R56 Disadvantages of upgraded rear sway bar (19-22mm)??
Alliance Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 661
Likes: 24
From: Port Orchard, WA.
Careful with the FSD's...they cannot be put with lowered springs. But with the stock springs they are great. Great improvement in ride and no loss of handling on the street. They almost seem soft until you go into a corner or make a quick turn and the car just sticks...I loved them on the street but I didn't like them for the track or autox; it was almost like they could not keep up when the car was pushed to 98%.
IMHO - camber plates and RSB are the best 2 handling mods for a Mini.
However, disadvantages of a larger bar - on the street I would not go with anything larger than 19mm RSB on an otherwise stock suspension; maybe 20 mm on the sport suspension (that has a larger front bar). Larger can give too much oversteer and an inexperienced driver may find the back end coming around if they lift in the middle of a sweeper (entrance ramp or otherwise).
IMHO - camber plates and RSB are the best 2 handling mods for a Mini.
However, disadvantages of a larger bar - on the street I would not go with anything larger than 19mm RSB on an otherwise stock suspension; maybe 20 mm on the sport suspension (that has a larger front bar). Larger can give too much oversteer and an inexperienced driver may find the back end coming around if they lift in the middle of a sweeper (entrance ramp or otherwise).
Since I do not Track the car or AutoX it the FSD's are probably a good choice, but which camber plates would you use? I have noticed that there are a wide variety of plates on the market.
The other thing I have noticed is that a negative 1.5 degree of camber is possibly desirable, to match the rear camber. What say you??
Stephen
Eddie!
Since I do not Track the car or AutoX it the FSD's are probably a good choice, but which camber plates would you use? I have noticed that there are a wide variety of plates on the market.
The other thing I have noticed is that a negative 1.5 degree of camber is possibly desirable, to match the rear camber. What say you??
Stephen
Since I do not Track the car or AutoX it the FSD's are probably a good choice, but which camber plates would you use? I have noticed that there are a wide variety of plates on the market.
The other thing I have noticed is that a negative 1.5 degree of camber is possibly desirable, to match the rear camber. What say you??
Stephen
The turn-in with these is fantastic
. There is no noticable increase in tire wear and the ride quality is only slightly harsher (the FSDs will take car of that). Adjustable camber plates are much harsher and are un-necessary if you are not doing track or autox.
Your bar would be a 17mm stock
Alliance Member
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 661
Likes: 24
From: Port Orchard, WA.
The easiest setup is the Ireland Engineering fixed camber plate. These will give you about -1.5 to -1.6 deg of camber. IE clams -1.2 for the Gen 2, but that is not counting the -0.3 deg of additional camber that is available in the the Gen 2 suspension.
The turn-in with these is fantastic. There is no noticable increase in tire wear and the ride quality is only slightly harsher (the FSDs will take car of that). Adjustable camber plates are much harsher and are un-necessary if you are not doing track or autox.
The turn-in with these is fantastic
. There is no noticable increase in tire wear and the ride quality is only slightly harsher (the FSDs will take car of that). Adjustable camber plates are much harsher and are un-necessary if you are not doing track or autox.
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Philadelphia
Going of my experiences with my previous car, it really depends on how drastic an increase in stiffness you go with. Cruising on a flat, relatively smooth road, you won't notice any difference between stock and the upgraded unit, but throw twisties and/or potholes into the mix and you'll notice a definitely stiffer ride. Swaybars are a torsion spring that act on the difference between opposite sides of the suspension to try and limit their independent motion, thus cornering becomes flatter, and body roll is decreased. However, a consequence of this is that pot holes and such that only affect one wheel at a time become much more noticeable. Weather this is a big deal or not to you is something only you will be able to answer. Just keep in mind, all tuning is compromise. To gain something, you must give up something in return. You can make a car handle better, but as a result you will either sacrifice some of the ride comfort, deal with more expensive parts, or both. I'm not saying not to modify the car, merely trying to make you aware of all the consequences modifying your car bring about, I hate to see someone dump money into upgrading their car only to find that they got more than they bargained for.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 37
From: Mission Viejo, CA
I installed a H-Sport 25.5mm swaybar 2 months after buying my MCS, using the middle hole for stiffness seems like a good setting. This made a huge difference when cornering and those looping on-ramps to the freeways is actually fun to go through fast because of the lack of body roll, it did stiffen up my rear but I'd rather have better cornering and save some tire tread wear from the understeer. I'll take better traction and flatter cornering at the expense of a slightly bumpy ride.
I installed a H-Sport 25.5mm swaybar 2 months after buying my MCS, using the middle hole for stiffness seems like a good setting. This made a huge difference when cornering and those looping on-ramps to the freeways is actually fun to go through fast because of the lack of body roll, it did stiffen up my rear but I'd rather have better cornering and save some tire tread wear from the understeer. I'll take better traction and flatter cornering at the expense of a slightly bumpy ride.
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 37
From: Mission Viejo, CA
Oh yes, I love my h-sport competition bar! Middle setting as well. There really isn't much of a disadvantage just letting you guys know. I live in potholes and bumpy roads areas. I would say my ride got stiffer but for the better with my Koni's, H&R springs, and lower control arms. But it doesn't matter how you drive, you will get to know how far you can take advantage of your car with the sway bar. Just take it slow at first if you're that scared. In the winter I recommend the first setting.
3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 160
Likes: 2
From: Columbia, MD
hmmm...I hate to be a dissenting voice, but I just purchased the H-Sport competition bar from Way, and installed it on my JCW along with the NM springs. I must say the rear is now VERY stiff, and absolutely crashes into bumps. I'm going to change BACK to the factory, 18.5MM bar....
hmmm...I hate to be a dissenting voice, but I just purchased the H-Sport competition bar from Way, and installed it on my JCW along with the NM springs. I must say the rear is now VERY stiff, and absolutely crashes into bumps. I'm going to change BACK to the factory, 18.5MM bar....
3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 160
Likes: 2
From: Columbia, MD
I'm not convinced of that. I've used the same springs on a couple of Mini's in a row now, and NEVER had this issue. It's not riding on bumps, so unless NM has changed the spring rates in the rear recently, the only difference is the sway bar I've used. In the past, I always used the 19mm. I didn't want to get one that was just half a milimeter larger than my stock one, so I went with the Competition one.
I don't claim to be an expert, but it's awfully stiff in the rear. I mean AWFULLY. Sure, the turn in is quicker, and all the benefits are there in handling, but in my opinion, at least, I'm giving up too much comfort since my JCW is my daily beater.
I'll switch it back, and see....
I don't claim to be an expert, but it's awfully stiff in the rear. I mean AWFULLY. Sure, the turn in is quicker, and all the benefits are there in handling, but in my opinion, at least, I'm giving up too much comfort since my JCW is my daily beater.
I'll switch it back, and see....
It is easy enough to change back and forth. Just be careful taking out the lower shock bolts.
Did you change the bump stops when you installed the springs? My car bottomed a bunch with the factory bump stops (TSW springs are a little less drop than the NM). I used the WMW urethane stops, but if I was doing it again, I would try the fat cat motorsports ones. One of my WMW stops broke (picture one cylinder sliding inside another cylinder).
Let us know what you find out with the stock bar back in.
One last thought: You can just disconnect the rear end links and wire the sway bar and end links out of the way. The handling could be scary, but it would be an easy way to see if the sway bar truly is the issue. Hit some of the bumps that you are familiar with and see if it is different with essentially no RSB.
Have fun,
Mike
Did you change the bump stops when you installed the springs? My car bottomed a bunch with the factory bump stops (TSW springs are a little less drop than the NM). I used the WMW urethane stops, but if I was doing it again, I would try the fat cat motorsports ones. One of my WMW stops broke (picture one cylinder sliding inside another cylinder).
Let us know what you find out with the stock bar back in.
One last thought: You can just disconnect the rear end links and wire the sway bar and end links out of the way. The handling could be scary, but it would be an easy way to see if the sway bar truly is the issue. Hit some of the bumps that you are familiar with and see if it is different with essentially no RSB.
Have fun,
Mike
3rd Gear
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 160
Likes: 2
From: Columbia, MD
That's an interesting thought.
I DID cut the bumpstops, exactly where NM specified to in their instructions. I ordered the WMW stops this morning, just in case, but then I also had the car up on an alignment rack this morning, and used a scope to actually look up inside the boot with the weight of the car on the ground. There looks to be about an inch of shaft showing between bump stop and the shock body.
Last, I spoke with NM directly today. No changes in the spring rates since 2007.
So, unless we somehow seriously loaded the bar while installing it, at full droop, with the factory end links, then the only explanation I can come up with is that I just don't like how stiff that bar is.
I DID cut the bumpstops, exactly where NM specified to in their instructions. I ordered the WMW stops this morning, just in case, but then I also had the car up on an alignment rack this morning, and used a scope to actually look up inside the boot with the weight of the car on the ground. There looks to be about an inch of shaft showing between bump stop and the shock body.
Last, I spoke with NM directly today. No changes in the spring rates since 2007.
So, unless we somehow seriously loaded the bar while installing it, at full droop, with the factory end links, then the only explanation I can come up with is that I just don't like how stiff that bar is.
5th Gear
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 692
Likes: 91
I own a 2005 Justa, I had the oem stock suspension on it. I upgraded to an S rear bar, helped dial some understeer out( bar was free from an S owner and DT installed for almost a song). Then upgraded to an 19mm bar, much better, but on some autox courses, still could understeer, just a little. Finally caught a sale on Hotchkis 25mm hollow, middle setting is very good for me for the Dragon, most tracks and some Autox's. When I need a big swing to adjust for under or over steer, I can change the rear bar stiffness, minor changes done now with Koni Yellows and air pressures in my Bridgestone Potenza RE-11A's. Enjoy the drive!
6th Gear
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,428
Likes: 37
From: Mission Viejo, CA
My experience with the Hotchkis 25mm hollow RSB is that I did notice a bit stiffer in the rear, hit pot holes at 45-75 MPH caused my brother to take notice!
I also notice when I'm coming into a driveway sideways one rear wheels in contact with the road while the other is floating a couple inches of the ground, it affects the ride quality just a little bit but I'll never trade the way it handles around med-high speed looping on-ramps. I love this RSB!
I also notice when I'm coming into a driveway sideways one rear wheels in contact with the road while the other is floating a couple inches of the ground, it affects the ride quality just a little bit but I'll never trade the way it handles around med-high speed looping on-ramps. I love this RSB!
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