Now think about all of the ways this theory gets hashed out in the media - transformers, terminator, robo-cop, this list could go on forever. I guess it all started with vampires - part human, part not; alive, yet not.

Very fun to think about - nabeshin for NAM mayor!

mb

 

1)August (don't know exact date) 2006, basically when she was assembled, it went through puberty in June, 06 on the Dragon when the break-in mileage rolled over.

2)It is far from the same car I drove off the dealer's lot. It's still resembles that car, and is similar in other ways, but it's grown, matured, and generally become more of a bad-*** through the years. She's even gone through a name change recently.

3) The car has a soul in the same way it has a personality, in that it's a reflection of the owner. The location of the soul is open to debate (on top of the driver's seat? Behind the steering wheel?) but then where is a human's soul located. Also, in the biblical sense my car better have a soul because if she's not waiting for me in heaven I don't wanna go there.

 

This refers more to the nature vs. Nurture debate. Sure the car probably had a soul and personality prior to your adoption, but as the two of you live together you'll probably find certain aspects of the car begin to mirror your own personality.

Sadly, I think it works both ways too, I find myself becoming more MINI in my lifestyle, buying things to match my car or because it reminds me of MINIs.

 

I've got two MINIs, and my answers to the questions / feelings about them are very different.

My 2003 Cooper was built to my specs, and I waited something like 9 months for it to arrive (coincidence?). For me, that car was "born" when I went to the dealership and gave them my order... well before there were any car parts put together in reality. Somewhere, I have a grainy pic of MINIs being loaded on the exact boat / voyage mine came across the ocean on... one of the little specs looks kinda like a velvet red / brown MINI... it may even be my car (someone in mini2 used to do this for people - crazy!)

Lots of parts have been replaced on my Cooper, lots more will be replaced. It's still the same car. Even if it looks like this now:


It's been through an amazing amount in 115,000 miles.

Wait, what was the initial question?

The new car, a 2007 MCS, was the dealership's demo car. I bought it after I crashed the Cooper on a racetrack and needed a new car to drive. Unfortunately, the new car is - just a car. Not because of an R50 / R56 family feud. Just because.

The 2003 Cooper... everyone at work knew it was coming well before it arrived. People were excited to hear about it getting closer to delivery. etc

The 2007 MCS... I went to the dealership one weekend and said "what do you have that's close to $20,000?" The next weekend, I drove it home.

If I had had the time to come up with my specs for my new car, order it, wait for it to arrive, then pick it up - I'd probably be more attached to it.

 

I like this quote - it fits REALLY well! I think we all know by now that Mini owners are...well...just SPECIAL. I have yet to meet someone who adopted a Mini who has NOT fallen in love with it. I honestly never thought about naming either of mine, or giving them a birthday, but I've accidently fallen into it now! I would say that the "soul" of the car is when the driver meets the car, and feels the love for the first time -- enlightenment or epiphany if you will! Once I win the lottery, I plan on adopting more than one at a time!

 

Deviant, The one word in your quote above that I can't relate to is "Sadly." I've only had my '03 CR MC for about five months now, and I'm enjoying becoming more MINI in my lifestyle. Now if you're referring to the extra money that has to get spent to do that, then maybe I understand!

On an aside, isn't it nice to see a Deviant and a Reverend enjoying a civil conversation? See what wonderful little creatures these MINI's are!

 

I wonder how much this attitude corrrelates with the Mini being the first real enthusiast car for those "in love". After all, there are a bunch of people who've moved on, and a bunch of people who turned in thier car with very, very low miles. Also, I wonder how much of this attitude will remain when the car has aged a lot, and every piece of rubber in the suspension is screaming for replacement...

Matt

 

The memory of what it once was will drive most to replace such parts.

 

I agree. Replace the parts! It almost broke my heart to sell my '04 BRG, since I had an '07 BRG turbo that was almost it's identical twin (twins!!)...but I couldn't in good conscience spend the money to ship both back to the US (I already had my own vehicle fleet!!) I drove my husband crazy holding on to the car 'til the last minute. Until I found JUST THE RIGHT buyer for it. I even turned someone down who offered more for it -- they didn't respect my baby, and I wasn't about to let her go to them!!

 

"Being" is not the same as "living". Maybe being begins at whatever point a thing is destined to be -- that is, at some point of no return, at which that thing is no longer a mere probability, but rather a certainty -- when the chance of "it" becoming becomes 1/1.

But, if that is so, then how does one define "the thing" that is "being?" Must one go to the molecular level? atomic? subatomic? Those are not useful measures to consider for a human's level of awareness.

If we were aware of such infinetessimal changes and regarded any one of them as consequentially causing a thing to no longer be that "same" thing, then no thing would ever be "the same" thing. Where then, can we humans draw the lines with our blissfully macrocosmic sensory awarenesses so as to perceive, and so, to accept, that a thing -- or a person -- is "the same" as it ever was.

We literally change our skins and most of our cells many times over the course of a lifetime. Our cars can change character significantly by no more than the selection of a new grille or a new set of tires, and yet we are likely to call the car "the same" in spite of the significant change.

Is it only a semantic issue? is it an issue of perception?; reality?; sub-atomic physics? I don't know.

Still, I am in some ways, yet in NO way, the "same" person that I was when I was concieved; or born; or turned 9, or 49. My MINI (as everything else physical) is never exactly "the same" as it was even a moment ago. Yet, I call it the "same" car. To me -- according to my perception -- it IS the same car. To me, it became "my MINI Cooper S" when I conceived it on-line by selecting the color, the packages, the wheels, and so on. Yet, it is STILL NOT COMPLETE!! I must eventually have a Jesus head, Wet Okole seat covers, and a Pioneer head unit to be completed as I now envision it.

Personally, I believe that none of us are ever "complete." We grow -- or we at least change -- until we are no more. So to our cars are never complete. they "grow" -- or at least change -- until they are no more. At least, I cannot imagine my car ever NOT continuing to become closer to the way I want it to be.

 

Oops. Another double post.

 

It is down to perception. You are right how everything is not the same as it was a moment ago. One theory of quantum mechanics is that the very act of observing something changes it. In our limited capactity to understand, it is easier to call things the same; just aged slightly or more worn/faded.

 

1. My MINI came into being when I bought it. It was sitting on the lot, lifeless, until then.

2. As long as I own it, it will always be the same car.

3. Yes, my MINI has a soul ...but its a soul we share, so its only enabled when driven by me.

Corny ...but that's how I feel.

Dean.

 

My MINI came int being when I received it's "number" from MINI. It was and is and will be connected with this particular MINI from birth to it's final rest.

As for the soul part, pull up a toadstool grasshopper and consider the following.

Life has 5 basic aspects.
1. Thought (Ideas,images, concepts, etc)
2. Feelings and emotions
3. Volition (Choice)
4. Physical body
5 Social context (relationships and connections to others).

Now the Soul is what integrates all of these into one being.

So essential MINIness travels a pathway from the initial idea of mini whether it's observing one on the freeway, seeing an ad in a magazine or whatever your "spark" was to the feeling and emotions that guided your decision.

Next you made a decision to aquire your MINI through whatever means your thought and emotions directed you. I suppose at this point if you decided to include DCS you gave your MINI a bit of it's own volition.

The actual manufacturing process put a physical body to your MINIness.

Your social context joins the entity when you realized that you needed to join NAM or minicooperonline for you "experience" owners.

With all of these aspects in place the only part missing is the soul which integrates all into one that you provide when you make first contact in the showroom.

 

I decided that to weigh in on this discussion in any meaningful way, I should go back to the questions Nabeshin posed in the beginning. So here goes ...

How does one really answer this question? When it comes to human beings, we cannot even come close to any real kind of consensus on this question. But perhaps that's simply because of the "political/philosophical" implications of the answer. So is it possible to answer it relative to our MINI's? And would our individual answers on the subject differ markedly from the ones we would otherwise give relative to humans? Though they probably could (and do) differ, one could even ask whether they should. Though in a post-modern world I suppose none of us should be surprised if they do differ significantly. Anyway, At what point did my MINI come into being?

For me I suppose it would come down to what constitutes the MINI-rial equivalent of the sperm and the egg! When did MINI-life begin? Well, with humans it requires two partners joining together for mutual benefit, so-to-speak. And although there are times when the occasion isn't mutually beneficial, in normal circumstances it is. I would think that in terms of MINI's, that would happen when the decision is made to purchase a MINI, and the buyer and the seller close the deal. That's effectively when the process begins, when the two parties, for mutual pleasure, join together to create something that didn't exist before.

I realize that at this point in my dissertation, that doesn't answer the question of what about MINI's that come into being without a sale being consummated? Ones that the manufacturer builds with the anticipation of eventually selling them. I'll have to think on that one, and get back to you at another time.

I was going to try and wax eloquent on the other two questions, but I've probably said enough for now.

 

That's deep, rev.


btw mbcoops, I accept the nomination.
Where do I sign?

 

yah, I'm totally feelin this soul question... In my case, I love the soul in my current car (a corolla), I've decided to take her with me... transferring her into the MINI when I get it. A well deserved total make over.

 

This raises intreresting questions with regards to the tangability of a soul.

btw, has anyon ever seen the anime movie/series "Ghost in the Shell"? They touch on all of this we have discussed. From the nature of a soul, to the idea that a basic AI can develop a soul and many other philosophical concepts. It is good stuff.

An exerpt from wiki:
-------------------
Ghost in the Shell is a futuristic police thriller dealing with the exploits of Motoko Kusanagi, a member of the covert operations section of the Japanese National Public Safety Commission, Section 9, which specializes in fighting technology-related crime. She may be named after one of the three Imperial Regalia of Japan and Shirow makes reference to them at the end of the second manga. Although supposedly equal to all other members, Kusanagi fills the leadership role in the team, and is usually referred to as "the Major" due to her past rank in the armed forces. She is capable of superhuman feats, and bionically specialized for her job — her body is almost completely mechanized; only her brain and a segment of her spinal cord are organic.
The setting of Ghost in the Shell is cyberpunk or postcyberpunk, similar to that of William Gibson's Sprawl trilogy. More than other cyberpunk authors, however, Shirow focuses more on the ethical and philosophical ramifications of the widespread merging of humanity and technology, the development of artificial intelligence and an omnipresent computer network set the stage for a reevaluation of human identity and uniqueness. More so than the films, the manga tackles these questions head on: Kusanagi and her colleagues face external threats and also suffer internal conflict over their own natures.
------------------


I don't mean to take this off topic, but I thought you all should take a look at it.

 

My MINI is adopted...MINI Next...but loved as if i had created it out of my own likes / choices / and options...

 

I just didn't think that this thread deserved to go into a death spiral just yet.

So, Nabeshin, I have a question or two for you, since you started the thread.

As you approach the subject, how does the whole idea of a MINI having a soul relate to the concept of naming a car? Can anyone really speak about their MINI having a soul if they haven't named it? When you named yours Mayumi, was it strictly because it was a cute Japanese girl name, or was there more to it than that?

And also, assuming you're the girl in the picture, would you mind weighing in on the whole aspect of guys naming their MINI's girl names, and girls naming their MINI's guy names, or guys using guy names and girls using girl names. What's your (or anybody else's) philosophy on that.

 

! Drat. The dreaded double post.

 

I think that anthromorphizing objects we hold dear (or hate) and pets, work animals, etc. is as old as the human race. Why we do it, I haven't a clue (although, when I asked Farley, he honked twice. What's with that?), but warriors have named their swords and stories abound of weapons with a soul of their own -for good or evil- ; craftsmen name their tools; and they all give them characteristics that are obvious only to the namer. It's a strange and wonderous trait we have.
-skip-
p.s. Farley says he's enjoying this thread immensely. -s-

 

When gas hit $2.00+ a gallon, I saw the MINI in Consumer Reports... honestly, that's the first I knew of the MINI. It just looked different in a great way.
April 1st, 2005: One test drive and 10 minutes later I put my $500.00 down for the order.
June 1st, 2005: Picked her up at Prestige in NJ popped in Led Zeppelin (specifically, the tune Good Time Bad Times) and the rest is history. No changes since... a few stickers on the windows maybe. :-)
The soul is in the driver and the vehicle.

 

EXCELLENT B.F. quote, Skip Irving. Hope you got to see John Adams on HBO. Superb.

 

Yes, indeed. Those guys are my idea of true American Heros.
-s-