R50/53 Best brake setup for stock size calipers/ rotors
2nd Gear
Joined: Dec 2020
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From: open range
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First of all, I do like the looks of Holies wrapped with meaty 195/65 R15 tires. I've never driven a Mini with 15" wheels, but I'm sure it will ride nice. Doesn't it rub on bigger imperfections?
While I agree with you on holes and grooves being useless on a daily driver I disagree on resulting friction. Contrary to popular believe surface area does not contribute to friction as long as we talk aboth smooth and hard surfaces like brake rotors and pads (soft tires are a different story). It's both coefficient of friction and pressure only (according to Coulomb). Surface area however does play an important role when it comes to heat transfer and distribution. So when you stress your brakes more brake pad area will help transfering heat to the rotors and thus to the surrounding air.
It's easy. Just get new pads. Even stock ones will most probably gain a noticeable advantage as they're new and not old. I'd go for reputable brand stuff like OE Mini, Ate, Brembo, PFC, Ferodo or Pagid. Avoid EBC.
While swapping pads make sure you thoroughly clean the sliding/contact areas of your calipers. Since BMW/Mini calipers use to be zink/electroplated avoid using a steel brush. Use a nylon brush if possible and some appropriate ceramic high-temp grease.
Agree!
Even though Benjamin stated not to invest in new calipers and rotors this is a great idea. R56 Justa brakes are proven to fit under Holies and due to the more advanced and stiffer design of the bigger TRW calipers and 54 mm instead of 48 mm pistons they provide more bite and less hysteresis. However for surface area see what I said above.
Let me add that R56 Justas and MCSs do NOT run the same pads. Dedicated S pads have a slightly different shape and bigger surface area.
Well, while there's not that much of space, there is actually 'some' space left, since Holies do fit R56 Justa with TRW15 calipers and 280 mm rotors.
Since TRW15 calipers are a more advanced design, stiffer and bigger, carry 54 mm instead of 48 mm pistons they do provide more than you'd expect from just going a few mm bigger rotors.
More bite and less hysteresis result in better feel. That doesn't necessarily mean shorter stopping distances though.
Do a Google search for 'Coulomb friction' and have a read.
First of all, I do like the looks of Holies wrapped with meaty 195/65 R15 tires. I've never driven a Mini with 15" wheels, but I'm sure it will ride nice. Doesn't it rub on bigger imperfections?
Friction creates the stopping power...right ?
With all of the cool holes and slots in your rotors, that's a bunch of material that...does not...create friction anymore..!
At one point many years back, the way the pads were made, they created and expelled gasses from the heat. The holes and grooves helped keep the pads against the rotors. That's...not...a requirement any longer. Pads are manufacturers much better nowadays, and don't outgas like they used to.
With all of the cool holes and slots in your rotors, that's a bunch of material that...does not...create friction anymore..!
At one point many years back, the way the pads were made, they created and expelled gasses from the heat. The holes and grooves helped keep the pads against the rotors. That's...not...a requirement any longer. Pads are manufacturers much better nowadays, and don't outgas like they used to.
I have and would like to keep the R81 wheels on my R53. Even on the stock breaks, the clearance is tiiiiiight!
So, I want to improve the stock setup as much as possible while not doing things like changing to a larger caliper/ rotor. What do you recommend to get the most stopping power for the littlest investment on the stock setup?
So, I want to improve the stock setup as much as possible while not doing things like changing to a larger caliper/ rotor. What do you recommend to get the most stopping power for the littlest investment on the stock setup?
While swapping pads make sure you thoroughly clean the sliding/contact areas of your calipers. Since BMW/Mini calipers use to be zink/electroplated avoid using a steel brush. Use a nylon brush if possible and some appropriate ceramic high-temp grease.
Besides all that was mentioned above, stock R56 - R5(X) non-S calipers might be an option if they’ll clear your wheels. They have larger pads than the R53 for more friction, but use a rotor that's almost the same diameter, 276mm vs 280mm if the info on the 'net is correct.
Although the R56 S and non-S calipers are the same, the carrier/mounting bracket is different for the different sized rotors. The brackets can be changed, but this usually adds significantly to the cost and can be hard to find separately so getting the correct assemblies the first time is best.
That’s what’s bad with a lot of the poor man’s JCW upgrade and question threads. “R56 calipers” is often used loosely and don’t stress only S caliper assemblies will fit the 294mm rotors.
Although the R56 S and non-S calipers are the same, the carrier/mounting bracket is different for the different sized rotors. The brackets can be changed, but this usually adds significantly to the cost and can be hard to find separately so getting the correct assemblies the first time is best.
That’s what’s bad with a lot of the poor man’s JCW upgrade and question threads. “R56 calipers” is often used loosely and don’t stress only S caliper assemblies will fit the 294mm rotors.
Let me add that R56 Justas and MCSs do NOT run the same pads. Dedicated S pads have a slightly different shape and bigger surface area.
Since TRW15 calipers are a more advanced design, stiffer and bigger, carry 54 mm instead of 48 mm pistons they do provide more than you'd expect from just going a few mm bigger rotors.
More bite and less hysteresis result in better feel. That doesn't necessarily mean shorter stopping distances though.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
.
Since TRW15 calipers are a more advanced design, stiffer and bigger, carry 54 mm instead of 48 mm pistons they do provide more than you'd expect from just going a few mm bigger rotors.
More bite and less hysteresis result in better feel. That doesn't necessarily mean shorter stopping distances though.
Since TRW15 calipers are a more advanced design, stiffer and bigger, carry 54 mm instead of 48 mm pistons they do provide more than you'd expect from just going a few mm bigger rotors.
More bite and less hysteresis result in better feel. That doesn't necessarily mean shorter stopping distances though.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
I dialed it out by using a higher torque pad in the rear and slowing down my rear coilover rebound speed. With single adjustable coilovers this would be harder to deal with
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2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 95
Likes: 23
From: Naperville, IL
I hope anyone who reads your post, also reads your post history, and then ignores it.
Some notes before tackling the "best brake setup" (all of this has been covered before):
- Brakes actually don't "stop" the car. Tires do. Brakes just speed up the process. It's why having the "greatest" brakes in the world on a icy road means almost nothing.
- Brake fade is when there's too much heat in the system (fluid, rotors, pads, calipers, etc). Getting rid of this heat as quick as possible or preventing it is ultimately the goal of larger rotors and brake ducts.
- Stopping distances and times change. You doing a panic stop at 70mph on a freeway is different than someone doing 70-0mph stops 10 times. Race pads generally take longer and further to stop a car during panic stops than the repetitive stops you'd see on a road course.
- Larger rotors don't equate to shorter stopping panic stops. They equate to better fade resistance, which means they can handle repetitive stops better.
- People who say they had better brakes after replacing their worn out components with x-drilled rotors are confused. I could replace a set of 5 year old Toyo RRs with some Walmart brand tires and have better grip -- that doesn't mean the Walmart tires are better.
- Stainless braided brake lines are good for brake pedal feel, they do nothing else. For street cars, run rubber lines -- They are easier to inspect for wear and damage over the braided lines that can hide damage/worn the rubber lines underneath.
- The easiest way to test your brake system is: Slam on the brakes. If your tires lock up and you're sliding, you need better tires. If you can't (ignoring ABS involvement), your brakes need attention.
So, with that all said (and there's a ton more to dig thru), the best braking setup is:
- The best tires you can afford and safety drive in your area. It's winter for many and driving around on some fresh A7s would be insanely unsafe.
- Properly bedded brake pads. Depending on your driving style, you can use a more performance oriented pad or autozone specials. Performance pad if you do spirited driving and want the better fade resistance at the sacrifice of marginally worse panic stop performance -- or autozone specials which will have the inverse.
- Solid, vented, two piece rotors. The two-piece and vented design will help with fade resistance and the solid rotor will help with the panic stops.
- Fresh and properly bled brake fluid.
- Good condition brake lines.
Good luck
Some notes before tackling the "best brake setup" (all of this has been covered before):
- Brakes actually don't "stop" the car. Tires do. Brakes just speed up the process. It's why having the "greatest" brakes in the world on a icy road means almost nothing.
- Brake fade is when there's too much heat in the system (fluid, rotors, pads, calipers, etc). Getting rid of this heat as quick as possible or preventing it is ultimately the goal of larger rotors and brake ducts.
- Stopping distances and times change. You doing a panic stop at 70mph on a freeway is different than someone doing 70-0mph stops 10 times. Race pads generally take longer and further to stop a car during panic stops than the repetitive stops you'd see on a road course.
- Larger rotors don't equate to shorter stopping panic stops. They equate to better fade resistance, which means they can handle repetitive stops better.
- People who say they had better brakes after replacing their worn out components with x-drilled rotors are confused. I could replace a set of 5 year old Toyo RRs with some Walmart brand tires and have better grip -- that doesn't mean the Walmart tires are better.
- Stainless braided brake lines are good for brake pedal feel, they do nothing else. For street cars, run rubber lines -- They are easier to inspect for wear and damage over the braided lines that can hide damage/worn the rubber lines underneath.
- The easiest way to test your brake system is: Slam on the brakes. If your tires lock up and you're sliding, you need better tires. If you can't (ignoring ABS involvement), your brakes need attention.
So, with that all said (and there's a ton more to dig thru), the best braking setup is:
- The best tires you can afford and safety drive in your area. It's winter for many and driving around on some fresh A7s would be insanely unsafe.
- Properly bedded brake pads. Depending on your driving style, you can use a more performance oriented pad or autozone specials. Performance pad if you do spirited driving and want the better fade resistance at the sacrifice of marginally worse panic stop performance -- or autozone specials which will have the inverse.
- Solid, vented, two piece rotors. The two-piece and vented design will help with fade resistance and the solid rotor will help with the panic stops.
- Fresh and properly bled brake fluid.
- Good condition brake lines.
Good luck
so, solid rotors, ceramic pads? (Have on my truck- haven’t noticed any issues with cold stops), maybe new rubber lines? I was thinking stainless braided, but your post is making me think with regard to visual inspection.
Benjamin, as others have so aptly put, and I will concur, the least expensive thing you can do to increase your braking is to take off the "bling" rotors and sell them to someone who wants to look good more than stop well. Replace them with a pair of good, cheap, solid rotors like CENTRIC. Bed them in properly using good set of better compound pads...not race compound, though. The higher priced compounds are great for the track or carving the twisties but they have to be in their "sweet spot" temp-wise before they perform well. Cold, they can scare the snot out of you! Stainless lines won't help you stop much better but will help you feel the pedal, thereby allowing you to modulate your braking better.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Pittsboro NC
i wouldn't say it's trying to come around, more like it makes the rear want to wag its tail a bit, easily correctable but unnerving because it's high speed heavy braking
2nd Gear
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 144
Likes: 31
From: open range
However I do understand concerns about altering brake bias in general. Better to know what you're doing, but in this case it's a non-issue. R50/53 Minis come with electronic brake distribution. When sensing lock-ups it will readjust brake bias (within system limits).
Feel free to retrofit 280 mm rotors on rear along with the corresponding carriers (R56 JCW & GP setup). The calipers are the same for both 259 and 280 mm (at least this applies to R56 Minis). I plan on doing this.
Benjamin, as others have so aptly put, and I will concur, the least expensive thing you can do to increase your braking is to take off the "bling" rotors and sell them to someone who wants to look good more than stop well. Replace them with a pair of good, cheap, solid rotors like CENTRIC. Bed them in properly using good set of better compound pads...not race compound, though. The higher priced compounds are great for the track or carving the twisties but they have to be in their "sweet spot" temp-wise before they perform well. Cold, they can scare the snot out of you! Stainless lines won't help you stop much better but will help you feel the pedal, thereby allowing you to modulate your braking better.
...as far as cracking goes.... I've used those cheap drilled and slotted rotors on everything from a Dodge Ram 1500, a Ford F350, my 335i, and my R53 ......all of them got small cracks coming from where the holes were drilled after a year or less. Not to say that any of them actually came apart, but they did crack. They are cheap for a reason......those "kits" come with cheap rotors, and cheap ceramic pads. A good set of OEM quality pads and OEM style solid rotors has a noticeable improvement in braking over those cheap ebay drilled and slotted rotor kits with the cheap ceramic pads.
But....back when I was young, dumb, and didn't know any better.....that's what I thought would make my vehicles stop better. I was wrong.
But....back when I was young, dumb, and didn't know any better.....that's what I thought would make my vehicles stop better. I was wrong.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
sure was a issue on both my cars, I upgraded the rear to R56 trailing arms and calipers, better sweep & pad area and it helped quite a bit, along with a higher torque rear pad
For street use it's probably fine, but I autocross, hpde, time trial and it's a significant issue there
For street use it's probably fine, but I autocross, hpde, time trial and it's a significant issue there
2nd Gear
Joined: Dec 2020
Posts: 144
Likes: 31
From: open range
How often do you think Benjamin does visit a track or autocross? He's currently on 195/65 CrossClimates btw.. Not what I'd call a track-oriented setup.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
How often do you think Benjamin does visit a track or autocross? He's currently on 195/65 CrossClimates btw.. Not what I'd call a track-oriented setup.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,113
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From: New Brunswick, CANADA
These brake pad / disk recommendation threads are always a hoot to read.
It's always a balancing act between what looks nice and what is the intended use of the brake system (daily driving / commuting vs. occasional autox / light lapping vs. serious autox / heavy lapping). As some have already stated, many of us have come up with solutions that wok for us but we have to remember that we don't all use our MINIs in the same way.
It's always a balancing act between what looks nice and what is the intended use of the brake system (daily driving / commuting vs. occasional autox / light lapping vs. serious autox / heavy lapping). As some have already stated, many of us have come up with solutions that wok for us but we have to remember that we don't all use our MINIs in the same way.
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2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 95
Likes: 23
From: Naperville, IL
How often do you think Benjamin does visit a track or autocross? He's currently on 195/65 CrossClimates btw.. Not what I'd call a track-oriented setup.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
For proper advice it's most helpful catering for the OP's needs and suppress one's own necessities. Honestly, no offence intended.
haha- I do have a second set of wheels and would like to do an autocross day, but my needs could be described as rally grocery getting. I want the best performance a stock set up can offer- i like to go fast, but I definitely don’t test the limits too often
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2nd Gear
Joined: Apr 2020
Posts: 95
Likes: 23
From: Naperville, IL
[QUOTE=930 Engineering;4566204].
First of all, I do like the looks of Holies wrapped with meaty 195/65 R15 tires. I've never driven a Mini with 15" wheels, but I'm sure it will ride nice. Doesn't it rub on bigger imperfections?
surprisingly, I have gotten no rubbing at all. Have hit some decent bumps and drive over speed bumps and tail road tracks constantly where I am. 195/65/15 are definitely a fit.
First of all, I do like the looks of Holies wrapped with meaty 195/65 R15 tires. I've never driven a Mini with 15" wheels, but I'm sure it will ride nice. Doesn't it rub on bigger imperfections?
surprisingly, I have gotten no rubbing at all. Have hit some decent bumps and drive over speed bumps and tail road tracks constantly where I am. 195/65/15 are definitely a fit.
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
Most wont but some do, I run 15x8 or 15x9 949racing wheels with a 10mm spacer and r56 fronts or wilwood fronts and they clear both
I hope anyone who reads your post, also reads your post history, and then ignores it.
Some notes before tackling the "best brake setup" (all of this has been covered before):
- Brakes actually don't "stop" the car. Tires do. Brakes just speed up the process. It's why having the "greatest" brakes in the world on a icy road means almost nothing.
- Brake fade is when there's too much heat in the system (fluid, rotors, pads, calipers, etc). Getting rid of this heat as quick as possible or preventing it is ultimately the goal of larger rotors and brake ducts.
- Stopping distances and times change. You doing a panic stop at 70mph on a freeway is different than someone doing 70-0mph stops 10 times. Race pads generally take longer and further to stop a car during panic stops than the repetitive stops you'd see on a road course.
- Larger rotors don't equate to shorter stopping panic stops. They equate to better fade resistance, which means they can handle repetitive stops better.
- People who say they had better brakes after replacing their worn out components with x-drilled rotors are confused. I could replace a set of 5 year old Toyo RRs with some Walmart brand tires and have better grip -- that doesn't mean the Walmart tires are better.
- Stainless braided brake lines are good for brake pedal feel, they do nothing else. For street cars, run rubber lines -- They are easier to inspect for wear and damage over the braided lines that can hide damage/worn the rubber lines underneath.
- The easiest way to test your brake system is: Slam on the brakes. If your tires lock up and you're sliding, you need better tires. If you can't (ignoring ABS involvement), your brakes need attention.
So, with that all said (and there's a ton more to dig thru), the best braking setup is:
- The best tires you can afford and safety drive in your area. It's winter for many and driving around on some fresh A7s would be insanely unsafe.
- Properly bedded brake pads. Depending on your driving style, you can use a more performance oriented pad or autozone specials. Performance pad if you do spirited driving and want the better fade resistance at the sacrifice of marginally worse panic stop performance -- or autozone specials which will have the inverse.
- Solid, vented, two piece rotors. The two-piece and vented design will help with fade resistance and the solid rotor will help with the panic stops.
- Fresh and properly bled brake fluid.
- Good condition brake lines.
Good luck
Some notes before tackling the "best brake setup" (all of this has been covered before):
- Brakes actually don't "stop" the car. Tires do. Brakes just speed up the process. It's why having the "greatest" brakes in the world on a icy road means almost nothing.
- Brake fade is when there's too much heat in the system (fluid, rotors, pads, calipers, etc). Getting rid of this heat as quick as possible or preventing it is ultimately the goal of larger rotors and brake ducts.
- Stopping distances and times change. You doing a panic stop at 70mph on a freeway is different than someone doing 70-0mph stops 10 times. Race pads generally take longer and further to stop a car during panic stops than the repetitive stops you'd see on a road course.
- Larger rotors don't equate to shorter stopping panic stops. They equate to better fade resistance, which means they can handle repetitive stops better.
- People who say they had better brakes after replacing their worn out components with x-drilled rotors are confused. I could replace a set of 5 year old Toyo RRs with some Walmart brand tires and have better grip -- that doesn't mean the Walmart tires are better.
- Stainless braided brake lines are good for brake pedal feel, they do nothing else. For street cars, run rubber lines -- They are easier to inspect for wear and damage over the braided lines that can hide damage/worn the rubber lines underneath.
- The easiest way to test your brake system is: Slam on the brakes. If your tires lock up and you're sliding, you need better tires. If you can't (ignoring ABS involvement), your brakes need attention.
So, with that all said (and there's a ton more to dig thru), the best braking setup is:
- The best tires you can afford and safety drive in your area. It's winter for many and driving around on some fresh A7s would be insanely unsafe.
- Properly bedded brake pads. Depending on your driving style, you can use a more performance oriented pad or autozone specials. Performance pad if you do spirited driving and want the better fade resistance at the sacrifice of marginally worse panic stop performance -- or autozone specials which will have the inverse.
- Solid, vented, two piece rotors. The two-piece and vented design will help with fade resistance and the solid rotor will help with the panic stops.
- Fresh and properly bled brake fluid.
- Good condition brake lines.
Good luck
these brake pad / disk recommendation threads are always a hoot to read.
It's always a balancing act between what looks nice and what is the intended use of the brake system (daily driving / commuting vs. Occasional autox / light lapping vs. Serious autox / heavy lapping). As some have already stated, many of us have come up with solutions that wok for us but we have to remember that we don't all use our minis in the same way.
It's always a balancing act between what looks nice and what is the intended use of the brake system (daily driving / commuting vs. Occasional autox / light lapping vs. Serious autox / heavy lapping). As some have already stated, many of us have come up with solutions that wok for us but we have to remember that we don't all use our minis in the same way.
Lol ok..so my buddy who tracks his r56 every year and has personally did stock vs drilled n slotted ect experimenting which was best setup.. for hard short braking , you need absolutely as much cooling as possible..this isn't the 70s and tech has changed , even how they now add the hole and slots to the rotors has changed so they don't crack like they used to..I won't argue anymore with some of ur guys nonsense . Just like trying to say stock intercoolers are the 2nd best you can have lololol i personally debunked that with just a cheap ebay bigger one. Showed other members my results and they've bought them too and are loving them. O yea, my cheap injector upgrade too others tried calling me out for.. id LOVE to race some of you know it alls in my mini and just EAT YOURS ALIVE with mine.. and then I sit here too and laugh at all the issues your cars are having but yet yours are put together sooooooooo much better ..hahaha ya, go read my posts fool.
Not to mention you can't even change a belt tensioner without screwing it up......
6th Gear - AX Champion
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 300
From: Pittsboro NC
I do the same thing, eaton engineers said it increases efficiency basically slightly less heat generation. Non OEM eatons typically do not have the silencer ports, they do not have to manage the noise
