I have been reading about "anti-torque steer" on Minis with mechanical limited slips.

As described by Motoringfile, "Beyond weight, cost and mechnical complexity, MINI engineers found issues with LSD on the high torque engines of the JCW and JCW engine kit. Specifically due to the high amount of torque, LSD causes the car to engage too quickly causing what’s been referred to as “anti-torque steer”. Torque steer is something that usually causes the steering to pull to one side under hard acceleration."

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&ct=clnk&gl=us

I think it may also happen on MCS with LSD as well, especially on bumps during turns. Anyone else have more information about this?

 

Are you talking about bump steer? I am not really tracking what you are saying.

 

This sound like something I have noticed. The computer tries to eliminate torque steer, but it seems to be overdoing it. The results is that you get what feels like torque steer, but in the other direction. This is because the compute applied to much breaking to overcome the torque steer resulting in the car pulling in the other direction, but it still feels like torque steer.

 

COKen, the writeup is about the mechanical LSD being too abrupt so it upsets the car under power especially in a turn. I could be wrong but I did not recall anything to do with the computer as it has only to do with cars with the mechanical LSD.

Pothos, yes, it could be bump steer as well from the same issue.

 

The LSD is a mechanical system in the MINI, not computer controlled.

Yes, I believe it does happen on the MCS. Seems like BMW engineers found it acceptable with the MCS, but too extreme with the JCW. My experience is that it is a bit disconcerting with the MCS, but controllable.

When you stomp on the gas in an MCS it tends to pull to one side. Then the LSD transfers power and it pulls the other way. I've felt it shift at least twice during hard acceleration.

One time I was coming home from an evening woodturning workshop (100+ miles away). It was about 11:00 PM and I was tired. Going up the hill from Monterey to Carmel on Hwy 1 I drifted out of my lane a little and then corrected. Red lights came on behind me. He wanted to make sure I wasn't drunk, and I wasn't. So, we are on the side of the freeway and he tells me to get up speed on the shoulder before pulling onto the freeway. Not thinking about torque steer, I accelerate hard to get up to speed quickly. The car pulls, I correct, it pulls the other way... I was sure he was going to stop me again.

 

the first time it happened it scared the crap out of me. however since then I know to expect and if I just let the lsd do what it's doing and "ride" it out, I've found that it's faster through a given turn vs trying to "correct" the anti-torque steer.

with the JCW engine kit, I notice it less or maybe it's that I've gotten used to it that it doesn't bother me. I like the way the lsd pulls me through the turns now.

 

It has been awhile since I saw the dyno charts, but doesn't the JCW kit give up some low-end torque for better power at high revs.? That would explain why it is better behaved with the kit.

 

Oops, I guess my speed reading of the post was off. But it is my belief that the computer controlled LSD is doing the same thing.

 

Do you have the DTC option? The EDLC that comes with it is supposed to be quite well mannered and not cause anti-torque steer. Have you found that not to be true?

 

I have the Works with the electronic LSD. Is that what the EDLC is? What I'm seeing is that without changing any setting after starting the car, when I do a smooth moderate to hard start the car will pull from side to side which feels like torque steer. If I push the DTC button once it says that DTC is enabled and DSC is limited. Now when I do a smooth moderate to hard start there is no pull from side to side. This makes me think that the stability control is what is making it feel like torque steer. I think the ELSD is getting into the act somewhere also. Both ELSD and DSC use the breaks to try to control the car for you.

 

The Quaife LSD on new Euro Focus RS is designed to work with ECU. When the diff itself can't handle 100% power at certain speed/rev, the ECU/Traction control will limit the power to smooth things out for a short period.

 

Lowering the car as well as installing a set of Alta PSRS or poly control arm bushings will go a long way towards eliminating torque steer in the clutch pack style LSD cars. I definitely found this to be the case with my 07'

 

On this forum, "LSD" usually means the mechanical system.

The 2nd Gen. JCW comes with the DTC option. That includes DSC, DTC, and EDLC (Electronic Differential Lock Control).

My understanding is that if you push the DTC button once it turns off DSC. If you push it again (or maybe you have to hold it down for a few seconds?) it turns off both DSC and DTC, leaving just EDLC on. This is the state MotoringFile was talking about. This is what is supposed to be smoother than the mechanical LSD.

Give that a try and see how it behaves.

When I get an opportunity to safely do a WOT, I'll have to try it w/out DSC. It would be interesting to find out that DSC was the culprit.

 

Most MINIs have something similar. On 2007 models it was called All Season Control (ASC) and cut power when a drive wheel started to spin. It was not tied into the mechanical LSD. It worked through rotations sensors and on non-LSD MINIs as well. I think later models have something similar with different initials.

 

When you push it once it says DTC on and DSC is limited. If you hold it down, then the yellow triangle with the "!" comes on indicating that both DTC and DSC are off. During an autocross I did this and seemed to be spinning wheels freely although I was still able to pick up speed. Not sure if the EDLC was letting the wheel spin some but controlling it enough to allow power to the other wheel or not.

It would be nice if the manual would explain how all of this works together (c;

 

One of the things that may exacerbate torque steer is being too abrupt. Instead of stomping the gas try feeding the power on a bit more smoothly. If you've ever raced or done any HPDE you will learn smooth is much faster & more controlled.

 

is, I think, caused by the mechanical LSD trying to make the inner and outer wheel turn at the same rate. Depending on the turn and the crown on the road, it can cause the car to go to the outside of the turn pretty seriously. For those who have grey hair like I do, this is the FWD equivalent of locking differential induced understeer. (I have a tight off camber turn near my house where this can be quite the problem.) What it really means is that if you hammer the car through a turn like this, you WILL go pretty drastically to the OUTSIDE of the turn.

Like Crashton says, not just pushing the gas all the way down will help to eliminate this. But for those who need to improve on finesse (meaning most drivers including me), the end result is exactly the opposite of what you want out of LSDs. Higher torque can make the problem much worse.

My car is an O2 with a Quaiffe.

Matt

 

Crashton,

I wish that was the solution but even with smooth inputs, there is still an abrupt engagement of the LSD leading to torque steer. It is worse in a bump but can be unexpected which is bad.

 

This also happens with part throttle at relative slow speeds, either slow/medium acceleration or constant speed.

The "best" fix I have found is to lower the tire pressure somewhat to 34-36 psi fronts, somewhat with Non RFT and some front camber.

We are not talking about forcing the car into torque steer with steering inputs and gas.

I would suggest that if you could, you should try a R56 with this identified problem to see what you think. Then, the problem becomes quite clear.

 

I've driven a couple of R56 MCS', but only one with LSD. For me it didn't really feel any different than my R53 with LSD. Oh except it was faster.

 

Could it be spinning both wheels? I've read that -- unlike DTC -- EDLC will not cut engine power. Does it pull back and forth?

 

Yea, finesse is probably the best solution.

Anti-torque steer oscillation can happen in a straight line. It is not just steering induced.

 

Crashton and Dr Obnxs, if you are out in the NE for any reason, I would like you to test drive my car. It does have some small power mods and JCW stage 1 along with a sport suspension, 17" rims and LSD. The car seems to have a little more torque steer than some. You will be surprised by its sudden movements.

Funny thing, this does not seem to happen on the track. My car is a July 2008 MCS and I have 13 track days with the car so far in one year and it seems alright there. I run the same non RFT tires on the track and on the road so I know it is not those. I hope that many years of track days with different cars and many advanced race schools have given me somewhat smoother hands/feet, eyes that look up, smooth gear shifting and a feel for the car. That said, I still learn every track day.

I think being smooth can help in many situations and I am all for it. But in this one, especially in a turn with bumps, it can still be surprising.

 

I'm wondering if it is the not so smooth pavement in the real world that makes the difference you are feeling. Tracks are pretty smooth, except for Nelson Ledges. My car will torque steer coming out of the tight & bumpy turn 13 onto the pit straight at Nelson unless I am ultra smooth putting the power back on.

 

I guess it's cause I have driven another fwd with an LSD that had as bad if not worse "torque steer" it doesn't bother me. If you can't handle it or don't like you don't need to accelerate that hard. I guess it's subjective on your expierence with it.