Some good afternoon read:

http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/...ra/P114895.asp

 

To make matters worse, GM keeps plugging that Hywire POC! Nice concept, for 40 years from now..... And now they have to buy hybrid drivetrains from Toyota!

I've often wondered how the power structure (normally called conservative, but I prefere myopic) can insist that we not change anything in the face of overwhelming evidence. Instead of creating the industries of tomorrow, we're protecting the industries of yesterday.....

When I got my last SUV (Acura MDX), one of the reasons was that it got ~18 MPG, compared to the V8 Exporer at about 15.... While a delta of 3 isn't that much, it's a large %. And for those of you who say I should have compared to the V6, it's numbers are pretty much the same as the V8, only less torque. And the 3.5 Acura motor does pretty well, ~240 HP (in 2002, 265 now). Still more than the V8 in the exporer.

So all the crap we're spewing (about resources, social engineering etc) is just that crap. Examin the data, we're ignoring the increased oil costs, delivering heavy, large inefficient vehicles, and then sending our troops to die. All for the H2!

Matt

 

Very interesting read. Right from the mouth of the GM, they way they planned on getting out of their slump is going to be to "Increase the production, and marketing for heavy pick-up trucks, and mid-range SUV's"

They are a classy bunch. I have an insight as a daily driver, and after my father owned one American auto, he (and I agreed with him) vowed not to own another. The German car he owned previously, was 10 years ahead in ergonomic design, comfort, and engine efficency, and reliability.

I have NEVER felt any attraction to any American automobile enough to want to buy it...sad but true.

 

I disagree with one point...

those companies are not forcing anyone to buy their product. GM et al does not send anyone overseas to be killed...so enough of the inflammatory rhetoric.

The people in America who continue to buy and lease vehicles that get crappy mileage are to blame for the high oil dependency. I cannot tell you how many college students I see bearing the "No blood for Oil" standard while driving around in a low mileage per gallon vehicle.

Change the buying paradigm and you will change the oil needs.

 

Well said!

 

Moving this from MINI Talk to Off Topic - Autos. And please, political comments are not tolerated on NAM.

 

You can only argue about vendor dyno charts!!


In my opinion people buy what the TV tells them to buy. People buy Nike, because they have the best ad's not because they have the best shoes. They don't care about child labor in China...they just care about image. When it comes to American autos, the options for a car that gets good gas mileage, put you in a "lower class" than the gas guzzlers. They are the low end of the American auto spectrum.

Contrast that with Honda which just released the Accord hybrid, which gets 30 city/37 hwy, you have the option to buy the clone of a major car line for that auto maker, but get better mileage. (BTW the hybrid accord has a quicker 1/4 mile time ).

To put it bluntly, if the American auto makers would start making hybrid vehicles their forte, and really started pushing them as major models...the American populus would follow allong no questions asked.

But like I said earlier, GM plans to counter their demise with more heavy duty pick up sales....

 

I don't get the part about slow decision making by Japanese management. It seems to me that Honda and Toyota got their market share by putting out high quality, low cost fuel efficient vehichles and then revamping them completely every 3 years. GM's timetable for putting out junk was on the order of 6 years! And some times longer.

GM used the same shift mechanism in their half ton trucks for around 30 years. I,m speaking of the 3 speed on the column. It was a conniption of rods and levers that were exposed to the elements and wore quickly to where they began to jam. You needed to climb under the truck and shake or pound the rods until they freed up so you could drive again. They knew of this problem for 30 years without ever addressing it.

 

When gas prices top $3.00 per gallon, we'll see the SUV craze take a dive, preferrably permanently. The typical consumer will just find more economical means to get around. When I first got my MCS, everybody asked how fast it went, now they all ask what kind of mpg I get. There must be something there.

Own a Hummer? Bummer!

 

I hope you are right, but I am skeptical.

One problem may be that fuel prices have only been creeping up. If they spike 25% in one weekend we might see people question driving big cars, but would they really switch?

Recall the oil crisis of the early 70s. That was the first time such a price hike happened (it was bigger than anything recent) and it was accompanied by fuel rationing--something we have not had to tolerate today. People waited in lines to get gas and paid a premium. That combination one-two punch knocked out the big three. Demand for big cars plummeted. Used luxury cars became a bargain. Japanese cars gained sales at the expense of Detroit. But that led to import quotas, Japan-bashing, etc. What a world.

I'm just glad MINI drivers are smarter than all that.

 

Not so. As a result of the oil embargo in the 1970's, all the U.S. car companies were scrambling to build small cars. The companies who were already positioned well in the market with a line of small cars were just plain lucky, right product, right time: luck. Before the oil embargo, Honda and all the companies whose forte were small vehicles had only a tiny marketshare. They increased marketshare not because of the product quality, but because the cost of fuel had skyrocketed. Those same companies RETAINED marketshare, and later grew it, because they were meeting the needs of the market. It's as simple as that. Actually, when fuel prices stablized, the Japanese companies realized they would lose share if they didn't start building larger cars - which they did. Then they developed luxury brands.

Eveyone thinks Japanese cars are about fuel efficiency and being responsible. In the 1990's, the Toyota Landcruiser had terrible fuel mileage, under 10mpg in town. Why? Because the market wanted that SUV.

Prices cause people to behave in certain ways. Lower the price and people buy. Raise it and they revise their buying, or stop altogether if appropriate. Governments use tax policy to achieve the same results. In fact, tax policy is primarily about getting people to behave a certain way.

The reason the Japanese auto companies always seem magically well positioned to gain share when fuel prices rise is because they already build these small cars for their domestic market. In Japan, you pay taxes on the size of your car. That is not because of fuel issues, it's because Japan is a small country and is limited on space. If Japan was a large as the United States, things would be very different. An MCS in Japan would be considered a large car.

You guys seem to think eveyone is the same around the world, with the same needs. The US is unique in that we have HUGE amounts of free space and millions of miles of roadways. Our transportation needs are very different than those in Japan and Europe.

I ask this, if the H2 got 25mpg in town and 35 hwy, would you still hate it?

And I still say hybrid drivers are holier-than-though types.

 

This is true! While I get people stopping me left and right to ask about it - I get 'how many miles to the gallon do you get?' just as much as 'How does it drive?'

 

What steams my short is the total persuit of short term $ in the face of overwhelming evidence that the short term win isn't in the long term interests of the company or society.

Look at over head cam engines. lots of evidence that they run "better", but we got push-rod motors from the big three for many a year.......

Social engineering is rampant (and I think this is a good thing), but we don't increase our CAFE standards, because we "want the market to decide". Well, the market is short sighted, and will go where the going is easiest. If the marketplace saw short term value in pouring murcury on the grounds of kindergardens, it would do so, and only public policy would prevent this. So Bah! to the marketplace! There is a role for leadership in society, as well as market forces.

Over $3 a gallon? Already, in SF, and in the south bay I've seen lots of Shell stations with supreme at $2.99.9.... We're there, it's going to get worse, and whether planning or luck, those dealers with more efficent cars will gain market share. GM and Ford can't milk pickups for much longer, look at the offerings from Toyota and Nissan.

Sure, the US makers have some time. There aren't any good Japanese replacements for a F350 Dually PowerStoke deisle, yet.....

Matt

 

I get these questions too, kae! I even had a security guard at an Alabama rest stop ask me if my MINI was French! That was a first!


Clover

 

What a freaking idiot Burns is. I-D-I-O-T.

 

It's not that easy. The main problem the big three had was not the will or capability to build overhead cam engines.. The problem was there were not enough qualified people to repair them. Harley Davidson has this exact same problem now. Althought the VRod is changing that.

Really? So what you're saying is you trust the government more than the marketplace? Hey, the marketplace DOES need to be balanced with government forces, but only as little as possible. I work in government (see how I can waste time here) and I assure you, if you think the marketplace is wasteful, you ain't seen nothing yet until you work in the government. We blame Exxon for polluting but the #1 polluter in the US is the US government itself.

So California state government, in response to federal clean air laws, forces new blends of fuel on the market. This fuel costs 10% more to produce and it resulted in 10% poorer fuel economy. Then it discovers the new fuel ingredients are poisoning the ground water. So it's pulling those blends off the market. All at another higher cost passed on to you and me.

So who really is to blame for the high prices? You got it, our social engineering government. But you probably don't care or want to believe it because you enjoy your anger and delusion.

You are either too young or have forgotten the oil embargo and the rise in gas prices in the 1970s. The rise in prices was the result of price and wage controls by the feds! The price controls caused shortages at the pump. All the while, ships full of oil sat off shore waiting to deliver crude.

Today, yes, the prices are high. But there's also no shortage. Which would you prefer?

Pure waste, everywhere: H&HS departments all over California purchased Dell laptops using bio-terrorism grant money from the feds. Want to know where 75% of those laptops have been sitting for the past 12 months? In closets, unused. They bought Blackberrys and Axioms for their in-field nurses to use. 80% of those are unused.

That's your government in action. It can't manage the use of technology and you expect it to manage something as complex as the marketplace? The Russians tried it for 70 years and failed. So have the Chinese. North Korea is a complete and total basketcase.

And you want the US to try the same thing? Very bad idea.

 

Don't know about south of the border,but SUV sales are down about 18% up here from a year ago.

 

Massachusetts congressman takes aim at energy bill
By Associated Press
Saturday, April 23, 2005 - Updated: 11:52 AM EST

CAPITOL HILL - A Massachusetts Democrat is blasting the House-approved energy bill, saying it's full of ``desperate'' schemes that won't reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.


Edward Markey says the bill will even increase that dependence, because it lacks any requirement making cars and sport utility vehicles more fuel-efficient.

An energy bill without an effiency requirement????

""And I still say hybrid drivers are holier-than-though types."" by Monkeyboy

Thanks. I've always considered myself holier than thou.....at least a better speller...

 

LOL. That's the best you can do? Attack a spelling error?

Grow up.

Wait. Can I play, too?

"An energy bill without an effiency requirement????"

effiency?

By the way, the term is CAFE standards. Why involve new requirements when they already exist for future years? Below are the current reports. CAFE standards are set thru 2007 or later already.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/cafe/CAFEData.htm

 

A metaphor for the larger problem is that the current energy bill continues to provide tax incentives to buy Hummers while no longer providing tax rebates for those purchasing hybrids.

Less a metaphor is that it also includes 8.1 million to global energy companies like Exxon Mobil -- whose profits were up 44% -- as incentives to help the US achieve "energy independence".

I'd like to see a man on the moon redux: challenging Americans (including the young) to meet a goal of developing enough alternative energy sources by a specified time. It seems to me to be a much better route to energy independence than encouraging consumption and seeing the solution in oil.

please pardin all typos.