A mid size station wagon!

We see a few wagons re-appearing. Usually labled as SUV's still. I've been expecting (hoping for a few years really) the mid size wagon format to be the next thing when SUV's burned out. Might be sooner rather than later.

 

My issue is not with SUVs. My issue is with those SUV owners that buy three tons worth of vehicle that never totes around much more than two people and some groceries, with the extent of 'offroading' limited to scuffing the tires on a curb attempting to parallel park. Their usual reasoning? "It's safe". It's well been established that SUVs are no safer than cars or minivans. Mostly these things are bought by such people with the 'bigger is better' mentality and that unspoken feeling that they want to come out ahead in a collision with smaller vehicles.

I have absolutely no problem with someone having an SUV that has plenty of opportunities to use the thing appropriately. They are perfect for farm families or those who tow boats or trailers with. They are great for those who live or often find themselves off the beaten path. Serious DIYers or contractors can choose between and SUV of a truck in many cases (or get a 'crossover').

I live near Columbia, MD, which is a haven for people practicing vehicle-size oneupmanship for no apparent reason other than ego and consumption. All too often I see a simple family of three that have a Tahoe or Suburban to haul their newborn as well as their annoying MINI-sized stroller to the mall, taking up the same proportionate space in store aisles as they do in parking lots. I often see these same people with their doors grinding against a neigboring car's as they maneuver this oversized stroller in and out of the vehicle.

I am not advocating that people try and live their lives with a MINI or similar sized car as their sole transportation. I for one could not. I have a 3/4-ton diesel truck that I use for the heavy hauling, the camper towing and bulky transporting. This used to be my primary vehicle, but I decided long ago that I would do best to have something smaller. When the MINI was released in the states, I knew I found my ideal. I am very glad I made this choice, and I knew that gas prices would be on a steep incline soon, and I was right. I plan on having another vehicle that will be very good on fuel, and the day that MINI releases a diesel model, I will sign up for one.

I will still keep the MCS and the truck, as I am fortunate enough to have the space to keep these as well as a continuing use for all three. In fact, if the "MINI D" can be tuned to MCS performance levels (it's very possible), I might grudgingly give up the MCS.

It's my belief that we have only begun to see the horrors at the gas pump. It's going to make the 70s look like a picnic (and I used to pack a meal for those times I had to sit in a line way back when).

 

It does depend upon frequence, I agree, I can only speak of my experience. I've done the math and because of the higher cost of premium gas, I pay maybe a couple of dollars a week more for gas... thats not even the cost of a Starbucks Coffee and is not going to make any difference. Therefore, regardless of hauling or not, there is virtually no difference in price for me.

Now the following may be cylical ... In the last six months, we seem to be hauling stuff constantly. Then again, since November, we have been doing substantial remodeling. Now that the weather is warmer, I need to buy a bunch of decking material. Then it off to replacing older/rotten fence posts and fencing rails. If you doing house maintenaince, it seems endless and I am not a true DIY ... just normal house maintenaince

There was a time when we had TWO 2-seater sports cars. We tried to live like that for two years. We ended up getting rid of one (and actually keeping the older of the two) because it was impossible to live like that. We DID have stuff delivered but it reached a point I couldnt even take home a simple lawn mower and that was enough. Depending upon friends with trucks, which I have done in the past, gets real old, real quick.

Today, "we", or I should say "I", have been considering getting rid of the Toyota (sometime in the next year) but the wife says emphatically NO. With two large dogs, they are at the vet (not constantly but a fair amount of time) and they simply are not going into any "nice" car. We throw them in the back of the SUV and they are cool.

Now here is the latest ... see http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12777854/site/newsweek/

of which here are some quotes ....

"At Capitol Cadillac, just inside the Beltway, SUVs are flying off the lot. Last week, former White House chief of staff Andy Card dropped by to pick up a new SRX, Caddy's midsize SUV, says dealer Daniel Jobe. But Jobe's hottest seller, by far, is the newly redesigned chrome-encrusted Cadillac Escalade, an incredible hulk that gets 13mpg in the city. "My biggest problem is not gas prices," says Jobe, "it's getting enough of these trucks. ...

some of the best-selling rides on the road today are GM's trio of beefy new SUVs—the Chevy Tahoe, the GMC Yukon and that blingy 'Slade, which saw its sales surge 127 percent last month. ...

People are not about to trade in that Hummer." Brian Dalby just traded in an SUV—for an even bigger one. "I like to look down on traffic," says the Grosse Pointe, Mich., real-estate developer, who swapped a 16mpg BMW X5 for a 15mpg Chevy Tahoe.

... Honda is cutting production of its slow-selling Accord hybrid, while scoring record sales of its SUVs and pickup trucks. "We've become a nation of truck buyers," says Honda senior vice president John Mendel. ... everyone is not going to go back into cars. People will continue to buy big vehicles." And gripe about gas prices."

For GB

"I live near Columbia, MD, which is a haven for people practicing vehicle-size oneupmanship for no apparent reason other than ego and consumption. All too often I see a simple family of three that have a Tahoe or Suburban to haul their newborn as well as their annoying MINI-sized stroller to the mall ..."

Funny you should mention that. Just pulling into a strip mall the other day, I saw NOTHING but SUVs lined up and commented about that to the wife. Your right, most of it is $$$$. They got the money and just dont care.

We dont have a true 4 x 4 and dont care to. Prior to buying ours, we traveled extensively around the country many times in sports car. One thing I wanted was a soft roader, for the dirt and gravel roads out west (driving them in a sports car just ended up with window damage, suspension worries, etc). Maybe doing easy trails in Moab. The use in the limited amount of snow we get is just a plus. I think in the last 3 years there has been an explosion of SUVs around ... one in every driveway but many of them now are soft roaders ... Jeeps seem to be less and less.

 

You are missing the point. Heating your apartment to 85 all year would be dumb.

Buying an SUV if you can afford it is not dumb. It might not be the choice YOU would make but that does not mean that everyone has the same needs in a vehicle as you.

You mention an apartment. I have a house and a few acres. My needs are different than yours. I commute to work in the MINI because I like to drive it. I have an SUV because I need it for my lifestyle (OK, a full size pickup would work for me, too). But if I had to settle for one vehicle, it would be the SUV because it can do the things the MINI can't.

A lot of people either need or (heaven forbid) want an SUV, whether it be a large, truck based model or a smaller car based model. Is it a rational decision? Probably not. But is a MINI a rational decsion? Not really. There are a lot of other small cars out there for less money/more reliable/better mileage. It's a choice people make with their money.

Remember, it's their money, their choice. Will they be sorry for the choice they made when the VISA bill comes and they can't pay for the gas they bought last month? Probably will. But that's their problem - not mine and not yours.

 

I started thinking about this in terms of "miles per dollar." Our MINI gets around 27 MPG in town. 10 gallons of premium at $3.35 per = 270 miles for $33.50, or about 8 "MPD." Our Escape gets around 18 MPG. 10 gallons of regular at $3.15 per = 180 miles for $31.50 or about 5.3 "MPD." My old F150 would have been horrible (10 MPG, 3 "MPD" ).

 

I am the original owner of a 1988 Isuzu Trooper II, a 4-cyl. 4WD SUV. When I initially bought it, I had strangers asking me about it much like the phenomena we all experience with our MINIs. It gets 16-19 mpg city/19-23 hwy. I have to haul my artwork around and have taken Troopie on numerous roadtrips over the years. As soon as I got my MINIs, hubby hijacked the Trooper and drives it daily. Although his Corvette gets better mileage, the Trooper runs on regular fuel! Spoke with hubby yesterday and he said Troopie's last fill-up cost $60! WHOA NOW!

I agree with GB...I think the price spikes have only just begun....

 

You can watch the graphs of price indexs and compair 3 places

 

This thread started with a post of DaveTinnNY getting a previous customers receipt for a $99 fill-up. If my math is correct, at $3.00/gallon, thats 33 gallons of fuel. This doesn't mean the $99 fill-up took that vehicle the same amount of miles a 13 gallon fill-up took his Mini. I don't mean to offend anyone here but allow me the following:
1. I get a overall average of 26 MPG in a "06 MCS (yes the MC gets a couple MPG/Gal more.) If gas mileage were a big consideration, I wouldn't have bought a Mini, it would have been a hybrid.
2. Two years ago my family had a "01 Exterra and "93 Prelude. My wife drives about 24K/year and wanted something that gets better MPG so we bought a "01 Geo Prism 4 door. The Exterra was only used to tow our boat or drive in snow.
3. I sold the Honda to buy a Mini. Gas mileage was about the same. Kept the Exterra to tow the boat and haul stuff that wouldn't fit in the Geo or Mini.
4. SUV's are not "dead," they are the only vehicles keeping Detroit alive. Like it or not.
5. European gas prices are higher because of tax, and only tax. the oil market is part of the world economy. Goods go to the highest bidder. Any additional cost of building or operating refineries is minimal (if any) and, I don't know for sure, transportation costs are less because Europe is closer to the Middle East and Russia.
I agree most SUV's are sold because they are "status" symbols. It's a market economy and those who can afford to go this route, so be it. They drive up the cost of gas for everyone (supply and demand.) If they ever complain about the cost of filling up, tough ****, and we should tell them so. At the same time, there is no reason to critize everyone you see driving a SUV.

 

Sorry, but screw that.

This is America. If someone wants an SUV and they'll be the only one in it 99% of the time, that's their decision. If they'll never haul a single thing with it, it's still their decision. If they'll never once take it off-road, it's still their decision. And if they want to pay for the gas to fill it, it's still their decision.

A person only needs one reason to buy an SUV: they want one. It doesn't matter why they want it. It could be because they like to sit up high. It could be because they feel safer (whether it's true or not). It could be because they like the color. It could be because they're trying to keep up with the neighbors.

The reason doesn't matter, because it's their vehicle so it's their choice.

When you decided to buy a MINI, if some stranger didn't like your reasons for wanting it, what would be your reaction? Something like "mind your own business", I bet.

They don't care if you have an "issue" with their reasons. And there's no reason that they should.

 

Here's my example:
All vehicles driven spiritedly same mix of highway/city real world MPG. The Tahoe is a neighbor's with exactly the same route to work and home.

He needs double the fuel (and $33.80) to go exactly the same distance as the MINI!

 

I will agree with you. This is also the most overused, lamest excuse in the book. You can use it to justify chain smoking, gambling, drinking, eating nothing but fast food. You can also do so for many more nobler causes.

I want to drive a Cat D90 frontend loader to work on those occasions when traffic is bad. This is America, of course.

My issue will still be with those (what I consider) lame idiots who think they should drive some behemoth just because they want to. Especially now, since I dont care to hear them biyatch about the price of freaking gasoline.

 

First off, I own a MCS and a 2005 Tahoe, and I can tell you that 12mpg would be a worst case example for the Tahoe. I get 20.5 mpg on the highway at 60-65mph . My average mpg is 16 with alot of city driving.With that said I do have a full K&N intake and B&B exhaust which bumped me up a bit. My MCS is getting in the 29mpg range at the same speeds. In my case the Tahoe is saving me $ on fuel by allowing me to bring my dogs with me all day vs going home mid day, which would double my fuel costs. When I was only running my MINI I was spending more on fuel than I do now.

This is America, I am a Veteran and I sure as hell am not going to be told by someone what kind of car I should drive. I will bet that most of those who complain about SUVs have no problem getting on a plane to travel for leisure. Ever watch a plane dumping fuel and smog? To each his own.

 

What you have written is the quintessential "American Way".

"I'll do what I want, when I want, and how I want to do it because I'm the only one that matters."

But then when things, which they have no control over, don't go their way. They decide to play the "victim" card, instead of changing how they make their "decisions".

Gas prices of gone up a lot recently. So instead of buying a more fuel efficient automobile, the general population of those who have an unnessesary SUV **** and moan about how the world is doing them a injustice. How dare someone alter their "wanted" lifestyle.

Notice how those who "need" the SUV for hauling or pulling or what have you, don't complain as much as those who have an SUV because they "want" one.

I don't think that it's the SUVs that anger people, I think it's the mantality of the majority who drive them which aggrivates others.

I am firmly convinced that America will fall just like the other greats of the world. It happened to Babylon, it happened to Palestine, it happened to Rome... it will happen to us.

And it will happen because of the mantality of America which you just wrote about.

I just hope I'm not alive to see it.

 

While we Americans are perfectly free to make our own choices, we all need to realize that our choices can negatively affect the strangers with whom we share the road.

An article in The New Yorker helped me to understand why so many people buy SUVs. Many buyers have resigned themselves to eventually being involved in a car crash, and they want to be in the biggest vehicle possible to minimize their injuries. Forget all of that stuff about defensive driving and accident avoidance. It's easier just to get an SUV that can take the punishment for you when - not if - you get into a crash.

I'm sure that the woman who let her 4,000-pound SUV careen into the back of my stopped 328i, at 25-30 MPH, must have felt that she and her child were perfectly safe in their vehicle. At the moment of impact, she was turned around, facing the back seat, feeding a snack to her child to quiet him. I wonder if she would have been lulled into that feeling of safety if she had been driving a smaller car.

I don't hate SUVs. I just wish that more SUV buyers would make informed buying decisions and accept responsibility for their safety, as well as the safety of others around them.

 

We have a winner!

 

I would never presume to tell anyone what they should buy, drive, wear, whatever. I will offer my opinion if asked, and I will continue to hold my opinions, good or bad, of what various people do, etc. That is not going to change.

As for those who use the blanket statement 'This is America', be glad that you have the freedom to make the decisions that you do. Know also that those decisions you make carry with them risks and responsibilities into the future. A lot of people made the decision to buy an SUV. The may have needed one for whatever reason(s), or they might have simply wanted one. These days, that decision of the past has current consequences. Now, I ask you, would you still support everyone's unfettered right to drive around in a gas guzzler who absolutely had no use for it's capabilities other than to haul a single person around if today it were discovered there is a huge oil deposit behind your back yard? Certainly you would not mind the installation of pumping facilities back there in order to uphold The American Dream™...

 

That's fine - you have every right to your opinion, of course. My reply to you earlier wasn't to challenge your right to an opinion. It was to point out that though you may have an "issue" (your word) with these SUV owners, it's just that - your issue. Not theirs. They don't have to give your issue a second thought. They've done nothing wrong (in the eyes of the law anyway).

I'm very glad of that, thank you.

Of course. That goes for all of our decisions, not just vehicle decisions. Everyone makes future-changing choices everyday.

If the laws keep it legal to buy a gas guzzler, then concerned people should work to change the laws. Until they change, people are free to buy those vehicles. You may not like it, and you may consider that decision irresponsible to the future, but some of things you do may strike someone else the same way.

Do you use a gas lawn mower? Maybe some clean air activist is cursing you on another web forum for not using a manual push mower instead. In one hour, a gas lawn mower puts more pollutants into the air than a car driving 100 miles on the highway. My point is that we all make our choices, and many of those choices could be better in some way.

To me it's a matter of relativity. SUVs seem wasteful to you because you get 30mpg in a MCS or 35 in an MC (or whatever your average mpg is). What would your response be if hybrid drivers getting 50mpg were damning you for your irresponsible choice of vehicle? Yes I know all hybrids don't get 50 mpg but you get my point. They're thinking that you don't "need" a gas-guzzling supercharged 168 hp engine when a 95 hp engine would do.

As for the oil deposit in my backyard? Sure I'd fight it. Anyone would. Would I blame the SUV drivers? No. If we're so desperate that we need to drill in my backyard, we would have reached that point eventually with or without SUVs. It's those damn inconsiderate people who heat their house with heating oil instead of natural gas or propane that I blame...

 

That woman was a moron, no matter what she was driving. And it wouldn't surprise me in the least if she would have done the same thing in a smaller car. I've seen people do things just as stupid as that (or more) driving smaller cars. But those people don't provide convenient ammunition for the war on SUVs.

 

Greatbear - one more thing.

I wish to apologize to you for my first reply. The "screw that" comment was uncalled for. I can usually take an opposing viewpoint from someone without being that harsh, and I regret it.

 

Taking your points out of order

#2 ... I consider myself in this bucket. The cost difference is trivial. I need it to haul stuff. To be blunt, it wouldn matter how high gas goes, I'd still keep it simply because the price differential is so small (not talking about those getting 10 mpg). And I am not complaining about the price since everyone pays about the same, more or less.

#1 You just described the history of America. For a short course

1. Move over NE Indians, we are landing (The pilgrims)
2. Get out all you plains indians and take some smallpox blankets with you (1800s America)
3. It's MINE, ALL MINE (Manifest Destiny)
4. Gimme the Phillipines (Spanish American War)
5. You cant have Korea or Vietnam (Dominoe Theory)

And so forth without getting political. Its inherent throughout our history. Oh, lets not forget "Stay on your side of the Pond" (Monroe Doctrine)

#3. If history repeats itself, and it usually does, maybe true.

 

This frames perfectly a situation that a friend of mine went through a few years ago. This man was the type who was essentially wedded to his cell phone for personal and business reasons. Living in a rural area, he was always complaining about dropped calls, constantly calling (and even switching) service providers, exchanging phones, etc. The Department Of Irony stepped in and one day the cell phone company installed a new tower. Yes, it was near his house, on an area zoned commercial, and despite the complaints of he and his neighbors, the tower was erected. No more dropped calls, but no more idyllic rural character either.

Sadly, yes, I do use a gas powered mower to cut my grass. It's not easy mowing two acres with a push mower. I do, however, keep all the gas powered lawn and garden stuff in optimum tune, and use a push mower for trimming. I try to make the most informed decisions when I can, and by keeping everything I have in good tune, I save myself money with the added benefit of easing the environmental burden I might cause. People might or might not agree with my various positions, nor me to theirs, but at least for me, I try to be as unobtrusive as I can be. It benefits me in the long run, as it does others (whether they realize it or not).

So far, no one has complained about my occasional decision to go out to the driveway for the morning paper dressed in nothing but my civvies. Gotta love these nice warm spring days.

 

No offense taken, but thanks all the same. You know me, I love a good *environmental* discussion.

 

Sometimes people can only see whats inside their box. Looking outside of their box is almost impossible. I am sure the SUV forums laugh at the thought of MINI owners and make fun of us just as well ...

AND THAT is what makes America great.

Freedom to choose.

 

That is a good story. In my area, they've hidden cell phone towers in places like church steeples. Very clever way to keep that rural character.

Oops - I didn't mean to imply that I am anti-gas mower (I have one myself). It was just the first example that came to mind of something many people use that a select group might object to.

Anyhoo, I just get tired of the anti-SUV bandwagon sometimes. My wife averages 20 mpg in her '98 Grand Cherokee (which she'd wanted for 10 years and bought before the SUV craze even started), and that's better mileage than many pickups, cadillac-type boats, and sportscars on the market but no one ever seems to gripe about those vehicles' mileage, or the fact that most pickups rarely have anything in the bed, and most sportscars never see the track.

 

All gas talk aside, is anyone else tired of being almost run over by Escalades? (driving or not!)

Yes, I did get bumped by an escalade today. I was standing in a non parking spot, you know, those big yellow dashed lines, and someone decided they could back their Escalade in. My back was to the truck, and I only got bumped, but still...seriously...

Ok, back to your regularly scheduled gas talk.