But other than the Corvette (we own one, too), the majority of the domestic cars are so dang UGLY!


Clover

 

Mike, you talking about the Chevy Corvette, one of the best cars Detroit has ever made since 1953. Corvettes have been largerly inmune to the customary rebates and high depreciation of its domestic breathen.

You want the best kept secret in modern day RWD, V8 coupes? The 2005 Australian built Pontiac GTO (Holden Monaro CV8). 400HP 5.7L V8 (same engine as the Corvette), slick 6-speed manual, world class interior, fit and finish for under $30K and comfortable room for 4. This car is the ultimate street "sleeper".

When gas prices hit $3K watch sales and asking prices of these thirsty behemoths fall like a brick.

Too bad Detroit has educated the American consumer to look at their cars only when heavy rebates and discounts are attached to them. Detroit has done it to themselves. No sane human being will ever pay sticker for an American car, with the exception of the Corvette and the "exotic" Ford GT.

 

Ah .. the GTO... problem is Holden made the car for Aussie roads.. the control arms and suspension pieces are iron and heavy as hell... handles like a whale... especially after the Z.
Still a fast car for sure... but lacking in character.
I check them all out... the mini is my 35th car in as many years... I love cars and want to drive as many as I can while I'm still on this planet..

 

Perception and retaining value I'll give you. But really value is also heavily tied into perception. My 05 Mustang is my third mustang and my 4th Ford. I have a peice of my convertible latch that is a tad lose and it's being replaced tomorrow under warranty. Out of my FOUR Fords, this is the FIRST warranty work I've ever needed. How's that for quality? Oh - how many times did I use my MINI's warranty? TRY 15 TIMES! And that's an exact number - NOT an exaggeration. And I still absolutely love my MINI. I don't think quality is as big a problem as people think with Fords or other american cars. I think the problem is not the quality but the lack of love for their ordinary car. If my MINI was any other car I would have gotten rid of it and swore off the company b/c of all the repairs it needed. But I've fallen for the car in a big way - sort of like how you might fall for a pet and put up with a lot of "crap" from it. Whereas if you adopt a pet and don't get a chance to really love it, if it causes a lot of problems you may pass it along to someone else. I put up with the MINI's quality problems b/c the car is incredible and like nothing out there. IMO and from my experience Ford quality can't be compared to MINI's b/c they're not even in the same ballpark. And that's b/c Ford's quality blows MINI's away (and the same for BMW from what I've seen personally). What saves the MINI is the great design of the car, the fun to drive factor and basically their marketing campaign. It's not like they are producing superior quality cars by any means.

 

Here is my idea of bookends.
I shot this picture last night at the Solon Ohio Tuesday Night Cruise.
'05 MINI Cooper-S (mine) and a Superformance AC Cobra (nice guy we parked next to)
The Cobra owner told me he gets about 20MPG in the Cobra on the highway, in 5th gear- overdrive with a high performance 351W. The Cobra, fiberglass, weighs in at about 2,400 pounds ...200 pounds less then the MINI but the MINI is a much much safer car.
Cheers!
Dave

 

You are the first human being that I have heard of never having any quality issues with a Ford/domestic product

Face it Greatgro, you are in an inmense minority of Ford owners that have never experienced the "goodness" of Ford cost cutting, lousy engineering and greedy dealerships. For that I admire your luck. Maybe Mustangs are the least problematic cars along the lines of Crown Victorias (But those explode on rear contact just like the Pintos ) but if you ever experienced the pleasures of owning a Taurus, Tempo, Aerostar, etc, etc you'll probaly better understand where I am coming from.

To say that Ford quality is better than a BMW/MINI or even a Japanese car is an oxymoron. Even Bill Ford admitted a couple of years ago that Toyota makes better quality cars than Ford ---> Read I am clueless as I can be

Ford has botched so many new product releases that they simply could not afford to mess up the launch of the new Mustang and so far I have no heard of any recalls due to QC f***ups. Remeber the Focus? Like 50 recalls since it was introduced in 1999. The Thunderbird? Another royal screw up in the beginning.

I admit they seem to be putting their act together. Believe me, I think the new Mustang is a gorgeous car, but just because it has the blue oval affixed in the back and its made by Ford and sold and serviced by a Ford dealership, no thanks I'll pass.

See, the problem with Detroit is much more than meets the eye. For 20+ years they produced utter garbage and now that they are launching really "gotta have" and interesting products, worth putting on any shopping list, no ones believes their transformation. They have lost a generation or two to Japanese and European imports. It will take Detroit another 10-20 years to bring back all those customers (Like me) fed up with their shitty quality and service and to then again foster a new generation to again look at Detroit products as a viable alternative to the fierce Asian/Euro competition.

I am glad that your Mustangs have been rock solid and sincerely hope that your new gorgeous convertible proves to be another troublefree first year design. But then again you are in the inmense minority of happy and loyal Ford "Non-truck" owners.

Conversely, my 3 new MINIs to date have been rock solid reliable. My 5 month '05 MCS has not been back to the dealer for anything since I took it home on March 20th. That's quality!

 

I currently drive a Ford Taurus and I fekin' hate it!

I'm just glad I wisened up and stopped pouring my money into this lousy piece of sh*t, to save it for the downpayment on my MINI. Only a couple more weeks 'till I'm free from the burden of the Ford!

On a fair note, they're decent cars for the first couple years. It's just once they pass the age of 3 that they start to fall to pieces.

 

Do you want lots of hp and a reliable vehicle? Chrysler SRT-6



Dimensions Exterior Length: 159.8 in. Width: 69.5 in. Height: 51.5 in. Wheel Base: 94.5 in. Ground Clearance: 4.9 in. Curb Weight: 3240 lbs. Interior Front Head Room: 36.9 in. Front Hip Room: 53.3 in. Front Shoulder Room: 52.7 in. Front Leg Room: 42.7 in. Luggage Capacity: 7.6 cu. ft. Maximum Cargo Capacity: 8 cu. ft. Maximum Seating: 2 Performance Data Performance Base Number of Cylinders: 6 Base Engine Size: 3.2 liters Base Engine Type: V6 Horsepower: 330 hp Max Horsepower: 6100 rpm Torque: 310 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 3500 rpm Drive Type: RWD Turning Circle: 32.2 ft.
Fuel Data Fuel Fuel Tank Capacity: 15.9 gal. EPA Mileage Estimates: (City/Highway) Automatic: : 17 mpg / 24 mpg Range in Miles: (City/Highway) Automatic: 270.3 mi. / 381.6 mi.

 

you can, but they are only going to build 15-20 of them at 3/4 mil a pop!

 

you waved him down to come park next to you, didnt you dave? lol

you gotta stop bugging thos cobra guys, NO they wont let you drive it!!!

 

Why not? they can trade for a time. Who can reject an invitation to drive a fun and exciting little car?

Cobra an MINI of course .

Btw, who is selling the new built cobras?

 

new built GT40's. i think they are the exact replicas of the 66 lemans cars.

who was it...... i saw it in hot rod or something..... i'll find out!



( for 150k, you can buy a period correct, mid 60's nascar ford too from the same company!)

 

People put up with BMW or Mercedes quality issues (To a certain extent) because there are intrisic qualities built into the product. In other words, when the car runs well, it protrays a driving experience unmatched by any other domestic car in the market. That is the KEY difference between loving a mediocre "domestic" pet and an outstanding "foreign" pet. The MINI is an awesome product, hence many people in the beginning (including yourself) out up with the teething problems of the first and second year production cars (2002-2003). No domestic manufacturer currently produces an exact match of the MINI in my book.

The problem lies on that Detroit for many years made junk and then after that made "good enough" cars that did the job but had no outstanding qualities. In order for cars to be successful the entire "package" has to be there. Detroit passenger cars were merely decent transportation devices devoid of any real quality, innovation or "personality". So how can you fall in love with a product that: a)Is either mediocre or uninspiring and b) has questionnable build quality/reliability? It is very hard to overlook the faults of a car that is just "good enough" to get by, but lacks real substance and stamina.

I realize all that is slowly begnning to change down at the "tubes" in Detroit, but it will take decades to restore the luster and glory that the big 3 enjoyed 40-50 years ago.

The new Mustang is proof positive that when you put together your best resources at work, have people that are passionate and love, breath and talk cars 24 hours a day and you finally put aside the "bean counters" you can come up with kick *** product. Detroit can do it, but for many moons they choose not to.

In order for Ford, GM and DCX to ensure survival, every new car/truck to be schedule to launch in the next 10 years has to be an absolute HOMERUN! Gone are the days of "good enough" cars built for the loyal domestic car masses and rental car fleets. Detroit is in the midst of one of the most fiercely and cut throat US car market in history and they damn know well that they can no longer afford to mess up and get away with it.

Thank you Germany and Japan, because of you now Detroit, the "Sleeping giant" is finally awaken from a 30 year downslide.

 

Nice car. The SRT-6 addresses the initial performance complaints of the standard Crossfire. However, this baby is nothing but a rebadged Mercedes Benz SLK roadster. I don't think it is a bad thing, hopefully Mercedes has put their act together in terms of quality and reliability.

 

[QUOTE=C4]

I realize all that is slowly begnning to change down at the "tubes" in Detroit, but it will take decades to restore the luster and glory that the big 3 enjoyed 40-50 years ago.

QUOTE]

i would say less than 40 years ago, 30 years ago perhaps. i always see 1974 as the end of great american cars. (IE Mustang II came along)

if you think that a 1969 Sublime Green Roadrunner or a 1968 Black Charger R/T are lackluster and fantastic cars, theres somethign wrong here....

 

1974? I would think more like 1970, the last year of truly great American cars.

Cars made after 1974 were choking to death with all their primitive emissions equipment.

Do you think that the AMC Pacer and Gremlin were great cars?

How about the Pinto?

Oh and I'll take a late 1960's Pontiac GTO, Dodge Challenger or Barracuda or even an AMC Javelin

 

well, if you want to include challengers and cudas, you have to make it 1974. if you dont want to include those, you would have to be nuts!

even the emissions clogged 340's and 360's in the cudas and challengers in the later part of their lives still had power, not alot, but it was good old mopar power nonetheless!

EDIT: and i am actually a very big fan of pacers and gremlins. its the only car that i know of that you could have bought for under 2500 bucks in the day that could outrun a small block corvette from the same era

( this only applies to 401 Gremlin X's and 4 speed 390 Pacers)

 

OK you get no further disagreement from me. I was born in '71, so when I was in diapers you probably were already heavy into dating chicks, beer and muscle cars

 

That's the beauty of the deal. A great american car with the excellence of Mercedes Benz. And yes, MB put their hands here.

 

http://www.gremlinx.com/images/wpe6.gif

 

Actually I am far from the first. You just had to know which Fords to buy.

Ford did make crap and those three are great examples. Ford (and american car companies in general) make awful stuff in the 80's. All of the 80's. But things started changing for Ford in the mid-90's.

Actually one of the best features of the 05 Mustang - no blue oval. Instead its replacement is the best exterior feature on the new Stangs. A chrome old gas tank look-a-like that says GT FORD. See pic...


I actually owned a 97 Escort, sold it at 95k miles and it currently has 125k miles and runs like new. It has only had ONE repair to date and that wasn't even the car's fault. I got caught in a monsoon and 4+ feet of water. Water started pouring in the passenger compartment from the engine compartment! Well two days later I got it started after it dried out but the A/C fan would not work. Took it to the local station and it turned out to be something pretty simple and inexpensive. Hardly more than a fuse. Try submerging your MINI under water completely and keep it for 125k miles. See what goes...Now that's quality! Still the original clutch, BTW also. Then again the 97-99 Escorts were a Consumer Reports best buy. They should have never replaced the Escort with the troublesome Focus!

 

actually, your about 16 years older than me. when i was first walking, you were gradutaing high school!


ive been blessed to be in a family that is heavily influenced by muscle cars. if you walk out the back door of my house, you would be hard pressed to believe it wasnt 1970.

i went from a 73 mach 1 to a 73 challenger with a 440 to a VW karmann ghia to a sharknose vette and i'm working on coning my dad out of one of his project chargers!

my first car had a tad bit over 300 horses, i re-lived the muscle age from about 16 to now, and i'm glad to have experienced it!

 

From about 16 to now??? What are you 18 now? You act like 16 to 18 is a long time! Once you get a little older, you'll think two years is like a blink of an eye! :smile:

 

well, it was more like 15 to now, i had the mustang before i could drive

 

Now this is a great piccie! Love these two, together!

Hey, C4, what about those "awesome" K-cars that Chrysler made in the late 70s! The Blues Brothers movie (one of my favorites, by the way) must have destroyed 200 of them in that movie!

Chrysler has really improved their whole line since Mercedes "merged" with them (or is that hijacked them?)!


Clover