im sorry to sound dumb but this is going to be my first manual car so I have a few questions. When wanting to downshift to pass another car is it ok to uprev the engine while the clutch is pressed in? Ive heard that its not good to "run with the clutch." would it be better to double clutch instead? Also can it be done the same with the heal toe method?

Thank you

 

dbl clutch or rev match. The synchros and close gear raitos shoudl make this relatively easy for passing situations

 

Just my personal opinion (and there are varied opinions-just giving you mine), but if you're new to manual, don't worry about double-clutching or heal-toe. Just let off the gas, depress clutch, shift, and let out the clutch as you start accelerating again.

As you're depressing the clutch, and re-engaging it, use enough throttle to match rpms-it'll get to be second habit. What you want to do is keep from slipping the clutch as much as you can, and matching rpms lets you do smooth gear changes.

If you're revving up the motor a bunch while the clutch is dis-engaged, and trying to chirp the tires or something, you'll cause a bunch of stress on the clutch. The clutch is a dual mass flywheel with springs and stuff. You don't want to run the risk of "popping" the clutch too much, or you might snap a spring on the flywheel. That would be bad. (search through the forum for "dual mass" if you want some background)

You'll get more life out of the clutch/flywheel if you just use it to change gears once you're moving, not trying to "play games" shifting, and try to make the shifts quickly and smoothly, and get the clutch re-engaged. Once you're moving, make most of your acceleration without messing with the clutch. Repairs are EXPENSIVE on an FWD car.

Double-clutching really isn't "necessary" on a modern transmission with good synchros. Heal-toe might help some people shift quicker. But many people get along fine without using either, and if it's your first manual, chances are you have a bit of practice ahead of you getting perfect regular shifting without worrying about advanced techniques. I've used both, can use both, hardly ever use either, but really only "needed" them when I've totally lost the clutch and am in limp-home mode. (thanks leaky hydraulic clutch o-rings and neighbors helping bring in hay...)

 

Simple answer= What you are doing is OK. Each gear is separated by about 800 rpm. So if you're downshifting one gear, rev it up ~800 rpm before letting the clutch out.

 

That's why you hear "Vrm,..Vrooooooommmmaaaaah". Vrm = blip. ..=engage.
Vroooooommmm=accelerate. aaaaah=clutch in to shift up again.

 

heres the deal, just like dwjj said previously, don't worry about double clutching or reving the engine. Double Clutching on a modern car is pointless because of what is called the syncromesh (links gears together), but in older cars you had to clutch to change into neutral and then clutch to change into gear because there was no syncros.....so scratch the idea of double clutching. As for reving the engine, is it helpful? sure it can be, but if you are new to driving a manual then i wouldn't do it.

Focus on lifting the clutch up slowly and then accelerate gently into the gear. Once you have mastered changing gear smoothly, then move on to more advanced things such as heal toe/or downchanging while blipping the throttle.

 

thank you all for the info and tips itll help me a lot...and thank you a lot for the 800 rev info because i realy was curious how far the gears were separated on the mini...i really am excited for switching to manual...auto just doesnt give you a connection with your car and eliminates certain aspects of control.

 

Some people are visual learners (like me). I think this will help visualize things.

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/transmission1.htm

In a simplified explanation, the drivetrain is like this:

1)Engine turns the flywheel.
2)Flywheel is engaged to the clutch plate when the clutch pedal is let up and disengaged to the clutch when the clutch pedal is pressed down.
3)The clutch is connected to and turns the input shaft of the transmission.
4)The "stick" moves gears into place to select which "gear" (N,1,2,3,4,5,6,R) the transmission is in.
5)The gears turn the output shaft of the transmission. Note that if the transmission is in neutral, the input shaft will spin, but the gears will not transmit power to the output shaft.
6)The output shaft of the transmission is connected to the drive wheels (via a differential).

As you can see the driver has 2 points of controlling the drivetrain, the clutch and the stick. If the clutch is up (engaged i.e. pressed up against the flywheel) and 1st gear is selected using the stick, there is a continuous mechanical connection between the engine and the wheels so the car will move forward. If either the clutch pedal is depressed OR the stick is in neutral, no power can get to the wheels.

Syncromesh come into play as the spinning gears move closer together. They create a partial connection between the gears as the driver shifts so the spinning gears on the input shaft and output shaft match up RPM to prevent grinding gears.

There are 3 things that need to be RPM matched to have a smooth shift. The flywheel (engine), the clutch/input shaft, and the wheels/output shaft. If there is a big RPM difference, then the drivetrain can be jolted (causing momentary traction loss) if the clutch pedal is let up quickly or there will be a lot of friction between the flywheel and clutch if the clutch pedal is slowly let up.

During a normal shift what happens? As the driver depresses the clutch pedal, he eases off the gas pedal (to prevent over reving the engine), then using the stick he selects a gear, then releases the clutch pedal while easing back down on the gas pedal to increase the engine RPM. How fast to release the clutch and how much gas to give? While the clutch is disengaged, and the car is in the new gear, the road is turning the wheels which in turn are turning the output shaft, gears, input shaft and clutch. So the idea is give enough gas to the flywheel spins up to approximately the same RPM as the spinning clutch as they press together. If the RPM are very close, then there won't be much friction between the flywheel and clutch and the pedal can be let up quickly without any problems. If the RPM difference is large then there will be a lot of friction as the flywheel and clutch "catch up" to the same RPM and the pedal will have to be let up more slowly to allow time for the catching up. If this is an upshift, the driver doesn't have to give as much gas because the gear ratio in the higher new gear means that the input shaft/clutch are spinning less quickly as in the previous gear. If this is a downshift, then the driver will have to give more gas because now the input shaft/clutch are spinning more more quickly than as in the previous gear.

To answer the OP's question. When downshifting to accelerate, the idea is to go faster so give more gas as the clutch fully engages and then floor it to speed away. No need to heel-toe because the whole point is not to use the brakes.

If the objective is to slow down: apply brakes, when the engine RPMs drop, downshift to keep the RPMs in the "sweet spot", then continue braking and downshifting if necessary.

What is heel-toe? Not really useful on the street, it's for the track. All heel-toe is doing is combining the slowing down procedure of braking, then downshifting all into 1 step (to save time). Because (most) drivers only have 2 feet the brake pedal is depressed with the ball of the right foot and the gas is "blipped" with the right outside edge of the right foot in order to match the RPM of the flywheel and clutch/input shaft.

What is double clutching (a.k.a. double declutching)? Obsolete for modern street cars because they all have synchromesh, unless the driver just wants to sound like a race car by revving the engine while downshifting. Really old cars and many modern racing cars not have sychromesh, so in order to avoid grinding gears during a shift, the driver had to match the RPM of the input shaft to the output shaft. This was done by depressing the clutch pedal, shifting into neutral, popping up the clutch (this can be done very quickly because the input shaft has little mass), revving the engine to spin the input shaft up, depressing the clutch pedal, shifting into the new gear, letting up the clutch pedal while easing back onto the gas.

Just for the sake of completeness, when driving a race car without synchromesh, drivers have to heel-toe-double-clutch. Yes, it is exactly what it sounds like. The driver throws in a double-clutch in the middle of heel-toeing.

BTW, I'm not a driving instructor, but I did stay at at a Holiday Inn Express last night

 

You should do a Skip Barber Racing school.

 

I was taught the heel/toe method (blipping the throttle while braking, and while downshifting to slow down) is intended to provide a rapid downshift without the lurch. The rapid downshift lurch results in an unbalanced car, shifting weight from the rear to the front. On the track that will scrub speed off your lap times.

 

My wife had not driven a manual in 10+ years when I turned over our test drive of a new Cooper-S to her in down town Boston. She did very well. It's an easy manual to drive.

 

Yup, IIRC, the other advantages of heel-toe downshifting compared to braking, then downshifting on the track is that because the driver can downshift and brake at the same time, the he doesn't have to begin braking as early when entering a corner, and hence can spend more time on the gas in the straight preceding the corner. This is especially important when two cars are in a braking duel entering the same corner, the car that can brake later generally will have a positional advantage going for the apex.

 

Why would you be using the "heel/toe" method if you are preparing to pass someone????

 

driving shoes in general are narrower than cross training shoes. I found my driving shoes do not help when I do heel-n-toe because what I really do is ball-n-blade. Maybe my feet are too small. Anyway, the ideal driving shoes for me would be a crosstrainer with rounded heels like driving shoes.

 

This may be so, but you seem to know a helluva lot more than some of these people posting in this thread. It's been my experience on internet car forums, that many people like throw in the term "heal/toe" in their response for the sole reason they think it makes them sound cool, while in reality, they have absolutely ZERO clue about what it truly is and what it's used for. It's kinda like "name dropping". It doesn't mean much when you really don't know the person, but you hope to fool and impress those who may be listening.

PS. What does "driving shoes" have to do with the OPs question anyway (or any other reply in this thread)?

PPS. The OP simply wants to know how to execute a downshift to pass another vehicle. Why "should" he go to a "racing school"????

I haven't made a point of posting much on this forum, but the way this thread has blown way out of proportion and so way off topic, it needed commentary.

 

The OP said he is new to the manual tranny world. And I am trying to be helpful in some way and some people belittle my effort. Oh, well. I am used to this kind of Online behaviors anyway.

Let's ask the OP if my driving shoe post was helpful or not. And ask also if the driving school post was completely off topic. IMHO, your last post was the least helpful/useful of all.

 

Way too much info.

Just go out and drive, It's just like riding a bicycle. If I can do it ... anybody can do it

 

Sorry to hurt your feeling.
If a brick was about to fall on your head, shall I just push you out of the way or stand there and give you a lecture on which foot to move first?
Just because he's new to manual and asks how to downshift for a pass, doesn't mean he needs to know about driving shoes or "racing" schools. Helpful is one thing, but you're telling a guy how to be a brain surgeon when he just wants to put on a bandaid.
(Oh, or did you want me to be impressed that you have driving shoes or have been to a racing school? Is that what your post was all about? Again, I'm sorry, I'm duly impressed.)

 

Wow, you have driving shoes? Really? While that might convince some people to think you're cool, it was an otherwise totally useless post.

 

The OP was not a life/death question as you imply by your falling brick analogy.

The OP inquired about downshifting to pass and referred to "heal toe method". Hence the further replies describing shifting technique and the situations where heal/toe is advantageous and where it does not make much sense. Shoes do make a difference when you are serious about heal/toe shifting.

You could have made your point about possible off topic posts without being as offensive.

 

Back on topic please. There are many other threads about various techniques and about shoes.

The question is a good one. Nothing "dumb" about it.

If the MINI is your first manual transmission car that's great. It's a good one to learn on.

About passing (which is fun if you are in the right gear), if you are cruising along and notice that the rpms showing on your tachometer are hovering around 1500 to 2000, the gear you are in isn't the best for passing. At that rpm you are fine at that steady speed but you won't have power easily.

To get more power to pass you could downshift (one or two gears) just to rev the engine a little and get more rpms and into the power band. At higher rpms say 3500 to 4000 you have ample HP and torque from the engine no matter which gear you have but you don't have to downshift so far as to go to an extreme.

For daily street driving, 2nd or 3rd gear is useful enough for passing. So lets say you are in 4th you can downshift to 2nd or 3rd to get more power to pass but you don't need to shift down more than one or two gears. On the highway if I'm in 6th and slowing I might downshift to 4th. But once down engine rpms will jump up due to the gear change and then heel toe method is helpful but more advanced. Generally don't worry about it unless you have a friend that can help you with practicing it. People that know how to use it very well can make use of heel toe for daily driving- it's fine.

Of note, if you are going on the highway at lets say 60 in 6th and you want to pass but you are staying at 60 mph then switching gears to 4th will really jump your rpms (you'll hear it rev higher). In my previous example I was slowing (going uphill or coming up to a slower vehicle) so already my rpms were about to drop in 6th gear so the switch to 4th didn't really result in such a jump in rpms.

At driving school you get to learn more about your car in a safe environment so it's good for the instruction and practice on a closed course with less risk. Shifting is one of the things you get to practice so I think it is a good suggestion.

Run with the clutch?- The clutch allows you to change gears so if possible you don't want your foot on the clutch when you are not actively shifting gears. If you ride the clutch pedal with your left foot you will prematurely wear your clutch and need replacement. A clutch can last many miles before it needs to be replaced.

Keep asking questions as they come up and get out there to practice. I'm teaching my 16 year old son to drive my MCS and he's got the same concerns as you.

 

Thanks for seeing where I was coming from. I wish this form has an ignore function so that I can block some posters out or they can block me out also.

I found out how to ignore their posts.

 

hey thanks for all the feedback...and sorry some of you had such confrentation with each other

 

No worries. All internet forums have trolls that just post negative comments. Learn all you can, enjoy the new Mini and motor on!

 

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