R50/53 MINI philosophical discussion
http://youtube.com/watch?v=WA5krnTKTHY
Last edited by Oxybluecoop; Apr 1, 2008 at 04:01 PM.
Banned
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
From: in a house
to ask the best questions out there....
It is OK to stop building a Mini in the third trimester if it's got serious internal problems?
Can politicians mandate that a Mini stuck part way out the delvery bay mandate that the car be sent to the loading dock even if serious harm could come to the factory?
The really good questions are nearly endless. The touchy feely stuff doesn't do much for me. But then again, I have an 02 with 93k miles and still no name for it, other than "the Mini" (used to differentiat between it, "the MDX", "the Mustang" and "the Fiat"). I guess I just have no soul.
Another question, can agnostics or athiests enjoy the car as much as those that anthropomorphise the cars and postulate that they posses soul, or are agnostics and athiests damned to partial enjoyment and no ascention into automotive heaven?
Matt
It is OK to stop building a Mini in the third trimester if it's got serious internal problems?
Can politicians mandate that a Mini stuck part way out the delvery bay mandate that the car be sent to the loading dock even if serious harm could come to the factory?
The really good questions are nearly endless. The touchy feely stuff doesn't do much for me. But then again, I have an 02 with 93k miles and still no name for it, other than "the Mini" (used to differentiat between it, "the MDX", "the Mustang" and "the Fiat"). I guess I just have no soul.
Another question, can agnostics or athiests enjoy the car as much as those that anthropomorphise the cars and postulate that they posses soul, or are agnostics and athiests damned to partial enjoyment and no ascention into automotive heaven?
Matt
6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,589
Likes: 2
From: Oregon, USA
to ask the best questions out there....
It is OK to stop building a Mini in the third trimester if it's got serious internal problems?
Can politicians mandate that a Mini stuck part way out the delvery bay mandate that the car be sent to the loading dock even if serious harm could come to the factory?
The really good questions are nearly endless. The touchy feely stuff doesn't do much for me. But then again, I have an 02 with 93k miles and still no name for it, other than "the Mini" (used to differentiat between it, "the MDX", "the Mustang" and "the Fiat"). I guess I just have no soul.
Another question, can agnostics or athiests enjoy the car as much as those that anthropomorphise the cars and postulate that they posses soul, or are agnostics and athiests damned to partial enjoyment and no ascention into automotive heaven?
Matt
It is OK to stop building a Mini in the third trimester if it's got serious internal problems?
Can politicians mandate that a Mini stuck part way out the delvery bay mandate that the car be sent to the loading dock even if serious harm could come to the factory?
The really good questions are nearly endless. The touchy feely stuff doesn't do much for me. But then again, I have an 02 with 93k miles and still no name for it, other than "the Mini" (used to differentiat between it, "the MDX", "the Mustang" and "the Fiat"). I guess I just have no soul.
Another question, can agnostics or athiests enjoy the car as much as those that anthropomorphise the cars and postulate that they posses soul, or are agnostics and athiests damned to partial enjoyment and no ascention into automotive heaven?
Matt
And no one took the bait.......
Yeah...
what can I say.... I guess we'll just have to wait for lawsuits to make it to the Supreme Court to know for sure.... The way the court is staked now, life began at Ingosols conception.... 
Matt
Matt
Nabeshin,
I noticed you changed your signature picture. Is it still you, or did you change when your signature changed?
But seriously, I love the thread.
Although I could try to speak to the conception question, here's a different twist on the soul question. I bought TAZMIN used, which would be sort of like saying I adopted her from an orphanage. So, did she already have a soul when I bought her, or does a MINI only have a soul when it becomes a part of a caring family unit?
I noticed you changed your signature picture. Is it still you, or did you change when your signature changed?
But seriously, I love the thread.
Although I could try to speak to the conception question, here's a different twist on the soul question. I bought TAZMIN used, which would be sort of like saying I adopted her from an orphanage. So, did she already have a soul when I bought her, or does a MINI only have a soul when it becomes a part of a caring family unit?
Last edited by revray; Apr 1, 2008 at 08:23 PM.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,237
Likes: 6
From: Lincoln, NE
Nabeshin,
I noticed you changed your signature picture. Is it still you, or did you change when your signature changed?
But seriously, I love the thread.
Although I could try to speak to the conception question, here's a different twist on the soul question. I bought TAZMIN used, which would be sort of like saying I adopted her from an orphanage. So, did she already have a soul when I bought her, or does a MINI only have a soul when it becomes a part of a caring family unit?
I noticed you changed your signature picture. Is it still you, or did you change when your signature changed?
But seriously, I love the thread.
Although I could try to speak to the conception question, here's a different twist on the soul question. I bought TAZMIN used, which would be sort of like saying I adopted her from an orphanage. So, did she already have a soul when I bought her, or does a MINI only have a soul when it becomes a part of a caring family unit?
Hmmmmm....
if a car has a soul, where does it reside? This is a question early philosophers had real problems with. If it was distributed through the body, then why did people seem to be "the same" when a finger was cut off, but not when brain damage occured. Sure could make the case that a lot of "quirks" reside in the ECU. If it's etherial, what keeps the soul co-located with the body? This one was never answered satisfactorially....
But really, it's just a freakin car!
Matt
But really, it's just a freakin car!
Matt
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,237
Likes: 6
From: Lincoln, NE
You raise some good points Doc. I'm inclined to believe that if a car was to develop a soul or a spontanious A.I. it would reside in the ECU.
I could go into more of my views on 'souls' in general, but I want to try to keep this MINI related.
I could go into more of my views on 'souls' in general, but I want to try to keep this MINI related.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,779
Likes: 0
For me.. my mini came into being, when I first saw it. Heard it whine down the autobahn, calling me to follow. It became something to me even at that point. I waited 10 months for my mini to become a physical being.my Huband and I were in Iraq, came home and ordered it. At the time I ordered it, it became a flutter.. and when it arrived it physically was in my being.. then the whole excitement the waiting was over and I had my beauty. I guess when you dream it, and can see it in your mind.. to me thats when the car comes into existence.
I have modded the car.. added graphics, and am constantly designing it in my head.. but the essence of the car remains. The more I do to it, the more it is just taking on my persona. It still remains and will always remain union jackee.
I feel the car has essence.. mine. It is my design, my dream.. my car.. I dont think it has a soul, perhaps a personality.. again mine..
I have modded the car.. added graphics, and am constantly designing it in my head.. but the essence of the car remains. The more I do to it, the more it is just taking on my persona. It still remains and will always remain union jackee.
I feel the car has essence.. mine. It is my design, my dream.. my car.. I dont think it has a soul, perhaps a personality.. again mine..
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
I bought my mini off the dealers lot. The mini was ordered by another person, all the options chosen by that person. It didn't have a soul. I have the car over a year now and I think I can say it still doesn't have a soul but a lot of sentimental value.
You're giving me hope..
Matt
Nabesin, Maybe you should start another thread under the "Off Topic - Off Topic" forum. I'd be interested in hearing about you views on 'souls' in general.
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 931
Likes: 14
From: NW Georgia, USA
I've added the main topics of discussion to this first post.
1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier MINI's birthday. But does it become a MINI at the first weld? When the body work is all in? When it's painted? Or when then engine is installed, started? Or maybe some point in between. What is everyone's opinion on this? I'm not even sure of this myself, but I thought it would make a good discussion.
2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a part, is it any less that same car? If you keep changing parts, at what point does it become a new car, i.e. not the same one that was built orginally? You still own it, but it is not the same. My car only has 3 origonal body panels left (the passenger door, the panel in front of that, and the windshield wiper panel) This problem bothers me sometimes. Anyone familiar with philosophy will recognise this as the Ship of Theasies problem, or something like that.
3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside? The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier MINI's birthday. But does it become a MINI at the first weld? When the body work is all in? When it's painted? Or when then engine is installed, started? Or maybe some point in between. What is everyone's opinion on this? I'm not even sure of this myself, but I thought it would make a good discussion.
2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a part, is it any less that same car? If you keep changing parts, at what point does it become a new car, i.e. not the same one that was built orginally? You still own it, but it is not the same. My car only has 3 origonal body panels left (the passenger door, the panel in front of that, and the windshield wiper panel) This problem bothers me sometimes. Anyone familiar with philosophy will recognise this as the Ship of Theasies problem, or something like that.
3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside? The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
#2 I think it's still the same car. A child who goes through various body changes through adulthood and eventually old age is still the same person.
#3 My MINI has a heart and soul, but I'm not sure where exactly it resides. I bought a new Honda about 3 weeks ago, and it damn sure doesn't have any more soul than a toaster oven. Also, I don't really think it's in the ECU because I've had cars with souls that never had an ECU. I KNOW it's there...just not WHERE it is.
This is a great thread, and usually I think great threads are purely technical in nature!
Rawhyde
PS...
Why is it headed for a locking? Nobody mentioned going 71 mph down a deserted interstate.
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 5,237
Likes: 6
From: Lincoln, NE
, I do it all the time.
nabeshin-
>1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier
for me, when it leave the outgoing QC line.
it's not complete until all bits are together and verified for release.
>2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a
mine's mildly modded. as with playing dressup, it is still the same car
just accessorized.
>3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside?
The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
the soul of my car resides in the computer. it's moody to temperature
and humidity. never really consistent, never really could trust it in
extreme conditions hot or cold. the imperfection gives it personality.
>1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier
for me, when it leave the outgoing QC line.
it's not complete until all bits are together and verified for release.
>2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a
mine's mildly modded. as with playing dressup, it is still the same car
just accessorized.
>3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside?
The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
the soul of my car resides in the computer. it's moody to temperature
and humidity. never really consistent, never really could trust it in
extreme conditions hot or cold. the imperfection gives it personality.
6th Gear
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,047
Likes: 0
From: NJerz
Love this thread! Hmmmmm what would Descartes say about #3? Fun to think about...thanks for bringing it up!
1. 12/14/04 - when it rolled off the line.
2. Yep, same car.
3. I'm on the record saying the R53 had distinct soul. That's different than saying that my car as A soul, specifically. I'll defer to Donna Haraway and her cyborg theory here - without the human, the car is only a machine, and without the machine, the human can only be, well, human. And since we humanize cars and cars mechanize us (can you run 100mph or pull a .90 on a skid pad in your Nikes?) then we work together to form one cyborg.
This question could be an essay assignment in a philosophy 101 class. It makes me wonder what the difference between a body and a mind is when considering the difference between a car and its personality (if it has one). If there's a "ghost in the machine," then what's in me? Or is the only thing that we can know exists physical matter? Is the next question, "how can one know anything?"
Never thought we'd be discussing this stuff on NAM - excellent stuff.
mb
1. 12/14/04 - when it rolled off the line.
2. Yep, same car.
3. I'm on the record saying the R53 had distinct soul. That's different than saying that my car as A soul, specifically. I'll defer to Donna Haraway and her cyborg theory here - without the human, the car is only a machine, and without the machine, the human can only be, well, human. And since we humanize cars and cars mechanize us (can you run 100mph or pull a .90 on a skid pad in your Nikes?) then we work together to form one cyborg.
This question could be an essay assignment in a philosophy 101 class. It makes me wonder what the difference between a body and a mind is when considering the difference between a car and its personality (if it has one). If there's a "ghost in the machine," then what's in me? Or is the only thing that we can know exists physical matter? Is the next question, "how can one know anything?"
Never thought we'd be discussing this stuff on NAM - excellent stuff.
mb
I've added the main topics of discussion to this first post.
1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier MINI's birthday. But does it become a MINI at the first weld? When the body work is all in? When it's painted? Or when then engine is installed, started? Or maybe some point in between. What is everyone's opinion on this? I'm not even sure of this myself, but I thought it would make a good discussion.
2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a part, is it any less that same car? If you keep changing parts, at what point does it become a new car, i.e. not the same one that was built orginally? You still own it, but it is not the same. My car only has 3 origonal body panels left (the passenger door, the panel in front of that, and the windshield wiper panel) This problem bothers me sometimes. Anyone familiar with philosophy will recognise this as the Ship of Theasies problem, or something like that.
3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside? The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
1.At what point did your MINI come into being? Like, people refer to thier MINI's birthday. But does it become a MINI at the first weld? When the body work is all in? When it's painted? Or when then engine is installed, started? Or maybe some point in between. What is everyone's opinion on this? I'm not even sure of this myself, but I thought it would make a good discussion.
2.Is your MINI the same car it was when you bought it? If you change a part, is it any less that same car? If you keep changing parts, at what point does it become a new car, i.e. not the same one that was built orginally? You still own it, but it is not the same. My car only has 3 origonal body panels left (the passenger door, the panel in front of that, and the windshield wiper panel) This problem bothers me sometimes. Anyone familiar with philosophy will recognise this as the Ship of Theasies problem, or something like that.
3.Do you feel your car has a soul? If so, wherein does it reside? The computer? The engine? Or is it the sum of its parts like some sort of ghost in the machine?
6th Gear
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 4,293
Likes: 2
From: Cincinnati, Ohio
She came to life during her 8 mile test run at Oxford back in Sept.'02. (live birth = when life begins)
Many mods have indeed changed her, for the better, like getting an advanced degree. (Nature + Nurture = Self)
She's an R53, of course soul is involved. (Cogito ergo Zoom)
Many mods have indeed changed her, for the better, like getting an advanced degree. (Nature + Nurture = Self)
She's an R53, of course soul is involved.
(Cogito ergo Zoom)
Last edited by MGCMAN; Apr 3, 2008 at 01:37 PM.
6th Gear
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,517
Likes: 3
From: Washington. No, the other one.
1: When I saw the first picture of the new Mini online. It sprung (sprang? springed?) into existence full-blown in my mind. It was just waiting for the proper alignment of the universal forces until we met. Then "click!" it happened.
2: Yeah, we've both grown up a little (well, maybe I got a little younger.)
3: The soul recreates itself each time I sit in the car. It's a gesalt of both of us. When I'm not in it, it is just potential. (and I'm a little diminished)
2: Yeah, we've both grown up a little (well, maybe I got a little younger.)
3: The soul recreates itself each time I sit in the car. It's a gesalt of both of us. When I'm not in it, it is just potential. (and I'm a little diminished)