I have both, and have been driving in slippery Minnesota winter conditions for about a month.

Yes, this is disconcerting. It feels like the car is going to stall, you're not sure whether to feather it or floor it. The answer I think is 'do nothing', but the instinct from driving non-traction control cars is to give it some gas because you don't want to lose momentum and 'slip down'.

I would say it activates well before the car is out of control. It seems like it activates any time you have front wheelslip, which is often in limited traction situations. It almost always interjects in situations where you'd use throttle and countersteer. Your statement may be true for dry pavement, I've never had it activate in that situation.

 

That's because you are still talking about ASC+T.

DSC is a very different beast. I have only had it activate once and I seriously scared me. Taking an offramp at a typical 50 or so - it must have been greasy or something ... suddenly the car "kicked" dramatically and sort of leapt sideways a bit - that was the DSC detecting and correcting for slip. Not nice. But the alternative was probably not nice either.

 

I'll give you deer and moose, maybe black ice, though I've never had ice I couldn't see on the road before if I was looking for it when I lived in upstate NY.

Small animals, you run them over. I hate to say that, and we instinctually want to stop or veer but that's not what you should do. Might cause vehicle damage, but shouldn't result in injury to you. Really you're supposed to hit the bigs ones as well.

The rest are a person's fault, maybe not you the driver, but another persons. They aren't things that are accidents, just someone being careless.

I don't think anyone thinks they can avoid all "accidents" but the point is if you are attentive and focusing on the task at hand you will have few if any instances where DSC is the determing factor between life and death. It's not even about skill, just pay attention. Not to say DSC is bad, but unless you have a highly rollable vehicle probably not providing much safety. The best investment you could make for safety would be a beefed up roll cage, 5 points, helmet and a fire retardant suit. It's not DSC that saves race car drivers lives.

 

I give you these three. The rest are your fault

For example, if it snowing and a wind gust comes up ... cmon, you know its a storm ... wind happens ... lack of experience on your part. etc. etc etc.

 

Not in my experience, only with the problem children. The main point of instruction is to teach people how to recognize and avoid making mistakes in the first place and teach how to correct for them when the inevitable happens. Everyone from Alonso on down makes mistakes. Its what you do immediately after that first mistake that will determine how you fare. Its almost never is one mistake that causes a problem. Its a series of them. Theres nothing deadly about turning in early, for example. Whats deadly is not recognising it instantly and adjusting your line and speed accordingly.
You mean like BMW? Isn't DSC optional?
I don't think I read that anywhere in the above posts. I certainly didnt say it. If I might take the liberty of summing up the anti-DSC POV, we're saying that DSC is not required on a car of the MINIs capabilities if one drives with a modicum of prudence. What were saying is, "Throw down your crutches Tiny Tim! You CAN walk!" Virtually anyone can be a good driver but it means investing some time and energy; simply buying a device certainly won't make this happen. Let us not forget that DSC lives in the recent past, a good driver lives in the future.

So lets state my belief, and thats all it is, as plain as I can possibly make it, so you won't misunderstand me.

1) There is nothing wrong with getting DSC. There are circumstances where indeed, it can make a positive difference. Its probably desirable for inexperienced drivers or those with little confidence in their skills or who fear the act of driving. It can also save those with a BIT more confidence than skill.
2) While DSC has benefits in some situations, it is not an all knowing infallible device that will be able to intercede to make everything OK if your just plain being stupid. In the end, for drivers to avoid accidents, they have to be sensitive to there surrounding and drive to conditions.
3) If you buy a DSC equipped car thinking that you can drive faster because you've got your electronic buddy riding shotgun for you, you're just as likely to find yourself upside down as in a car without it. The only difference is you'll likely be going faster at the time. All cars have limits with or without DSC, MINIs are exceptionally high for a street car; if you exceed them, its best to know what your doing.
4) As evidence that the above is a true consider that every manufacturer that offers these devices includes words to the effect that DSC "can't overcome the laws of physics...blah, blah, blah."
5) Its no great miracle to become a good driver. Attending a couple of car control clinics might not prep you to be next years ALMs champ, but it will make a world of difference in how you approach driving. At $25-35 a day through BMWCCA or other sports car clubs there is absolutely no excuse for not attending. Do it. It may save your life. You'll likely have the most fun you've ever had in a car.
6) Life, particularly behind the wheel, is punctuated by a series of mistakes. (Take my first marriage for example, I doubt DSC could have saved that train wreck ) Perhaps DSC does indeed raise the bar for some. OTOH, simply raising the bar is no guarantee you won't smack your head on it if your not paying attention.

 

You might be right. I've had it do it while decelerating, which I wouldn't think would be traction control, but I might be wrong.

 

Well said RJ

 

In reference to my statement of "I thought one of the main points of driving instruction is to get people to realize that they are not as good a driver as they think they are."

I was trying for more of a "the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know" style, not the "problem child" who things they know everything when they really don't.

I've been to a few of those things.

I'd estimate that I have 87,500 miles on my MINI with DSC on, and ~500 miles with DSC off while autocrossing, taking car control clinics, on the track at HPDE events, and a few time trial track events.

All I know is I'd feel really stupid if I damaged my car on the street with the DSC turned off. And I don't feel DSC in invasive / intrusive / whatever during my day to day driving.

 

Fair and true enough.
That wasn't directed at you, your sig makes it clear you've been around, but to rather to our vast audience of lurkers present and future who perhaps might wonder what the heck all the fuss is about.

 

This is 200% golden advice

In the recent snow storms up here, what cars do you see in the ditches most - four/all wheel drive trucks/suvs/etc. The folks think they're OK with all the cars features then when they discover they aren't, they're going too quick to do anything about it.


GBMINI has DSC - not really because I expect to use it but because for the few $$$ extra on the car price, I'd hate to ever one day actually smash the car and think "if only I'd got DSC ..." (of course it might have made no difference, but your conscience doesn't know that!)


In the end, driver skill is #1 - know your car and know the conditions. After that probably tires come #2; the rest (LSD, DSC, etc) is way down the list

 

nope. If anything, it'll let you pull out faster.

 

I ordered both on my '05 MCS knowing I have yet to attend a driving course
and knowing there are situations where the "chip" electronics will respond MUCH faster than my body. 25 years of driving various vehicles from VW Rabbits to 60,000lb crash fire fighting vehicles to my beloved MCS has proven that to me. The two suicidal deer and the turkey through the windshield (unfrozen) have also reinforced that feeling. XENONS don't hurt either in that department to SEE the nutty creautures lurking in the dark. As for LSD/DSC/ABS/CBC/ASC+T/HDTV... Glad I have it all and I'd LOVE to attend a driving course some day. I know I'm a decent driver just not the best I can be. Yet.
Dave

 

My understanding (delivery this week I hope) is that LSD has an effect of "toning down" the ATC, and possibly the DSC. Basically, having both of them will let you drive the car such that the LSD is actually making a difference before traction control software kicks in.

 

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is resale value of the car based on options.

Not everyone cares about this since some people drive cars until they have no resale value, but for those that do plan on trading or selling the car in 4 or 5 years it can be important to get options that will be attractive to others in the future.

For instance, buying a car with out AC or power windows to save money (I'm sure that there are at least a few cars out there where this is possible). If you live here (DC Metro) you'll take an hit on resale value that may or may not work out to the amount you saved. Similar to buying a car with a custom paint job that everyone else goes "ewww" when they see it.

Like I said, this isn't always a concern since some plan on keeping the car so long that it doesn't make a difference.


The other thing I might consider, is that as cars become more computerized, some have the equivilant of a "black box" (big thing over the Corvette a few years ago when customers found out I think). I'm not sure how much info the MINI retains in a crash, but it is posible that if you were involved in a crash, and the police were able to pull the information out of your car. What would your insurance company do if they found that you were driving with DSC turned off? Would the court consider it contributory negligence? I believe (but would have to look it up) that the court battles have already been fought over who "owns" that information.


Personally, I think that DSC does a good job. I learned to drive (like I most people here) before ABS, traction control, airbags etc. But at this point I think that anyone who still believes that they can outbrake the current generation ABS in a true panic/emergency situation is fooling themselves.

Some complain that the systems are "intrusive". However I would just say that your skills are outdated, and that taking some time to learn the new systems, and how they react, would change your mind. I would argue that ABS, traction control, stability management, are as much for the safety of those OUTSIDE of your car as for you. Obviously nothing will take the place of a skilled driver, who is 100% focused on driving, and is 100% situationally aware. No one is ever 100%, 100% of the time. I'm a helicopter pilot, and let me tell you, it puts you on another level of paying attention, but even in the old, bare-bones aircraft I fly, there is enough going on that you can't see everything at once and sooner or later you make a bone head move. It's luck that keeps the bone head move from killing someone.

EDIT: I just re-read this post and it seems a little preachy to me. Sorry 'bout that, chalk it up to a grumpy Monday morning where I got cut off by everyone in Northern Va I'll leave the post alone, but hope that no one gets offended by it, that was not my intention. Happy Motoring

 

Ain't that the TRUTH??