake pads. I traded that in this year for a 2005 MCS. I've run that about 6 days on track so far. The MCS is completely stock, including the brakes. The MCS is definitely able to hang with my old E30 M3 friends at a tight track like NHIS. The MCS is faster is some places, like through turn 3 and up the hill, and exiting the bowl through turn 9. The E30 M3 was faster in other spots, like in the bowl and through turns 11-12. At VIR during BMWCCA OKtoberfest, a more open track, the stock MCS's and stock E30 M3's still seemed to hang pretty close together. Onasled is much faster than me; he definitely spanks the stock E30 M3's at NHIS. But I'd bet a J-prepped E30 M3 would give him a good run for his money...

 

Thanks for all of the thoughts, guys; this is an interesting discussion.

mb

 

I've had the pleasure of owning a e30 M3 myself for a couple of years (always regret selling it ). It was the first car that entered me into the world of tracking with a BMWCCA school. I believe that a pre-'05 MCS would have a bit of a challenge keeping up with a stock M3. A post '05, however, with LSD, better gearing, and a bit more umph makes them pretty close to even. IMO the LSD makes a huge difference, especially on the tight tracks. What the MCS has in agility over the M3 is lost when it comes to powering out of the corners. There is still no substitute for Rear Wheel Drive but with LSD it really changes the dynamic of the car and probably evens them out. I always struggled in my '02 to get the power down but with the '05 this is no longer an issue, it's just smooth. One thing I find on the '05 that due to the change in the struts the car has a spongey feel (I immediately switched to H-Sports), it had lost that track attack feel that the old car had, the engineers who put the MCS out in '02 must have been real gearheads for doing this, that car was STIFF (proabably why it rattled to pieces). The M3 is an amazing machine with a rich race history, but now it's time for the MINI to take over LOL

I never got fully comfortable in the M3, maybe it was lack of experience or maybe that it was the only rear wheel drive car that i'd ever owned, so I probably didn't fully understand the dynamics of it. The MINI was instant confidence from day 1. I found the car a lot easier to drive and now it'll take a lot of well driven porsches and BMWs to try to keep up. It would be interesting to see how i'd handle a rear wheel driver now.

I think that as the new MINIs come out and the pre-owned become more affordable, you are going to see a lot of MCSs terrorizing J-Stock. I for one can't wait to get my hands on a bone-stock '05 w/LSD in a few years.

On another note, my daily driver at the time while I owned the M3 was an Acura Integra Type R. This thing was razor sharp in the handling department, screamed it's lungs to 8200RPMs, and had the most amazing shift box that I've ever sampled. It was a pure track car from the dealer (hand built engine, lightweight glass, LSD, etc) and could beat up on the big boys no problem. Both Type R and M3 even had around the same number of cars produced (4800).

cheers

Amit