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Last summer I went to a reputable garage for an alignment due to my front tires being destroyed at an alarming rate. The owner came out and explained that I had "excessive camber all around causing the wheels to sag while on the lift." he also stated, "The problem was so bad he could just eye it, there was no question about it." Therefore the alignment didn't happen. He recommended KYB all-in-one units to replace my OE suspension. Also, he wanted $200 just for a 4-wheel alignment and $75 just to get a printout of the then-current wheel alignment specs. He seemed knowledgeable but outrageously expensive.
Since then I've installed Solo-Werks coil overs and replaced all front bushings, bearings, tie rod ends, strut mount bearings, adjustable rear end control arms, and STD plates.
After the work was completed, due to having the adjustability of coil overs, I decided to get a 1-year alignment from NTB. This way I could adjust height anytime and get alignments as needed. NTB is a nationwide company, they should be great. Right? Well, let's just say I haven't had the best experience.
The alignments begin... Measurements as I rolled into NTB. I mentioned the rear control arms adjustability and was assured the tech would set them, but didn't: 2nd visit to NTB, now the problem seems to have SWITCHED(!?) from the right to the front left tire. The two techs that test-drove the R53 both noticed the pull to the right. Before the tech began I spoke with him about the adjustable rear control arms, surprisingly, one adjustment bolt was loose! The final results after just an hour of the tech focusing on the rear. I was then told to come back when the shop's master technician would be in. The full-time techs on hand can't remedy these issues. (I overheard them tell another customer to come in when he was available also.) Seems the problematic wheels have switched sides, that's the part that baffles me 🤔.
After 4 tires and now 6 alignments my measurements are still an ongoing issue.
I've checked and double-checked that everything suspension-wise is torqued to spec.
Front-end bearings, bushings, and supplemental parts have been replaced along with the Solo-Werks coil overs.
My MINI is only lowered 1½ inches and runs 18x7.5 inch HD Spinout wheels wrapped in 215/35/18 tires. The ride is a bit jarring on rough roads, I'm currently looking for 16-inch wheels to ultimately replace these 18s but only after I can get my alignment in spec.
Is it so hard to perform an alignment? (or just my luck)
What should my next step be if their master technician can't solve the issue?
Could something be bent, if so what would the most likely culprit be?
What should I look for under the car? How noticeable would a bent control arm or whatever the problem is to detect?
I know there are some VERY knowledgeable people active on this forum and hope they see this. I'm looking for any advice & all suggestions. Hoping someone can assist me as to what I need to look into, change, or replace.
Well, the second set of measurements is at least consistent with a pull to the right, which I think you said you had before, right? That much cross camber would likely cause a pull. If you don't have camber plates and the tech knows how to work his alignment rack (thus far I'm not exactly brimming with confidence on that front), then my money is on something being bent in the front end. What's up with that rear toe?
Well, the second set of measurements is at least consistent with a pull to the right, which I think you said you had before, right? <You're 100% correct>That much cross camber would likely cause a pull. If you don't have camber plates and the tech knows how to work his alignment rack (thus far I'm not exactly brimming with confidence on that front), then my money is on something being bent in the front end. What's up with that rear toe?
The rear toe came in as the technician was adding positive camber. I believe it was a factor in adjusting the rear camber arms, per the technician. I preferred the camber in the rear, wear was minimal and the car felt as if it had more traction. Now, when accelerating onto an on-ramp the rear end feels more likely to get loose. Even on straight-crowned roads, the rear end feels like it wants to break to one side more so than before.
Might I add it was the same tech I had on the first service. The same guy that told me he would adjust the rear control arms but left them as is. The confidence level is low.
Negative on the camber plates. I was under the impression they only add more negative camber; for track purposes. (?)
Coil overs allow for ride height adjustment but AFAIK do not provide alignment adjustment. The car came with some range of adjustment. By lowering the car -- this has been my first and 2nd hand experience with other cars -- the factory adjustment range will be inadequate.
Aftermarket suspension components will be needed. Caster/camber plates at the front. The last graphic shows considerable difference in caster. Cars are very sensitive to caster differences. Caster difference used to be used in the "old" days to compensate for driving on crowned roads. This worked but on flat roads or roads with the crown the other way the car would have a very bothersome pull to it.
My SOP is to get the alignment with no adjustment or compensation for road crown.
Caster/camber plates -- to get the proper caster and camber -- and the car may need eccentric bushings to adjust camber.
With other cars "a lot" (but still within the factory specs) of negative rear wheel camber did not affect tire wear. What I found over the years is toe is a real tire killer. Camber not so much.
As an aside, those cars with fat/wide tires and so much camber the tires are riding only on a portion of their tread face are *not* representative of the proper use of camber. Inside edge tire wear is going to happen.
As one senior tech told me a car is aligned statically but it is on the road and underway that the alignment all comes together. Or not if the alignment is not right.
It reads like 1) The car may not have all the hardware components with all the adjustment necessary to bring the car into proper alignment. 2) You haven't found a shop capable of doing this even with the right hardware present.
Yeah. Running toe out in the rear is going to make it feel unstable. Why did he let the car leave like that?
Adjustable camber plates can be used to adjust out the cross camber if there ends up being no other solution. And if the measurements are right and you actually have cross camber…
Coil overs allow for ride height adjustment but AFAIK do not provide alignment adjustment. The car came with some range of adjustment. By lowering the car -- this has been my first and 2nd hand experience with other cars -- the factory adjustment range will be inadequate.
Aftermarket suspension components will be needed. Caster/camber plates at the front. The last graphic shows considerable difference in caster. Cars are very sensitive to caster differences. Caster difference used to be used in the "old" days to compensate for driving on crowned roads. This worked but on flat roads or roads with the crown the other way the car would have a very bothersome pull to it. --- That is 100% a problem I'm having.
My SOP is to get the alignment with no adjustment or compensation for road crown.
Caster/camber plates -- to get the proper caster and camber -- and the car may need eccentric bushings to adjust camber --- I've installed 2 rear adjustable arms. Maybe I need to change the other 2 out? Whether I need to invest in camber plates is an objective of this thread. To my knowledge most adjustable plates only add more negative camber, although I could be wrong.
With other cars "a lot" (but still within the factory specs) of negative rear wheel camber did not affect tire wear. What I found over the years is toe is a real tire killer. Camber not so much. --- I've been running 18x7.5 wheels and always preferred negative camber As far as that negative camber in the rear goes, never been an issue with tire wear.
As an aside, those cars with fat/wide tires and so much camber the tires are riding only on a portion of their tread face are *not* representative of the proper use of camber. Inside edge tire wear is going to happen.
As one senior tech told me a car is aligned statically but it is on the road and underway that the alignment all comes together. Or not if the alignment is not right.
It reads like 1) The car may not have all the hardware components with all the adjustment necessary to bring the car into proper alignment. 2) You haven't found a shop capable of doing this even with the right hardware present.
Thank you for that informative post. This thread is to help point me in the direction of what I need in order to get the car's geometry setup to drive as it should.
To respond to your compendium: 1.) I believe it's a bit of both, maybe I need caster plates and another set of adjustable rear control arms, but I 100% don't know. The MINI shops here in SC outsource their alignment jobs, but I may have to go that route.
2.) At the same time I feel as though the tech didn't fully commit to the job... After leaving the NTB location I heard a ringtone that was not mine. The tech left his phone in my car, when I went back to return it he was already on his lunch break. I just get the feeling it was a rush job.
Originally Posted by deepgrey
Yeah. Running toe out in the rear is going to make it feel unstable. Why did he let the car leave like that? Adjustable camber plates can be used to adjust out the cross camber if there ends up being no other solution. And if the measurements are right and you actually have cross camber…
The toe-out gives even the smallest turn the feeling of oversteer, and crowned roads are 2x worse than before this alignment. My thinking is the tech did a rush job, he only adjusted the rear control arms after I went out and spoke with him ½ way through the job.
From what I've read on adjustable plates they're mostly used to add negative camber. Again, I'm not 100% sure. But if that's what it takes I'll get them ASAP.
My biggest concern is why can't he get the front left adjusted without throwing out the front right? Hopefully, I can book an appointment with their master technician. Or try a different and newer location with better equipment and techs.
Last edited by Andrew Riley; Dec 30, 2022 at 09:31 PM.
Agreed, best to attempt to address cause of alignment woes while replacing any damaged components (if any) before going further. Downside of adjustable camber plates is inability of (most) alignment shops to accommodate those if installed using conventional (Hunter or equiv) laser style tools while on hydraulic lift. That being after preliminary camber adjustments, need to lower and then roll back/forth before lifting again while reinstalling/using laser tools for subsequent measurement checks.
My own issues related to circa 2006 suspension mods resulted in out of spec measurements, which the most-local MINI dealer service department was unable to cope with. In that case, their service manager agreed to refund charges in full for work not completed. Attempts to find an independent alignment shop willing to do the additional steps within prox 100 miles from my remote location were unsuccessful. My "solution" was to purchase manual DIY camber/caster gauge tools which did work well - especially with help from my buddy while doing adjustments and readings on the camber gauge tool purchased. Links on those available, if requested...
I mean, I’m no expert. However, if we assume the measurements are correct and everything is tight and new, then I suspect you could throw a set of adjustable camber plates on it, even up the front camber, and dial in some rear toe in, and then it would drive straight - or at least close to straight.
I feel that part of your woes are related to having NTB perform the alignments. While some of the techs that these places have on hand can be good at their job, most are not detail oriented or paid enough to really care. It seems every time you’ve gone back there for an alignment, you come away with something else out of whack. After 3 or 4 trips there, I’d be looking for a different shop.
Another option might be to find a local race shop that specializes in BMWs. The Mini suspension is designed by BMW and is surprisingly similar to adjustment.
You need a performance shop, not a tire and battery quick lube shop.
Don't go back to NTB.
Wholeheartedly agree.
The alignment shop I took my Mustang too after the curb encounter event was recognized as the alignment shop for performance cars. Not that my Mustang was that much of a performance car but I felt the guys at the shop had seen it *all*. And my good experience convinced me they had seen at least enough...
Took another car there and got a good alignment.
Then some time (years) pass. Online I happened to mention the name of the shop and someone familiar with it and with direct or 2nd hand experience with it posted the shop no longer deserved the high accolades that I had given it. That's unfortunate.
We have a guy at Gran Turismo East which is the only alignment shop in town I have found that can do an alignment correctly and will do whatever spec we want.
They can do it and tell you want is wrong and we are happy to help with parts or repairs to get it straight again as they are fairly straight forward. http://www.granturismoeast.com/
We have a guy at Gran Turismo East which is the only alignment shop in town I have found that can do an alignment correctly and will do whatever spec we want.
They can do it and tell you want is wrong and we are happy to help with parts or repairs to get it straight again as they are fairly straight forward. http://www.granturismoeast.com/
That's what I thought, but I didn't know if anything had changed. Gabe knows his stuff.
I feel that part of your woes are related to having NTB perform the alignments. While some of the techs that these places have on hand can be good at their job, most are not detail oriented or paid enough to really care. It seems every time you’ve gone back there for an alignment, you come away with something else out of whack. After 3 or 4 trips there, I’d be looking for a different shop.
Another option might be to find a local race shop that specializes in BMWs. The Mini suspension is designed by BMW and is surprisingly similar to adjustment.
I agree with you, they're not doing top-notch work due to their pay and the fact they're slammed with walk-in customers. Honestly, I don't think they schedule more than 1 and ½ hours max for each alignment job. Also, the 2 locations I visited seemed understaffed.
I wish I could take the MINI to @WayMotorWorks but he's almost 4 hours away. When I had my R50 I considered driving it down. He's always been a MINI guru and his knowledge is king IMO.
Welp, I think I'll do as the main tech told me last visit to NTB - "Go to our newer locations and ask for an appointment with the master mechanic." My front tires are badly worn on the inside and it turns out they have a new location just 15 miles away, plus it's still free. I feel there's nothing to lose by making an appointment. What's the worst that could happen, it's just an alignment...?
I have however found a local-ish MINI specialist shop that has good reviews. Midland's Motor Works in N.E. Columbia, SC. They can even program MINI and BMW computers and DME units. So I've got a few options now.
I've been a MINI owner for over 10 years and finding a shop that specializes in MINIs has always been a conundrum. 150 miles to the dealerships (Charleston and Charlotte), that's one of the main reasons I've stuck with NAM and learned so much from rebuilding the R50 transmission to changing the clutch to servicing the supercharger!
