http://users.exis.net/~rcwomack/mini-hk-stereo.html

See what you think.

_________________
Bradley

 

Darksky-
Excellent. Nice blue background. Great info on adjusting the settings for HK. No user manual- what were they thinking? Perhaps HK thinks that we should all be impressed that HK only makes premium stuff.
Speaker grille pics are good. Maybe consider adding the actual front and rear speakers. Just interesting to see the speakers. See the MB Quart speaker thread-Speaker pics available-credit the photographer or take your own pics. https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...tart=25&26

Any need for a sentence or two on how this HK system varies from the stock sound system with the cooper? Or a comment on the value of the option for the extra $550. Do you get what you pay for? Plus you get the added 4 year warranty which you don't get with a custom system.

Any specs on the HK unit or speakers? Nothing to be found from HK? It is their product. Strange- there should be some sort of techical bulletin somewhere. Something for completeness at the end of the article or maybe just a link.
Your appraisal and opinion is reasonable and valid.
Thanks very much for doing it. very helpful

_________________
03MCS-IB/W, aero grille, white tail lights, MB Quart speakers, euro parcel shelf, Madness intake/ rear swaybar- Get In.Get Out.Get Even-Motor On

 

I am searching for HK amp output specs, but I have not been successful (yet).

 

Be sure to add when you test the HK system to do extensive testing while test driving the car. I've found that the HK system sounds different at speed when speed sensitive volumn comes into the picture and also when rattles especially from the door and glove compartment area interfere with the sound.

Also add that any radio static is really amplified, compared to other car audio systems, due to the better quality tweeters being used in the HK.


I took the cover off the tweeters and noticed that it looks like there's "two" speakers there...or is that a diffuser for the tweeter cone?

 

dominicminicoopers-
Good point about adjusting for the speed sensitive feature of HK-
If you want to see pictures of the HK speakers front and rear they are posted in the other MB Quart speaker thread-
They show-A "dual voice coil woofer" and a "coaxial mid-tweeter"
which is what you saw in the front and is what is hidden in the back.

 

I'm an acoustics engineer in the automotive industry. To answer the question "Is the system worth the $550". Definitely! Spending $550 on aftermarket components won't get you near the sound quality. It may get you a lot of bass, or some real bright highs, but, a lot of testing, tuning and optimization goes into an Audiophile sound system like the HK.

The amplifier contains vehicle specific EQ, and the amount of power, type of speakers, etc. were all chosen to give the best sound for the money. The typical aftermarket assumption is that pouring more money in, and throwing out stock components means automatic improvements... I'd argue, strongly, that it doesn't.

My best friend is a systems engineer at HK, and I do the same for a big competitor. He and I and many others live and breath audio, have millions of dollars of equipment, trained juries to perform double blind evaluations of systems, and equipment to perform vehicle specific DSP EQ and other optimization (sorry, can't say)... to help us make these systems the best for the money. Only a small percentage of shops have the ability to perform real-time EQ, listening and reliable measurement.

Throw out a component, and you throw out a lot of time invested. I'm not saying don't do it, just realize what went into the system, be objective about your modifications (like the guys in performance).

 

Wow, thanks Taco. That was an excellent soliloquy. I think I just got sold on the HK system!

 

tacotim-
Excellent, thanks for your opinion. Still people will want to swap out the speakers on the regular sound system or even the speakers from the HK system to get
"a little better sound". I know you thought that it would cost more to do it right but if you had the resources what do you think might work within say a budget of $500 for the regular sound system upgrade (this applies to all of us that didn't have the HK available to us at the time the minis were built) and up to $1000 for those with HK that don't want to spend so much to get an audiophile plus system but just better sound from their HK system's radio/amp/Eq?

That would be valuable info. I'd be interested if you could spare the time. Thanks again.

 

I'm all in favor of making things a little better. Like engine mods without a dyno or good data, you run some risk of making some things worse while making (or trying to make) others better. Audio is tough, because "better" can have a lot to do with taste, and a lot of people like the adventure of a cut and try approach. Even if the adventure of cut and try is what you're looking for, taking a step back to be more objective in you assessment of the results may save you time and money...

Sound quality is most commonly broken down (professionally) into Tonality, Imaging (soundstage), Ambiance and Dynamics (distortion). These can be boken down further into many subcategories, or system attributes. It is commonly agreed "good" tonality has the greatest impact on sound system performance.

I'm lucky to have equipment to quickly, repeatably, and reliably (simple methods to measure frequency response in a car, or other small acoustic space do not reliably assess tonality as you hear it) measure tonality (with a frequency response measurement). Without this equipment, it is still possible to make an assessment, but it depends on you, as a listener, to be careful, and objective. Being objective means not letting the fact that you spent $500 on your aftermarket seperates influence your judegement.

Having a reference for "good sound" is a good first step. If you have a respectable home stereo, this could be it. Next you need source material. Well recorded music that highlights specific frequency ranges will help assess tonality. From experience, most cars will have their biggest problems (most annoying in the long term) in:
1. Voice fundamental region 200-1000 Hz. (This one's key because tone controls don't help)
2. High treble (smoothness and extension)
3. Low to mid bass (smoothness and extension)

I would group 2 and 3 as the same priority. Many people will prioritize 2 and 3 above 1, especially if your musical taste leans toward pop, rock (generally, whatever's on the radio). Even if you're in that camp, don't discount the voice region too much. Having good natural voices can put your bass & treble "in perspective" for a tighter, punchier, more open and balanced sound.

Get some not-so-popular music, with few instruments/voices, preferably acoustic recordings. I'd recommend Steely Dan, Nanci Griffith, Joan Baez, Diana Krall, Ricki Lee Jones, Blues Traveler, Bare Naked Ladies (the last 2 because the vocalists sound unique, though these are a little busy for careful evaluation), recordings of mens choirs, ladies choirs, spoken word. (I know weird stuff). The problem with a lot of pop music is that it's designed to sound good on any system. Lots of compression, lots of over-processed instruments and voices, and generally too much going on in the song to focus on little details. You want material that highlights faults and differences.

Listen to a set of recordings (just a minute per song) over and over on your reference (a good set of headphones for $100 may be better than your home stereo). Pay attention to voices. Now move to your car. Do they sound more "boomy", "nasal", "thin", "closed in", etc.

A "boomy" male voice usually means relatively too much 160-300 Hz.
A "boomy" female voice means too much 400-800.
A "nasal" male voice usually means too much 800-1200 Hz.
A "thin" male voice usually means too little 160-500, or too much 2000 Hz on up.
"closed in" voices usually means too much 200-800 Hz, or too little 2000 hz to 10 kHz.

This is turning into a lot to take in at once. I'll stop with voices, for now, and see where we go next.

Most systems sound boomy on voices, and closed in. My very brief listening impressions (without my trusted source material) of the base system are that it is a little boomy and closed in on the vocals, lacking in treble extension, bass extension, and bass punch. A few clicks (up) of treble helped a lot. But you're stuck on the bass. Turning the bass up makes the voices worse. Down, and you lose low end.

There's really still a lot to cover (more on tonality, Imaging, ambiance, dynamics). Dynamics is a big one for most people. They want the system to play loud, without distortion from the speakers, or the limiting of the radio (often mistaken as distortion fom the speakers). I'll caution that while dynamics stand out in a quick evaluation, while showing off to friends, etc., don't chase it completely at the expense of tonality...

So, I'll stop here and take a stab at the question. What would I do for $500 on the base system. Let's assume that through your evaluations you find out that the voices sound "closed in" and "boomy" or too much 200-800, or too litle 2000 on up. Let's also assume, that like most people you'd like some bass extension and the ability to play a little louder. (Most people, even with so-called refined tastes would). Get an 8" subwoofer in a 5-10 liter sealed box (go ported if you know enough to optimize that design), and a 50-100 watt amp with a low-pass filter. I don't know aftermarket stuff these days, but it would be nice if you can select the low pass frequency 100 hz or below, and adjust the gain.

Now with your boring reference music, adjust the bass and treble controls until the voices sound best. Add the sub, and dial in the gain and crossover, being careful not to mess up your voices. If it means turning the bass down all the way, that's ok, you're effectively limiting the lows to your speakers, and giving yourself dynamic headroom so you can turn it up louder before distortion. Once it all sounds good with your reference material at mid-volume levels, put in the music you like, and see if you'd alter your settings (bass control, and sub controls) for more dynamics, and decide on the best compromise between tonality and dynamics for you...

Like I said, I don't know aftermarket gear or prices, but I'd bet you spent less than $500. I'd also be that some of you don't want to add a sub. The following, is for either case. Before you buy replacement speakers, try a few things to improve the "packaging". The vocal colorations come, in part, from standing waves in the car, based simply on its dimensions. Nothing you can do about those, except put out less sound in those frequency ranges. This is where EQ is great. These colorations also come from vibrating trim, door panels, etc. Finally, the balance between lower midrange (voice fundamentals), and upper midrange (upper voice) can be influenced by speaker grilles.

I haven't had a close look at the base grilles, but the Harman system uses much improved perf metal grilles. The perf metal is much more transparent, and attenuates upper midrange and treble less. If it's within your abilities to modify or replace the speaker grilles, you can try this.

Putting dynamat (or something else heavy-like roofing stuff from home depot) on the back of the door trim, door sheet metal, etc., can reduce vibrations and sound transmissions through/from these parts. Treating these may help.

If you're not the experimental type, and want to replace speakers, do it with your listening evaluations in mind. If you've identified more upper midrange and/or less lower mid, and more low bass as your goal for the front woofers, you need to find a way to assess that. This gets really tricky-if you're not adding a sub. A woofer capable of more bass is likely less efficient (check magnet size), and will have less upper midrange. So, you swap this higher excursion, lower resonance woofer in, but you still hear the distortion because the radio is at its limit, and your vocal coloration problems may get worse, and the system plays quieter (if the speaker is less efficient). It pays to learn a little about speakers. A few key specs are efficiency usually in dB @ 1 watt measured at 1 meter, xmax measured in mm (how far the speaker can stroke before it distorts), and Sd or surface area measured in sq. meters or sq. centimeters (think of this as speaker bore, and xmax its stroke). I don't know about the MINI speakers but typical OEM speakers are 90-95 dB. It's hard to find an aftermarket speaker (better freq. response, more upper mid, more dynamics) with all the improvements you want, and more efficiency. So here is where you ask yourself, if you want all of those things, or some (improvements to the tonality, and leave the bass alone, or improve the bass, and screw your midrange).

Looking back, all of this probably seems discouraging. Sorry, I didn't know I'd go there. If you're not discouraged, I'm willing to answer more. If someone would sacrifice their speaker for a few days, I'd be happy to measure it, and provide the data, which would give us further basis for discussion. If not, I may be able to convince my management we need to buy a set for evaluation. In other words, if we had measured data on the speakers that come with a car, each of you could compare this with data on aftermarket parts to better make your choices.)

 

tacotim-
Thanks very much. I learned alot and then some. I don't think that most of us normal people considered that it was so complicated but that is OK. The ear is a wonderful organ- why not derive some pleasure as we motor along.

The only speakers I have off the car right now are all of the stock speakers. The two rears, the two tweeters and two midranges. I don't have the crossovers from the fronts- not sure where they are- do you need them too?
Do you need all of these or just one of each to test. I don't need them back soon and how would I send them to you.
this would cover the basic sound system- I don't have HK speakers.

Also doesn't alot of this audio performance have to do with how the speakers function within the confines of the sound stage (the car) using the amp that comes with the stock head unit (another limitation). So without having the head unit how much can be gained from testing the speakers? Sure you could find that it has capability or not but the amp that drives the speaker needs to be also tested-right?

As long as it doesn't cost me an arm and a leg I am willing to work with you to get you some material to work with.
Mostly because it is fun to explore and find out more. It gives me a greater appreciation about what I am doing wrong so I don't do it the same bad way again.

OK- so I am ready for more. You are not boring me, although it is technical. lead on.

Let me know what and where on the speakers- if the stock speakers are not worth testing then we can see if anyone might part with their HK speakers to learn more- for the sake of science- Maybe Darksky would because he is thinking of pulling the speakers and replacing them in the HK setup.

 

Sent you an e-mail. Let me know if you get it.

 

Blah Blah Blah. All that engineering and they still messed it up. Everyone I've talked to, including the dealership agrees that HK made the default setting for bass way to high. Also myself and others have heard distortion in front door speaker whether its driver side or passenger. I am going to have them listen to it but it doesnt seem like they will have an answer other than...sorrry thats how it is. Don't get me wrong its not all bad but its not all that great either.

 

>>http://users.exis.net/~rcwomack/mini-hk-stereo.html
>>
>>See what you think.
>>
>>_________________
>>Bradley


THANK YOU Darksy for the link and tacotim for the excellent and highly informative post. I've learned a lot in this particular thread, and want to add this link to another H/K thread that I find much more awash with confusing information, but that has useful pictures of the H/K speakers:
thread with H/K speaker pictures (insides)
The info in the link page as well as tacotims info explains alot in th ebehavior of the H/K system that was not at all clear from other posts, including why it is so hard to move the sound stage back but only in some mmodes. The link explains really well how the rear speakers are dirven in different ways in different modes. I now have the inf I need to tweak the system some more, and I agree, this is a hughly unique system. Maybe not the right one for all ears, but certainly for mine.
I am an amateur when it comes to car audio, but I have developed and built many highly customized home audio systems over the past 30 years, and I would say the MINI H/K system is the car audio system that I am most impressed by of all the ones I have heard. Well worth the $500.
Thanks again for this great thread here!
Markus

 

Question for tacotim and darksky:

based on the images of the H/K speakers in the other H/K thread, we now know that the rear speakers are DVCs. However, I wonder whether they are used / driven in the typical manner of DVCs, in fact, I doubt it. I wonder if one coil is consistently used for the (sub) woofer use of the rear speaker, and the 2nd coil is only used in the modes where the rear speakers are driven as broadbands? Any thoughts? This could affect (significantly in fact) how to replace the H/K speakers with others while keeping the head unit and DSP/amp, if it is even possible to replace them without losing a significant amount of the functionality of the H/K DSP unit.

 

I see folks mentioning that there is no manual for the H/K. Mine came with one: "Owner's Manual - Radio Boost CD" (part number 01 410 156 490). Of course, if you're one of the people that never recieved an owner's manual for your car, odds are you don't have this manual either!

I love the H/K. In my previous car, I had a really nice custom stereo system that ended up costing me around $5,000. Although the H/K can't get quite as loud as the custom deal (such volume is unnecessary, IMHO), the H/K actually beats the custom system in regards to spacial imaging (with the Driver mode ON).

One problem I have, however, is that my speed-compensating volume control seems to do nothing. I have it set to the highest setting (6), but I can't detect any change in volume from when the car is parked, and when it is travelling at 70 MPH - I still have to turn up the volume manually to compensate for road/wind noise. Any thoughts on this? Does anyone else notice any significant effect from the speed compensating volume?

Thanks!

 

My previous post is not meant to disagree with anyone that feels strongly that the system is too boomy, and certainly if it has a buzz, blat or rattle there is a problem that shouldn't make it to production. I am quite often dis-satisfied with a factory audiophile system, even one of my own. My tastes sometimes differ from what satisfies 99% of the people buying the car.

Quite often, though, it comes from system problems inherent to the car, or the packaging of the speakers (relating to trim, grilles, brackets, door cavity). These problems often require significant study, and modification to the vehicle and/or system architecture as a whole to make significant improvments. The system engineer fights for great packaging, and a good system architecture as the vehicle is developed, but ultimately loses some battles along the way.

The aftermarket is then stuck with the resulting speaker locations, grille, door sheet metal, spacers/watershields. For example, the quality of a speaker's enclosure is very important to good bass reproduction, and uncolored upper bass and midrange. Holes in the inner door sheet-metal can cause cancellations of low bass, and accentuate (make louder) upper bass. Too much 60-100 Hz bass can sound very boomy. The door sheet-metal itself can vibrate and cancel bass at some frequencies, and accentuate it at others. These problems will occur with any speaker in that package.

I'm not saying that this is the case with the MINI. I don't know yet. Has anyone measured the speakers? How about taking a close look at the door and cavity for the rear speakers. If anyone has, and the data (on the speaker) shows a high Qes >0.9, or a frequency response curve with a big hump at the bottom, it may be an indicator that a speaker swap may help. Be careful that whatever speaker you swap in, has Qes less than or equal to 0.7, resistance within 1/2 an ohm of the stock speaker, similar sensitivity (within a dB), and a similar frequency response. If you're talking about the rear DVC speaker, you may have more to consider.

Again, when I get my MCS, I plan to test the system and each component, which may lead to better advice, for those who want it.