What's missing from this thread is a discussion of awareness.

I drive 20-30k miles a year and have not been pulled over (let alone ticketed) since 1977 (dating myself, I know). Yes, I am a careful and responsible driver, but I almost always go the speed of traffic or slightly above, so by definition I am sometimes speeding. I would estimate that during my daily commute I am exceeding the posted speed limit at least 50% of the time just by rolling with the pack.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that you folks who are getting speeding tickets ("traps" or not) lack sufficient awareness. In my view, it is that lack of awareness that makes you dangerous to other motorists, not your speeding, but speeding is easily measured whereas awareness is not.

Here are some rules that have helped me be a safe (if often fast) driver over the years.

1) Learn to gauge your level of awareness and drive accordingly. Awareness drops with multitasking, so when you are driving don't do anything else. Bizarre as it sounds, I never drink from my water bottle or coffee mug unless I am stopped at a traffic light. I do not talk on my cell phone when I am driving. If your awareness is not 100%, then you need to be poking along in the slow lane and taking it easy. If you are tired, your awareness is lower--respect that and take it easy. Know how alert you are and drive accordingly.

2) Learn about traps and learn about the places LEOs hide out. The obvious ones are quickly dropping speed limits as you approach towns. County lines and other jurisdiction boundaries are other hot spots because most LEOs have to turn around there. Roads that run downhill and have a low speed limit are sure traps in many areas. Every airport approach road in the country has a high enforcement area as you approach the airport. Many traps are seasonal (such as school zones) and three-day weekends are usually characterized by high-visibility "zero tolerance" enforcement. Any time you see a car pulled over by a cop on the side of the road, consider that zone risky for the next few days at least. LEOs will often "work" a particular stretch of highway for a week or two then move on, so it is a good idea to note trends and behave accordingly.

3) Respect LEOs. Whenever you see one, make sure you are following the law to the letter. If you are speeding, slow down to the limit immediately. Go out of your way to show them your brake lights and demonstrate your intent to obey the law.

4) Recognize law enforcement vehicles. I'm not just talking about being able to recognize a Crown Vic by the headlamp arrangement (you can, can't you?), but knowing what types of unmarked vehicles the police are using where you drive. If you don't know, go the speed limit. In VA and MD where I do most of my driving, I see not only Crown Vics but also Jeep Cherokees, Dodge Chargers (the new ones), Chrysler/Plymouth minivans, Ford Explorers and Expeditions, and many others. Spotting these has to be a full-time hobby for you. This is getting harder due to the proliferation of ummarked patrol cars in all jurisdictions.

5) Leave earlier. No matter what, never let time pressures dictate the way you drive. If you leave late then speeding becomes a solution to a problem that is unrelated to your driving. This is a false association that will get you into trouble--you HAVE TO speed to solve a different problem. You will be stressed and stress will reduce your awareness and judgement.

6) Have personal limits that are independent of posted limits, and never violate your personal limits. I suggest a personal limit that is below the statutory "reckless driving" speed. This is a limit you never exceed.

7) Focus on other aspects of driving besides speed. Many people speed because it demands more attention and it is easier for them to remain alert (I'm one of them). There is a lot going on besides your speed--you can concentrate on positioning yourself for the optimal safety oval, on anticipating dangerous situations for others as well as yourself, etc.

8) Do not depend on a radar decector. I've never even owned one--not just because they are illegal where I live, but because I believe they increase your odds of getting caught. With a radar dector you are depending on something outside of your awareness and thus taking the edge off your alertness. If your awareness alone isn't good enough for you to be sure, then don't do it.

9) On long drives in areas where you are not familiar with local law enforcement vehicles or trap locations, take it easy and have the person riding shotgun be an additional spotter.

10) Look at what others are doing, especially performance oriented cars (ticket magnets)--if they slow down they probably know something you don't. Don't wait to find out what it is, slow down with them. When the guy passing you at 90 in his Corvette suddenly slows down to the posted limit and moves to the right lane, it's time to slow down.

11) Drive an understated car--whatever you do, don't modify your car to LOOK faster. If the look of your car is saying "fast" to your friends, it is saying the same thing to local law enforcement.

30-years of driving experience, for what it's worth.

 

Dude your awsome!

So how does it feel to be able to pat yourself on the back like that?

My dad always told me "never **** into the wind".

 

It's worth a lot! Very good advice for anyone.

 

I couldnt agree more, and could not have said it better myself.

 

Cydewave: ... but a 55 limit on a road that should be marked at 65 or 70 is just a load of rubbish.

I agree 100% with your last post. I would never say that the speed limits all made sense nor that we are not a government of the people because we are ... a republic. The people you and I voted into office created those laws. You can change that. Some speed limits are rubbish. I cant argue against that but you break that at the risk of tickets on your record and rising insurance costs.

FINDUDE: Wow. Great ideas but ... I got to take issue with a couple. The rest are common sense that I would think most everyone might do intuitively.

5) Leave earlier.

Aint going to happen. Its human nature.

6) Have personal limits that are independent of posted limits, and never violate your personal limits. I suggest a personal limit that is below the statutory "reckless driving" speed. This is a limit you never exceed.

VA is a bad state. 80 or over is mandatory reckless driving. There is NO statutory reckless driving speed in MD (and many other states).

I think the issue here is at what speed will your insurance company drop you? That will hurt far more than any ticket. I am not advocating anything here other than your experience in VA may not be the same nation wide.

8) Do not depend on a radar decector.

Again, VA has that pesky law. There is a time and place for it that I can describe as follows ... In daily driver I haven't used one, well forever. Way too much traffic, its pointless. However, I have traveled extensively across the US on most of the Interstates and if your looking to make time, without reckless driving, then it can be a great help especially out west in the vast stretches where you can pick up the signal a mile away. I am not talking about doing any particular speed, merely making you aware of your surroundings!

11) Drive an understated car--whatever you do, don't modify your car to LOOK faster. If the look of your car is saying "fast" to your friends, it is saying the same thing to local law enforcement.

I guess here is where I draw the line. Life is too short to drive a boring colored car. I guess I should add ALL my sports car have been RED since red (and white and black) are the only proper colors for a sports car, there is just no way the "earth tone" cars have any appeal to me.

And guess what ... that is not always true. I drove a RED 911, RED Eclipse Turbo,RED 240Z, two WHITE (MR2 Turbos), ORANGE (opal), RED MINI (obviously) and have NEVER been stopped in any of those cars.

I drive a boring, bland, light brown Toyota Corolla and ... whoop whoop whoop .

 

Ideally yes. Realistically, it's not going to happen. The chances of someone being elected and then saying, "Hey, some of these speed limits are nonsense! Let's fix em" are around 0%. It would be political suicide, because the person on the other side of the aisle is going to say. "Joe wants to jack all the speed limits up and kill our kids!"

We can change some things, but I'm concerned about what's real, not what's ideal.

 

I agree with findude's post, I was just busting *****. But again it was just a simple yes/no answer.

But since we started talking about this. IMHO the two biggest problems on the roads today is the lack of common courtesy and the lack of drivers paying attention.

Lack of common courtesy events I see daily.....
-not letting a 18whr over or speeding up because they are slow, big, and/or scary. Remember they are hauling the food you eat and the cloths you wear.
-if able, not getting out of the right lane so traffic can enter the hwy/road with ease.
-not waving thanks when someone does give you the lane.
-seeing someone speed up not to allow another car head of them.
-sitting in traffic and not letting another car in front that is coming out of a parking lot...or just trying to cross the road.
-again...not saying thank you when someone does this.
-tailgating another vehicle.
-knowing someone is drivng faster and not getting over to them pass.
-drivers going to the very end of a lane closure and passing everyone who has been sitting there for minutes.

I have had friends tell me they play games on the road....WHAT!!! zero games should be played behind the wheel. This is the grabage that leads to "road rage".

Not paying attenting events I see daily.....
-Missouri has a lot of "hammer lane heros" and hwy/roads that are two or more lanes all vehicles should remain right except for passing...how many times have you seen someone parked in the left lane. (this could also fall under common courtisy)
-not driving their mirrors.
-80% of the drivers have cell phones in their ears. You know they are not paying attention.
-drivers reading news papers, a book, or paper work while driving.
-drivers putting on make-up, hopefully female drivers shaving, hopefully male drivers.
-drivers eating.

This list can go on and on.

Since this is has turned into a good driver/bad driver thead this is my 2c.

Pay attention and be courteous.

 

Those are both VERY easy for me to agree to, but mostly because I'm an avid cyclist, so those things hit very close to home for me. The difference is, instead of a fender bender, it's a trip to the emergency room.

As discourteous as people are to you when you're in a car, they're usually 10x worse when you're on a bike. One of the best explanations I heard for this was that when people are driving, sitting there in their air conditioning with the music playing, they view it as their personal space and not a public space. When you need to change lanes or pull across, they see this as a violation of their personal space rather than you trying to use the public road.

Again, we're beyond the scope of the topic of this thread, but I agree with what you've said. Those are both big problems.

 

Living in the "City of Lance" and having a wife who is something of a cyclist (I prefer mountain biking, i.e. being far, far away from cars), I agree as well. The lack of courtesty shown toward cyclists, not only by drivers but by road planning, is astonishing. We actually had a woman killed in a hit and run incident about a month ago...terrible.

Personally, I view cyclists as the most fragile things on the road, and do what I can to give them distance.

That said, it is not uncommon in Austin to see cyclists displaying the same lack of courtest/lack of attention. Failing to stop at lights, riding side-by-side in the middle of a road while a car is trying to get around, etc. The one that really gets me is skipping ahead of a dozen or so cars at a light, only to hold up those dozen or so cars once the light turns green.

 

It is all good.

I never thought my thread would be such a hit, it is up to six pages.

Anything having to do with the road leads to having to do with the Mini. Bad drivers have a great impact on us being able to enjoy the Mini experience.

Flashing headlights keeps the 'bears' from eating the Minis or Mini owners.

Who knows, maybe our postings opened the minds of others. Maybe one driver read our posts and has now changed their driving habits and realized they were part of the problem.

If we touch just one...then mission accomplished in my eyes.

 

Good stuff here...

My commute is on GW parkway between the Airport to Mt Vernon. Speed limit 45. I will flash to warn cars that appear to be going close to the limit or anywhere near a reasonable clip.

There are a number of places where from side roads have where you have to pull out and make a left onto a undivided 4 lane parkway.

I cheerfully do NOT flash to warn those who are obviously doing 65+. Yes, this is based on nothing more than MY personal opinion of who is being reasonable and who is driving way too fast for the conditions. But hey, they're my headlights.

Git'em copper!

I'm not a big fan of radar. Most of the really dangerous things I see on the roads and highways in particular don't have to do with speed. They have to do with aggresive driving, lane changing, and cutting people off.

Unfortunately it's easier for a officer to sit on the side of the road and just run radar or the laser than it is to patrol in traffic catching the (in my opinion) more dangerous stuff. Or do statistics show that almost all cut off lane change nuts are also the ones who speed? I don't know.

Police have a thankless job and I for one am grateful for most of what they do. They are stretched too thin between dealing with violent crime and sitting in court plus traffic duty. Here's my idea, anyone who wants to run for office feel free to steal this.

We don't need "real police officers" to run a radar trap. You don't see detectives running radar and doing traffic work. I'd suggest that most officers are overkill in skill, training, and equipment for traffic work. I think we need another grade/level of basic "traffic cops" who are less trained, less expensive, and therefore more plentiful than a "full" officer patroling in traffic and such.

Not a perfect solution, I realize sometime traffic stops 'net' people with warrants etc, but still an idea with some potential I think.

 

There are definitely some jacka$$ cyclists, but the thing is, they're jerks to other cyclists as well! The ones who blow stop signs, etc, are the same ones who won't wave at you if you pass in the other direction, and won't give you the time of day if you run into them at a stop.

Whenever I come to an intersection, I stop behind the last car, just like I would if I were driving. Otherwise, every car I pass to get to the front of the line is another car that has to re-pass me farther down the road (and another chance to be a hood ornament).

I've been riding for longer than I've been driving, and there's no need for any of that nonsense. The first step toward being treated as an equal on the road is to act like an equal.

 

I've actually been hit from behind while on my bike by other bikes several times when stopping at stop signs! This was with a hand signal, saying 'stopping' and doing so gradually.

I commuted 100% by bike for about 2 years. When road cycling I always felt like if I wanted the same rights I needed to follow the same rules. Plus it makes you pedictable and less likely to end up a hood ornament.

 

Actually, that is not true.

In 1973 with the oil embargo, the federal government mandated a national 55 MPH speed limit despite the cries from states like Montana and Nevada ... land of the R&P speed limits pre-1973. The cries of "speed kills" were everwhere from the Nadar types. Montana choice to give $5 speeding tickets

Once the national speed limit was lifted, most states went immediately back to the old limits or HIGHER. Some studies showed that higher speeds DID NOT mean more highway deaths. Drunk Drivers ... yes. But not higher speeds on Interstates. Montana immediately went back to R&P but due to a court case even that was dropped.


For five months in 1999, Montana had NO speed limit. That has since been reduce to 75.

Just recently Texas went to 80 in parts of the state http://www.woai.com/news/local/story...F-859AFD3668D4
There are other proposed roads in TX where the speed limit will be 85.

So it does happen. Will it happen in highly congested cities, residential areas, major metroplex areas? Of course not.

 

mmmm 85. thats a good number IMHO

 

This one is state dependent. Passing on the right is legal here. I see lots of people just sitting a little over the speed limit in the left lane but its perfectly legal since you can pass on the right.

 

For the most part is is. Sure, there are exceptions, but your examples are in the minority. Sure, we can post endless opposing stats, but what's the point?

The fact of the matter is that if I grabbed a speed measuring device and picked a random road in the US, the speed limit would most likely be 10-15mph below what an engineer would set it at. Fixing it on a few roads out in East Nowheresville is fine and dandy, but it doesn't help the rest of us much.

 

i really like this sign.

 

Here is your argument...

Some claim that because interstate highways meet rigid design standards for sight distance and roadway geometry, they should be posted at their design speeds. But a design speed is not necessarily a safe travel speed. The American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials defines design speed as "the maximum safe speed that can be maintained…when conditions are so favorable that the design features govern."19 In other words, it is the maximum speed at which drivers can maintain a safe level of vehicle control on a particular section of highway under the conditions for which the highway was designed. Speed limits are set somewhat lower because conditions are not always favorable, and design features do not always warrant higher speeds. http://www.iihs.org/research/qanda/speed_limits.html

That is exactly your claim. This answer appears wishy-washy to me because its basically using the lowest common denominator approach. Just because a highway is designed at a certain speed, weather or something else doesn't mean its safe to drive at that speed and we have to account for that.

The 85% percentile argument is also moot (although you didnt mention it) because the target keeps moving. I assume your not talking about residential areas because too many kids run into the street so its highways. Interestingly, see http://www.crashprevention.org/news/...&news_id=89#89
since your in MD. Highway dept wants to raise the limits but severe penalties for breaking the new laws (hasn't happened yet and that was a 2004 article).

In MD, the bottom line is the state law limiting speed to 65. See http://www.sha.state.md.us/SHAServic...ends_intro.asp
the highway administration can change the speed limits but not exceed the law. So its in the hands of those you and I elect. Note that MD highway Admin "believes" the 85 percentile rule is a good one despite the fact the Feds do not. However, the Feds cannot overule state law unless it goes back to a mandated speed limit ... so again, its up to the state Reps. There is good info about MD in that website.

 

I can see this is turning into a never-ending argument. No need to cite Maryland speed laws, as they are pretty irrelevent. Regardless of what the sign says, you can only go so fast in bumper-to-bumper traffic. Unless it's 3am, the speed limit sign is pretty much for looks. I can't complain much though, as I've been ticket-free for over 15 years. The county police here do go on the occasional rampage though, but I'm too busy yakking on my cellphone and steering with my knees to drive very fast. Just kidding!

The IIHS is fun too. Their data is in conflict with ours as much as it's in agreement. You can get stats to say just about anything you want.

So anyway, going by your post (and your mention of the 85th percentile being a moving target) you're saying that we should figure out what speed is always safe in any condition, and use that to set the speed limit. That's pretty much what IIHS says, no?

So maybe it's foggy or pouring rain, so 55 is waaaaay too fast. 40mph would be much safer, and while we're at it, heck, 25mph would be even safer yet. So let's make that the national speed limit, and no one will ever crash. And even if they do, it'll be cheap to fix, so the insurance pay-out will be very low. After all, the IIHS is owned and run by the insurance companies.

Personally, rather than use a speed limit which is always safe for every condition (which in actuality is probably 0mph), I would prefer a reasonable speed limit that you get nailed to the wall for exceeding, and let people use common sense to adjust for conditions. Sure, expecting drivers to exercise common sense is probably expecting the impossible (yep, you got me there), but the alternative is to have people who aren't doing anything dangerous getting punished because, under different conditions, their speed might be dangerous. That's like saying it's illegal to walk on the sidewalk, because someday it might be icy.

Anyway, you're going to lose me from this debate soon, because it's not why I joined these forums, and I get enough of this nonsense when I'm at work to be hassled with it during my own time. You sir, may therefore have the final word.

 

It is ok....throught the nose out the mouth....throught the nose out the mouth.....throught the nose out the mouth.

I think this thread has reached it's climax.

Thank you all for your 2c.

 

Oh cool, I get the last word. Hmm, I never get that at home

Just a quick explanation.

The moving target for 85% only means that if you make it 80, then it goes up. Make it 90 and 15% will still go faster, etc.
Its the 80/20 law (I forgot who named that) ... basically 80% of the problems are caused by 20% of the people. You can apply that in most any circumstance (or 90/10 rule). Example ... 80% of tickets go to 20% of the drivers. 80% of complaint about some subject are made by 20% of the people.

MD Highways advocates that rule albeit a moving target but the leglislature sets the law.

 

Word. (LOL sorry couldn't resist)
Your argument seems logical at first... but it also assumes that the same percentage of people will always continue to drive a certain amount over the limit, regardless of the limit. I disagree. I think that people will only drive at a speed they are comfortable at. As the speed limit rises, sure, some people (who feel comfortable at ever-faster speeds) will drive just as much faster. But the vast majority will only increase their speed to a certain point... and no higher. If they are then legal (due to the increased limit), so much the better.

Case in point... say that the highway speed limit was increased all the way to 100 mph. How many people do you think would actually drive that speed? How many people would drive over that speed on a consistent basis? I don't think the same percentages would apply. So while the target may move, I disagree that the ratio would remain the same as it moves.

I feel that one of the biggest causes of crashes is the delta between the fastest and slowest driver on a given road. If there is a large delta (20 or 30 mph, for example), it becomes more dangerous. If everyone was driving within 5 mph of each other, accidents would be less likely to begin with. The trick is to find the best way to prevent accidents from happening in the first place. It's quite feasible that a higher speed limit will lower the delta, therefore reducing the chance of an accident. An ounce of prevention is better than a TON of cure!

Speeding alone does not cause accidents... it only amplifies mistakes, and makes those mistakes worse. If simply travelling fast caused accidents, we wouldn't have motor racing, skydiving or astronauts.

 

Ahh, I misunderstood.

See, this is why I want out of this conversation. There are so many things that are "my data vs your data". For instance, there have been studies that show that a posted limit has almost no effect on the actual speed of travel. Also, the 85th percentile is set independent of any posted limit, so the "moving target" thing shouldn't apply.

There was one particular study where new roads were deliberately left unmarked, and speed was observed. The 85th percentile was then noted. On half of the roads, a speed limit was posted 20mph below the 85th percentile speed, and on the other half, the limit was posted 20mph above the 85th percentile speed. The average change in traffic speed after the signs were posted? Less than 1.5mph (yes, the decimal point belongs), regardless of whether the speed was set higher or lower.

When you lower the posted limit on a road below the 85th percentile, you simply get more violators. Of course you can't post an outrageous limit, because someone will take advantage of it, but the speed limit that works best is one that reduces the speed differential between vehicles, which is why the raised limits you mentioned in a previous post did not result in more accidents.

Sorry, to have thrown another log on the fire, but the 85th percentile speed is really meant to be taken independently of existing posted limits. And I don't agree with the "whatever the speed limit is, people will exceed it" argument. I've seen too much data that doesn't support it. Sure, you'll get some who will go nuts, but that's why you need some sort of limit at all.


Edit: Sorry Edge, I didn't meant to repeat a bunch of your points. I clicked reply and had to go get something to eat mid-post and your post showed up while I was composing.

 

Edge, PM Sent.

cydewaze ... Hey! I thought I had the last word.

We really cant do anything about the limits so I guess the discussion is moot anyway