R50/53 TIME Magazine shows MCS vs SUV
3rd Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 290
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From: Nashville, TN
Whew! Some heavy stuff here. BTW, the Onion link was hilarious!
I tend to think that people drive SUVs for the wrong reasons and I get annoyed by them for these reasons, here are just a few:
1. I am unable to see around them in traffic.
2. People who drive them think they're indestructible.
3. People who drive them will gladly cut anyone off/etc because after all, they're driving a "massive, indestructable vehicle."
I've even thought that I need to buy an SUV just to see around the other SUVs. That's not to say that people in non-SUVs don't drive idiotic. They do. But the SUVs are gaining more notice due to every manufacturer producing these behemoths. They have their place, but does EVERYONE need to own one? That's my .02....
_________________
'03 IB/W MCS ~~ born 1/17 ~~ picked it up 2/18 ~~ very happy!
I tend to think that people drive SUVs for the wrong reasons and I get annoyed by them for these reasons, here are just a few:
1. I am unable to see around them in traffic.
2. People who drive them think they're indestructible.
3. People who drive them will gladly cut anyone off/etc because after all, they're driving a "massive, indestructable vehicle."
I've even thought that I need to buy an SUV just to see around the other SUVs. That's not to say that people in non-SUVs don't drive idiotic. They do. But the SUVs are gaining more notice due to every manufacturer producing these behemoths. They have their place, but does EVERYONE need to own one? That's my .02....
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'03 IB/W MCS ~~ born 1/17 ~~ picked it up 2/18 ~~ very happy!
2nd Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 114
Likes: 0
>>HarryC
>>My philosophy: Right tool for the right job. For some, an SUV makes sense, but for others, its a fashion statement. Do I support people's right to buy them? Absolutely. Do I think the vast majority of those folks are poseurs? Absolutely.
I agree.
>>RCristiano
>>Who here lived in this huge blizzard over in the northeast? Tell me how well your mini did in that snow while those SUVs drove past you effortlessly.
Yeah right, like any Subaru or car fitted with snow tires couldn't do the same thing.
Whatever. It's fun to see them still pumping that 30 gallon tank full as you pull out in half the time (and money).
>>My philosophy: Right tool for the right job. For some, an SUV makes sense, but for others, its a fashion statement. Do I support people's right to buy them? Absolutely. Do I think the vast majority of those folks are poseurs? Absolutely.
I agree.
>>RCristiano
>>Who here lived in this huge blizzard over in the northeast? Tell me how well your mini did in that snow while those SUVs drove past you effortlessly.
Yeah right, like any Subaru or car fitted with snow tires couldn't do the same thing.
Whatever. It's fun to see them still pumping that 30 gallon tank full as you pull out in half the time (and money).
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 914
Likes: 2
From: des moines, iowa
On a recent trip to Kansas city we were fortunate enough to drive our MC through a blizzard. We had little trouble at all. on our return trip we counted 28 vehicles in the ditch between the Missouri border and Des Moines. The majority of these were large 4 wheel drive monsters, that if driven correctly should have never found the ditch. Also several rear wheel drive luxury cars. We had quite a laugh as these 4X4 monsters went screeming by us only to be passed by us, as they sat stranded talking on there cell phones.
RAT
RAT
4th Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
From: Dublin, NH
Problems in the snow? not really, I drove home from North Jersey to Bucks county PA during that last bad snowstorm we had. I found that disabling the DSC was necessary and for next winter I plan on getting another set of wheels with snow tires because the performance tires aren't great but I still made it home. I also have a Dodge Ram 1500 which I prefer to drive in the snow simply because of the ground clearance. (and right now the tires but a set of snow tires will fix that) Saying you need an SUV to go to the grocery store during a blizzard is rediculous. I'm sure most SUV drivers decided they'd rather stay home during the blizzard and canceled their plans.
My biggest problem with SUVs is that people buy them and don't know how to drive them.... what? it doesn't handle like a car? It boggles my mind how people flip them... I actually had someone tell me that you can't go fast around the corner in their jeep because it will flip... Oh really? I was going to do 90mph around a corner.
Having an SUV does not mean you can *STOP* in snowy/icy conditions. That means you shouldn't go as fast as you want in the snow. If the ground is icy all 4 wheels will slide and skid if you try to stop. Just because it's easier to accelerate in bad conditions doesn't mean you should. I can't tell you how many SUVs flew past me in the snow.... could I have gone 60 in a 55, sure but due to the blizzard conditions I decided to take it at about 45-50 on the highway and leave plenty of room in front of me unlike the SUV riding the tail of the person in front of them.
I will say fuel economy was a slight consideration in getting the MINI. Overall I got it because it was fun to drive. Typically I just have my Fiancee and myself in the car so the MINI is perfect. I still get great gas mileage. However, once we get married and start having kids, we will need a bigger vehicle. Jeep is coming out with a diesel Liberty which would be nice but do you really need an expidition or whatever the latest biggest vehicle out there is? Also how many people use all those seats? Typicall on the road I see these monster vehicles with 1 person in them... who would buy that for a daily commuter vehicle? Typically the vehicles I see with lots of kids in them are minivans.
Fact is SUVs have become a status symbol and the bigger you vehicle the higer your status. (or so it goes) They sit in the left hand lane and cut people off and do pretty much whatever they want. They park crooked and essentially take up two parking spaces and are generally inconsiderate. The biggest SUV I would ever get would be a Jeep Liberty or a Nissan Exterra. I do a lot of outdoor stuff and do occasionally go offroad (in my 2wd truck) with no problems.
Yeah I floor my MINI a lot but I still get better mileage than in my truck. I think the most optimistic mpg on my truck is about 13.... If my MINI was loaded I think it would still get better mileage. To me, a pickup is very useful (even got me a free trip to san diego) and some of the smaller SUVs can be useful as well but a hummer, expedition, escalade etc... are just a waste of materials, gas, road and space. There only purpose is to show that "mine's bigger than yours." I say, "That's nice, now get out of my way!"
-Chris
My biggest problem with SUVs is that people buy them and don't know how to drive them.... what? it doesn't handle like a car? It boggles my mind how people flip them... I actually had someone tell me that you can't go fast around the corner in their jeep because it will flip... Oh really? I was going to do 90mph around a corner.
Having an SUV does not mean you can *STOP* in snowy/icy conditions. That means you shouldn't go as fast as you want in the snow. If the ground is icy all 4 wheels will slide and skid if you try to stop. Just because it's easier to accelerate in bad conditions doesn't mean you should. I can't tell you how many SUVs flew past me in the snow.... could I have gone 60 in a 55, sure but due to the blizzard conditions I decided to take it at about 45-50 on the highway and leave plenty of room in front of me unlike the SUV riding the tail of the person in front of them.
I will say fuel economy was a slight consideration in getting the MINI. Overall I got it because it was fun to drive. Typically I just have my Fiancee and myself in the car so the MINI is perfect. I still get great gas mileage. However, once we get married and start having kids, we will need a bigger vehicle. Jeep is coming out with a diesel Liberty which would be nice but do you really need an expidition or whatever the latest biggest vehicle out there is? Also how many people use all those seats? Typicall on the road I see these monster vehicles with 1 person in them... who would buy that for a daily commuter vehicle? Typically the vehicles I see with lots of kids in them are minivans.
Fact is SUVs have become a status symbol and the bigger you vehicle the higer your status. (or so it goes) They sit in the left hand lane and cut people off and do pretty much whatever they want. They park crooked and essentially take up two parking spaces and are generally inconsiderate. The biggest SUV I would ever get would be a Jeep Liberty or a Nissan Exterra. I do a lot of outdoor stuff and do occasionally go offroad (in my 2wd truck) with no problems.
Yeah I floor my MINI a lot but I still get better mileage than in my truck. I think the most optimistic mpg on my truck is about 13.... If my MINI was loaded I think it would still get better mileage. To me, a pickup is very useful (even got me a free trip to san diego) and some of the smaller SUVs can be useful as well but a hummer, expedition, escalade etc... are just a waste of materials, gas, road and space. There only purpose is to show that "mine's bigger than yours." I say, "That's nice, now get out of my way!"
-Chris
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,258
Likes: 0
From: Portland OR
XP, you say "socialism" is when "you want to limit others freedom for the good of the society" .... so the conservative view of abortion is now socialist, as they are doing it for the "moral" good of the masses?
It's all about who's defining "good". I guess to liberals, taking away abortion would be bad. To conservatives it would be good. As you can see, limiting freedom for the "good" of the population is NOT socialism. Your high school history teacher is rolling over in her grave.
I have to agree with those saying it's about being aware, not limiting. I wouldn't want someone to take away my MINI cause it's small, so being big should have the same right. We can make it a point though to keep these big rigs for those that really need them, not Susie Jo down the street taking her 1 child to class.
Am I the only one who remembers everyone doing just fine with station wagens in the past? What happened??
R
It's all about who's defining "good". I guess to liberals, taking away abortion would be bad. To conservatives it would be good. As you can see, limiting freedom for the "good" of the population is NOT socialism. Your high school history teacher is rolling over in her grave.
I have to agree with those saying it's about being aware, not limiting. I wouldn't want someone to take away my MINI cause it's small, so being big should have the same right. We can make it a point though to keep these big rigs for those that really need them, not Susie Jo down the street taking her 1 child to class.
Am I the only one who remembers everyone doing just fine with station wagens in the past? What happened??
R
6th Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,265
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From: Dunedin, FL, USA
I hate SUVs as much as or more than the average MINI owner and the "SUV backlash" motto is great, but coming from a comany who also builds SUVs and large cars in general it just doesn't have much impact. Previous to BMW ownership the Mini brand was part of Rover (another SUV-building company). It's kind of like if Mazda (which is owned by Ford) had a motto like let the smog-producing Diesel engine retaliation begin!
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 89
Likes: 0
[B]Note - there is no new information in this post.[B]
You know, after reading this entire thread (and I really need to get a life apparantly
), I think it boils down to the snowboard connundrum.
I started snowboarding around 1986. Back then, (and still now) I heard so many complaints about how they should be banned. The reasons were generally along the lines of:
1) Lack of control.
2) Obnoxious people doing obnoxious things.
3) They scrape the snow off the mountain.
Each can be easily mapped to the main complaints of SUVs, poor driving characteristics, bad drivers and enefficient use of resources.
The reality for snowboards (and SUVs) is:
1) Simply wrong. Each excel at different tasks, but both exceed any measure of minimum control requirements to safely navigate a hill if the operator is adequately skilled. Different handling, but perfectly adequate. On the same token, an SUV doesn't drive like a MINI, nor should it, but it is not unsafe by nature when respected for its differences. Most control issues can be traced back to the driver, so on to point 2.
2) Unfortunately, snowboarding naturally attracted all the people who were doing obnoxious things on skis. Getting rid of a snowboard wouldn't help the "selfish person problem" at all. Unfortunately for the sport, they were very identifiable and so easy to complain about. Similarly, poor SUV drivers would be driving other cars just as poorly. Tailgating, cutting people off, whatever your complaint. Its just that the SUV is more easilly identified in the standout SUV. And I suspect there is also the same psychology that brings the most obnoxious amoung us to the SUV. Let me emphasize, not everyone in an SUV or on a snowboard is obnoxious.
3) (this is a bit of a stretch, I realize) Snow scraping is not a virtue of snowboarding. It's a virtue of bad technique. SUVs do use more gas, but there is a technique issue that is significant. Drive your MINI hammer down and you use more gas. Drive your SUV conservatively and you use less gas. Use your SUV for SUV like tasks and you are significantly reducing your net strain on the resources. Perhaps the Super SUVs like the Hummer or Navigator can't ever rationalize their consumption, but there are many more practical trucks and vans that are being lumped in here.
I have 2 cars. I drive a MINI alone to work every day and that is perfect for me. My wife drives our VW Eurovan around. It is too big, but we use it for its purpose. We haul kids. We haul furniture and stuff. We pack the car for extended trips. My MINI gets most of the miles, the van gets round the town and hauling/long trip duty. It makes sense for us.
Wactuary
You know, after reading this entire thread (and I really need to get a life apparantly
), I think it boils down to the snowboard connundrum.I started snowboarding around 1986. Back then, (and still now) I heard so many complaints about how they should be banned. The reasons were generally along the lines of:
1) Lack of control.
2) Obnoxious people doing obnoxious things.
3) They scrape the snow off the mountain.
Each can be easily mapped to the main complaints of SUVs, poor driving characteristics, bad drivers and enefficient use of resources.
The reality for snowboards (and SUVs) is:
1) Simply wrong. Each excel at different tasks, but both exceed any measure of minimum control requirements to safely navigate a hill if the operator is adequately skilled. Different handling, but perfectly adequate. On the same token, an SUV doesn't drive like a MINI, nor should it, but it is not unsafe by nature when respected for its differences. Most control issues can be traced back to the driver, so on to point 2.
2) Unfortunately, snowboarding naturally attracted all the people who were doing obnoxious things on skis. Getting rid of a snowboard wouldn't help the "selfish person problem" at all. Unfortunately for the sport, they were very identifiable and so easy to complain about. Similarly, poor SUV drivers would be driving other cars just as poorly. Tailgating, cutting people off, whatever your complaint. Its just that the SUV is more easilly identified in the standout SUV. And I suspect there is also the same psychology that brings the most obnoxious amoung us to the SUV. Let me emphasize, not everyone in an SUV or on a snowboard is obnoxious.
3) (this is a bit of a stretch, I realize) Snow scraping is not a virtue of snowboarding. It's a virtue of bad technique. SUVs do use more gas, but there is a technique issue that is significant. Drive your MINI hammer down and you use more gas. Drive your SUV conservatively and you use less gas. Use your SUV for SUV like tasks and you are significantly reducing your net strain on the resources. Perhaps the Super SUVs like the Hummer or Navigator can't ever rationalize their consumption, but there are many more practical trucks and vans that are being lumped in here.
I have 2 cars. I drive a MINI alone to work every day and that is perfect for me. My wife drives our VW Eurovan around. It is too big, but we use it for its purpose. We haul kids. We haul furniture and stuff. We pack the car for extended trips. My MINI gets most of the miles, the van gets round the town and hauling/long trip duty. It makes sense for us.
Wactuary
OVERDRIVE
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,365
Likes: 2
From: Yinzer in Exile
<<Who here lived in this huge blizzard over in the northeast? Tell me how well your mini did in that snow while those SUVs drove past you effortlessly. >>
....actually, a Ford F-150 that was backsliding down my hill had to pause and let me and my MINI pass him. He continued sliding, I drank some hot chocolate. Granted I know it's not an SUV but along those lines...
~Kelley
....actually, a Ford F-150 that was backsliding down my hill had to pause and let me and my MINI pass him. He continued sliding, I drank some hot chocolate. Granted I know it's not an SUV but along those lines...
~Kelley
2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 88
Likes: 0
From: SF Bay Area
>>The reality for snowboards (and SUVs)
The negative impact of small trucks (SUVs and pickups) is much more profound, if only because of the devastating effect they have on others. For every SUV driver killed in a side-impact crash, 16 car drivers die. For every pickup truck driver killed, 26 car drivers die. I can't think of anything that parallels this. It's the perceived attitude of drivers of these vehicles that it's okay to destroy everything around them as long as they themselves are safe that rubs many people the wrong way.
I would rather have a reckless driver in a standard-sized auto than a utility vehicle.
That aside, I think the demand is either at or has already reached its peak for SUVs. There is just too much baggage. People don't want to be stigmatized. I welcome with open arms the new wave of crossover vehicles.
The negative impact of small trucks (SUVs and pickups) is much more profound, if only because of the devastating effect they have on others. For every SUV driver killed in a side-impact crash, 16 car drivers die. For every pickup truck driver killed, 26 car drivers die. I can't think of anything that parallels this. It's the perceived attitude of drivers of these vehicles that it's okay to destroy everything around them as long as they themselves are safe that rubs many people the wrong way.
I would rather have a reckless driver in a standard-sized auto than a utility vehicle.
That aside, I think the demand is either at or has already reached its peak for SUVs. There is just too much baggage. People don't want to be stigmatized. I welcome with open arms the new wave of crossover vehicles.
4th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 382
Likes: 0
From: Alaska
Bla Bla Bla. The Mini is a great car, but not ideal for some situations. ex. I lived in Wyoming for a few years. A car was no good for me there. Too much snow and ice. Ya front wheel drive is great but not as good as my F-240 4x4. And it did have the 351 clev in it. I got probably 8 mpg. So what, I got done what was needed. Try to haul around 6 bails of hey with a Mini. I didn't haul hey all the time, but when I had to the equipment was there.
Seems everyone apposed to SUVs keeps saying the same thing. You all have very valid points, on most SUVs. I agree that the Navigator and Caddy's and Fords are a bit excessive. But what about the smart SUVs. The small ones that do a great job. Honda makes great SUVs. The CR-V is set on an Accord frame. It is still low to the ground and it does not have wide tires. The transmissions are wonderfull. Oh, and by the way, Hondas are all over Europe. They do very well on Autobahns. My wife drives hers on the A-6 every day at speeds over 90 mph. She hasn't had a problem yet.
I think some Mini drivers are fools as well. but I don't say they shouldn't be able to drive the Mini. I think that we should take away their license to drive any car. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" or "SUVs don't drive like idiots, people drive like idiots".
Just because you only see one person in an SUV doesn't mean that they are the only user of the vehicle. It just means that others are not in the vehicle at that time. I don't think that anyone in an SUV must prove themselves to anyone, including us, that they use their vehicle for its intended purpose.
Im just rambling now...shutting up...sorry
Frank
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Seems everyone apposed to SUVs keeps saying the same thing. You all have very valid points, on most SUVs. I agree that the Navigator and Caddy's and Fords are a bit excessive. But what about the smart SUVs. The small ones that do a great job. Honda makes great SUVs. The CR-V is set on an Accord frame. It is still low to the ground and it does not have wide tires. The transmissions are wonderfull. Oh, and by the way, Hondas are all over Europe. They do very well on Autobahns. My wife drives hers on the A-6 every day at speeds over 90 mph. She hasn't had a problem yet.
I think some Mini drivers are fools as well. but I don't say they shouldn't be able to drive the Mini. I think that we should take away their license to drive any car. "Guns don't kill people, people kill people" or "SUVs don't drive like idiots, people drive like idiots".
Just because you only see one person in an SUV doesn't mean that they are the only user of the vehicle. It just means that others are not in the vehicle at that time. I don't think that anyone in an SUV must prove themselves to anyone, including us, that they use their vehicle for its intended purpose.
Im just rambling now...shutting up...sorry
Frank
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