So if I got an intake would I lose performance then?

 

Any dyno #'s with the K&N Flat Panel?

 

Wow, there is a lot of bad information out there. We tell customers all day long to visit the forums. There is generally very good detailed information to be had. But we do explain that there is some bad info and to do extra research when in dout.

Regarding Intakes in generally and Silicone hoses...... do extra research before you come to any conclusions.

Myth #1 according to some, intakes don't make any power.
-Not sure where this came from, but i think our dyno graphs we have prove that this statment is wrong. We have some from virtually ever type of dyno and hood down and hood up. We have posted these many times before. Our intake when we first dynoed, was done on a Mustang dyno. Known to read low. Our gains were what we claim. And other tests from other vendors showd the same with the hood down.

Myth#2 according to some, 100% sealed box is very important.
-To a point, but with in reason its not. Our Air box has a very small corner exposed which can let some hot air in. Lets say it lets is a crazy 200 degrees. This little 1.5" triangle isn't going make a difference with the large window cowel opening blowing(yes there is pressure created, not just flow here, thanks to Andy for the tests, where is he??) in ambient temp air. Lets just say this change the actual inlet temp by a completely exorbitant 20 degrees. By the time it goes through the SC gets heated up and cooled back down through the IC, the temp change is very minimal. This i what Dr. Obnoxs points out, as does all our other testing on other cars we build parts for.

The HAI may suffer slightly as the temp it sucks in are going to be even warmer. But it may be offset by the slight less restriction of no intake tube.

Myth#3 according to some, Silicone hoses collaspe.
-This one is crazy! If you saw a show on SPike about how a silicone intake collapses on this one application, and how the plastic very can't, all that shows is someones silicone isn't thick enough, isn't the right durometer, or many other factors. One factor is the other end. If there is a huge restriction on the filter end (like putting your hand over it) of course it will start to collapse! So was there a new clean filter? Was the silicone thick enough...... This really isn't a good test.

To give you an example. The ID of the Mini intake hose is 2.75". That is prett large compared to the stock. So less restriction, less vacuum in the hose. Given that these intake see on average 180-200WHP the vacuum it sees is rather small. We make this same basic size intake hose on another application. This application commonly makes 400WHP. On this application, we see roughly -3psi of vacuum, in the intake, while make 400+WHP. They don't collapse?? I belive Andy a long time ago measured roughy .7PSI of vacuum in this hose with his 19% pulley. .7psi is nothing and will not collapse our hose.

So the collapsing is not true in ALTA's case.

Why would someone in the aftermarket industry tell people to not upgrade their car and make their car faster? I hate to say many many software companies say things like this. But they are saying these negative things for the wrong reason. Lets say you make a base map for a car with 15% pulley. It runs great makes a little power. The someone throws on an IC or intake, and now the AFRS are differnt the timing needs to be changed. So instead of making maps for all these changes, telling people intakes don't work is a way to get around this. What they should be saying is that our program is tuned for these parts and changing these parts will result in a map that isn't tuned correctly.

If you could magically intertwine you self into all edges of the ECU programming world you would see the same basic statment. Most say intakes don't work, and some state that there maps are based off certain parts and varying from them will result in an improper tune.

dominicminicoopers is right, to out engineer the OEM depends on what the OEM is trying to accomplish, and what the aftermarket company is trying to accomplish. But to make a statement about how the OEM makes such a good part and how there is no improvment to be made is very bold. Esspecially since there is a whole industry built around improving OEM design.

Does that mean MTH shouldn't be trying to out engineer the ECU, since it is so optimized?? No way, we know this isn't true as there are small gains to be had by ECU flashes. I think if MTH was the person responding here they would be saying different things.

Also for any tuner to say stay off the dyno and tune on the road is showing how they either don't have their own dyno, or one at their disposal, or is telling people to do very dangerous things like drive 100MPH on public streets to tune. This is not something ANY tuner recommends. Road tuning is ok for the normal drivability stuff, but not for real tuning. Its not safe, nor legal!

If anything a proper fan, and proper flow through the radiator and IC are gonig to provide very accurate results on a dyno. In fact once on the road, the car will run better, and make more power. So to see 10WHP on a dyno, turns into more on the road. People shouldn't be scared to use a dyno as with a proper setup, will result in near real world results. So from this we could say our HP numbers we claim could be even higher once on the road.

Also how can a company claim X amount of flywheel HP when there is not a solid way to come up with this. WHEEL HP is the only reasonable way to measure HP. So if people are SO againt Dynos, how is this ENGINE HP proved? On an engine dyno stand? With wind tunnel for air flow? This is very unreasable method of testing for most people.

Many tuners use their experience from other cars to make statements like this. Using NA BMW's,and GT3's, intakes don't do much. Software is where the big gains are had. I have seem many people install $2000 in intakes and exhuast on a M3 and gain 8WHP! But when software is applied, BAM, the big gains are had. So with this said i can see them saying things like this relating to the Mini, using other cars as experience. But i think we have as well as many others proven this wrong.

I am not trying DOG anyone here, but telling people the correct info. With that i think there is plenty of evidence to show this is all correct. Alta performance is not in the business to sell items that don't do what we claim. It seems as though some companies have put a bad taste in peoples mounths regarding claims. As cars get more and more technical, so do the customers. Anymore, Companies can't make claims of 100HP from and intake with out a customer going out and proving this.

Sorry for the long message, it just is a little disheartening reading such awefull information. And i feel like ALTA has to stand up for all the intakes out there.

 

I am *still* receiving pm’s and numerous e-mail’s from upset NAMer’s concerning things I never, ever said in this thread and I don’t know why. Since you are not reading the thread correctly I will take some time to clarify.
-What I was asked was what is MTH’s position concerning intakes. My answer was that a K&N flat panel filter is recommended.
-I was asked about dyno’s. I responded to read what BBR-GTi and Banks Engineering has to say about them. I didn’t add some of my own dyno experience but they include: Yamaha (I was an endurance racer and when we raced at Suzuka we saw the inner workings), Andial (My mechanic was and employee before the days he hired Randy Webb. I traveled to their facility twice to see how they built my race engines), DynoJet (after FUSA races the top 3 bikes had to be tested), and Roush Racing (They were Dartfish’s first racing contract. I have been around their facility a few times and have seen how they dyno their cars). Manufactures use proper dyno’s and testing facilities. It is hard to out-engineer them with inferior equipment.
-I was asked about collapsing silicone air tubes. I never mentioned Alta. I use Alta products! It happens to the best of car such as the Ford GT40. That is how Ford got into the thread.
-I never said the air tube worked under pressure.
-I never said the filter was the restriction.
-I understand the most important thing is air density. I just think a better way to achieve it is with an improved IC than a filter-on-a-stick attached to the TB.
-I never said the air box couldn’t be improved. It is my opinion that the bottleneck on the Mini is the small exhaust valve (but did not bash Mini/BMW, I just noted this fact). I therefore think it is best to improve the exhaust, programming, and head before the intake.
-I never said the factory does the best job.
-I never asked any vendor to chime in.
-I (or MTH) never said that the majority of the enthusiasts on NAM simply bought bunch of "BS." I gave my ideas concerning what to change on the engine and when. I’m actually most concerned with setup because that was what I did as a racer. The engines on my bike came from the factory and I worked with my engineers on setting up the suspension.
-If you want tunablity more so than MTH get MOTEC.

 

Roland at GT Tuning in England has made some good measuremets on intakes...... His results are posted here...

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...12&postcount=8

Basically, he found quite a restriction with the stock airbox, to the tune of over one PSI at the SC intake.... And it can be eliminated as well....

Matt

 

MTH's (new) position on CAI’s is that, yes indeed, they do work better than the stock box.

 

good ole' NAM.. sigh..

Don't ever say anything negative about something BIG like intakes.. EVEN if someone asked you what is your OPINION about it is...

 

Roland made some very good measurements. And others learned from it. All in all, a very good day.

Matt

 

Why not slightly improve your stock airbox DIY?

 

Just like what I have in mind, except I plan to fit a cone filter into the upper portion of the air box. Sort of like what Roland from GTT did for the JCW box.

 

 

I'm sorry but .... no sh%t

 

but the only place to realize its true benefit is on the track. At no other time or place are you at WOT and high RPMs for such extended periods. You probably would never notice the performance difference on the street, you’d just hear the sound difference.

 

well, now i know why i still come and look at NAM, speculators and speculations. Makes me wonder why MTH take this much beating?

 

If your talking about me... I have owned 4 different intakes and run dynos on them and have seen power and torque curves on all of them and of course have driven my car with them installed and.......and....and.....and hardly what I would call speculation...I believe the word is empirical....all due respect

 

So is the guy talk thread still alive.

 

I did the hot air mod, removed the back piece of the air box and my car felt the same acutally slower, i am already running a 15% so i was immune to the extra sc whine.

 

How about some quantitative data; hook op the diagnostic tool and measure the temp and quantity of air into the engine; just as or cooler than stock with more airflow and then you've got a model that is better in actual preformance. Not to say that there aren't other things further on down the line that may prevent these gains from being felt but if some could please show us some #s that would be much appreciated.

 

Nothing scientific but yesterday at Watkins Glen with a Madness CAI instead of the stock box with a K&N I was able to see 800 more RPM's in 5th gear at the entrance to the inner loop. And I'm flat out from the apex of one (no lift at all).

 

This just in...See Roland's posts:
http://www.mini2.com/forum/engine-dr...take-hose.html

 

roland is referencing collapse on a different car! No one has yet to show a hose collapse on a Mini. I also think that since the Mini path is short, and bent, that it would be very hard for a hose with descent wall thickness to collapse on our cars. I haven't heard of it happening ever.

Matt

 

I was simply noting that it does happen on cars and that there are problems with aftermarket tubes because of the lack of step. And that is what Roland was noting as well -- the stock works best.