I feel you on that. I just recently reactivated facebook and I'm already tired of the nonsense

 

Taking your advice @Eddie07S. -2.5 in the rear and -3 upfront.

 

You should have fun with -3 up front. Don’t be surprised if your temps still come out a little uneven; that is the way MINIs are. Much more than -3 and you will loose braking. I look for how far over the tire rolls over and look to have it just a tad less than the edge of the tire.

You can alway dial the rears back a little. I am one to error on the side of caution when starting out. See how the tires look after some hard track driving. There will be a lot of pickup on the inside of the rears, but even here it is the roll to the outside edge that I look for.

 

I saw your post about taking a ride with friends and how much you liked the front sway bar. Is that new? Or did I miss or forget a post? Same as my setup...

None the less, yes, that is absolutely a vital part of making these cars handle well and it is amazing how much of an improvement there is with that installed. It improves so many thing. A big factor is how it improves the chamber for the front wheels. Less body roll, less loss of camber in a turn. Less body roll, the more stable the car. And the list goes on. It is no wonder that is what MINI did with each of their suspensions; progressively larger front and rear bars to improve handling.

Driving style and technique now becomes very important. In particular, braking. This is a car that will be very neutral and will have little response to throttle input. Throttle induced rotation (sharp lift off from the throttle) will be hard to do because it won’t induce the weight transfer necessary to cause the rotation. This is where braking comes in. In particular trail braking. Trail brake as deep into corners as you can. Sharp/hard braking for a short straightline distance and then turn in, while gradually releasing the brakes. This is late braking at its best. This will set the front of the car to the ground, which will improve front camber. You will be able to now carry huge speed into the corners this way.

Be careful to not over brake before the apex. Getting on the throttle before the apex will cause the car to understeers (the bane of FWD) and you will no longer have the throttle to help correct that. Accept the understeer in that case... There will also be corners that you will be to do nothing about the understeer (Lime Rock T2.... Ugh) because of that. But you will find that you will gain a lot in all of the other corners that a little loss in one corner won’t make a difference. You may also find that going over curbing on corners upsets the car more, watch for that. These are all trade offs but in the long run, I believe you went in the right direction.

As you have already found, the car is now planted and drives like it is on rails. Out on the track, it will be a joy to drive.

Motor On! And Enjoy!

PS - Your car looks great! Looking forward to your track report.

 

I added the H&R FSB before my last track event, but I was so impressed with it this weekend that I had to point it out again I’m not one for going out to the “twisties” and apex hunting, but damn was it fun. The car just holds the road.

Re: trail braking you are so right! Before I added the bigger bar, braking was a straight line activity. I really started dipping my toes into trail braking the last time I visited Road Atlanta. And like you pointed out earlier, I was not running nearly enough camber. After this weekend, I am feeling really confident about Roebling.

I had a shower thought about the larger front bar paired with a larger rear bar. My first weekend at Road Atlanta I over cooked turn one, too hard on the brakes, too late of a turn in and the rear started to rotate to the left, I corrected, tried to get back on throttle and it rotated the rear back to the right. Like all the way right. I came within 12 inches of the pit wall, but somehow the car corrected and we stayed in one piece. After installing the larger bar the rear is a lot more predictable and controllable. I can grab third as I turn in to turn seven and get on the throttle quick to ride the understeer out to the kerbs. Totally transforms the car. I still have a lot to learn, but I feel like I am getting a really good grasp of the technical side of things.

 

It is a learning process.

Let me know if am getting too preachy and this is too much, but you seem to be interested in learning what I have learned...

Trail braking and just a big rear sway bar compound each other in that they both reduce traction in the rear of the car. At some point in increasing both (eg: increased rear roll stiffness plus more aggressive trailbraking) will lead to over rotation in a corner and the back end coming around. Most people will straight line brake because they can’t control that transition to oversteer with that setup.

The roll bar works to reduce traction at the end of the car it is installed in and will increase traction at the opposite end of the car. So, on a FWD car the RSB adds traction to the front wheels by moving weight from the outside front tire to the inside front tire. It does this by reducing weight on the inside rear wheel; hence the three wheeling the car will do. When that tire is in the air, the weight of those parts is no longer being supported by the tire and is picked up by putting that weight on the inside front wheel. Of course that is the extreme and this weight transfer is in proportion to the roll of the car, up to the point the wheel comes off the ground.

Trail braking transfers weight to the front wheels, increasing their traction and reducing traction on the rear wheels. In doing so, it also increases camber of the front wheels which further increases the traction of the front wheels and reduces camber on the rear wheels, further reducing traction at the rear wheels.

See where this is going... A double reduction of traction in the rear and little traction to keep it from coming around.

Here is where the big front sway bar comes in and how it permits heavy trail braking. Under braking you still get the weight transfer to the front and the camber benefit. But the bigger front bar now balances the weight transfer so the rear doesn’t loose traction. Well, not as easily.

But, you don’t get something for nothing. With the larger front bar, there is a loss in inside front wheel traction and it is harder to put power down. Hence the need for a good LSD.

Just a note... Sway bars came into being in the 1950s with the rear wheel drive cars as a way to get more power down with the rear wheels and reduce inside wheel spin. Now the larger FSB will create understeer, just as it does in FWD. However, now with the ability to get power down, that understeer can be controlled with a bit of power on oversteer. This is the reason that with a big tail slide in a RWD car, it is corrected by reducing throttle input. That removes the primary reason for the slide; power overloaded rear tires.

In a FWD car, if the back end starts to come around it is caused by a traction loss due to something other than engine power. So getting off the power will actually exacerbate the situation. Getting off the power moves weight forward, adding traction to the front wheels and further reducing traction on the rear wheels, which adds further to the oversteer. This is the reason that, in a FWD, you need to get on the power with a rear wheel slide. It moves weight to the rear wheels and adds traction. It does not pull you around. NO. Power on will always create understeer, but it will improve rear wheel traction and help to correct that tail slide oversteer.

Also, remember, when you are dealing with all of this with a FWD tail slide, that increasing steering angle will reduce front wheel traction. So, actually a little reduction in steering angle may help to gain traction in the front and that may help to pull the car around... Yes, I know, that wall is coming up fast.

One of the biggest benefits I have found to balancing a big RSB with a big FSB is coming upon someone in a no brake high speed corner and they all of a sudden brake... Check up... I don’t have to worry about loosing the back end in the middle of that turn when I then get off the gas and on the brakes. At 103 mph in the middle of the esses at WGI and the guardrails are only 2’ off the sides of the track, that has a real big pucker factor...

This got to be a little long... Hope it is not too much...

 

Great information, as usual @Eddie07S !

I enjoy the light reading

 

I grew up in the NE here driving a ‘66 327 4 barrel station wagon, in the snow and ice, and learned a lot (we invented drifting... ) that needed to be unlearned when I started to track the MINI. But I also found that old, well ingrained, habits die hard...

 

Track prep is underway. Replaced the fuel filter and accessory belt today. Brake fluid, and oil are due tomorrow. Lost another auxiliary water pump last night. A friend suggested that it may be heat related. At least the replacement will be free (FCP Euro is amazing). Hopefully the replacement will be here by Thursday otherwise it will have to wait until after Roebling.

 

Hope it goes well!

If you have to wait to put in the Aux water pump, when you come in off the track turn on the AC which should kick on the fan, then, when you stop, let the engine run a bit for the oil to cool down a bit. My oil, per the ScanGage read about 250 deg on the track and about 220 deg on the road. When my aux pump went I restarted the engine a few minutes after turning it off and let it run a minute or 2 to flush new oil through the turbo. My thought on doing it that way was to keep oil from cooking in the turbo.

When my aux pump went, I pulled the louvers off the fan shroud. It didn’t seem that heat was the issue with my aux pump and the replacement has been fine for a while now. It will be interesting as to how well this replacement does.

 

Good advice as always

I may just "borrow" the auxiliary water pump from my son's R60 while I wait. Since this is the fourth time I've changed it, I'm going to look into moving it so that its a really quick switch next time

 

I've been kicking around the idea of adding wider fender arches to allow for a little more clearance of the tires. I get pretty good rubbing on the trim and the fender liners. This was an issue back when I had the 17x7 with 205/45s and with the 17x8 and 225/45 it has only gotten worse. I had initially decided that I would remove the trim, cut the sheet metal as close as possible to the arch mounting points, and then add after market flares.

However, after looking at photos from Eddie's trip to Lime Rock something occurred to me. If I cut the sheet metal, i will be leaving a rather sharp edge just inches above my tire. Rather than cut, why not bend? It worked on the E36, surely it'll work here, right?

I removed the arches today and proceeded to bend the lip of the sheet metal up and out away from the tire. Since I don't have a fender roller (not certain that would even work here) I used the good ol' rubber mallet to get a little more space. I think it turned out okay, the goal was to keep the metal away from the tire, and that's been achieved. Well see how it looks once I've finished all of the pre-weekend prep.




Ugly, but it works.

 

You’re the man. This looks great and I’m on the edge of my seat to see the rub results

I’ve been too chicken to trim&roll my R53 sheet metal, and thusly, I was just about to pull the trigger on a 16x8 / 205 setup when I reallllly prefer 225. I’m gonna think on it a bit more now.

Not that you decided to go with a fender kit.. but which fender kit did you have your eye on? I’m struggling to find a pvc set I like. Fiberglass is a no go for me (and I assume you, seeing as it’s a track you and all).

 

@Tragesaurusrex thanks man!

I was looking at Clinched or some of the generic flares on eBay. I talked to some guys that race an R56 in Champ Car and they said they’re using eBay flares. I had considered RSIC6, but price, the fiberglass, and the way they mount drove me away. Okay, it was mostly the price

 

From my experience, the rubbing occurs in the rear wheel well. The R53 appears to have the most room back there of all 3 MINI generations. Typically I have seen 8x15” wheels on the R53 sporting 225-45 tires with no problems. The wheel many used was a 949 wheel, but that might be out of production now from notes I have seen. But that might be a way to go without a lot of body work...

I know that “wider is better”, but I seem to do well with 205-50x15s on my R56, as long as you can get by the looks of have a 2” air gap between the top of the tire and the bottom of the wheel well arch...

 

Nice work “rolling” those fenders out...

What offset were your 7x17” wheels and what offset do the 8” wheels have”? Sorry if you said already...

I had 225-45x17 on 7” wheels with a 45mm offset on my R56 and had little rubbing. However, I found that was no faster than the 215-45x17 on 38mm offset wheels. Maybe not enough front camber, though, to take advantage of the wider and stickier tire.

 

OK... Found the answer to my own question:
1st post... Hmmmm - I would have guessed that, with an ET of 45, would have been an OK fit based on what I saw on my car... Just goes to show, there are differences and things are tight in there.

It will be interesting to see how you make out... As long as the tire doesn't touch metal...

 

The metal contact is what I was afraid of. There has been just a little contact right on the rear edge. After the tires wore through the fender liner and auto trimmed the arch, the ever so slightly started to remove paint from the sheet metal. Now that I have folded the metal out and gotten rid of the sharp edge, hopefully the contact should be minimized or removed all together.

I think the +45 would fit depending on the suspension. On the front, the KW's adjustment ring/spring perch/whatever is very nearly in contact with the tire (5mm ). If I go lower, it will contact the wheel, if I go higher, it looks and feels like a Tacoma . Since my adjustable camber plates are due for a rebuild, I went ahead and got the next level plates from Ireland Engineering. The new plates will make the car sit an inch lower, so that gives some options. Adjust up to the height I am at now and gain an inch of suspension travel, or lower to the length that I'm currently at and get a lower car. Lower is usually better for the track, but I have some decisions to make. The good thing is I'll no longer have to worry about the tire contacting that spring perch and snapping the strut.

Luckily there are no issues in the back with contact on the rear trailing arm.

 

It seems every car is slightly different. Plus I am comparing my 225 on 7” wheels to your 225s on 8” wheels. I had slight sidewall to inner fender metal rub with the 38mm offset wheels. With the 45mm offset wheels I had rub on the fender liner but not metal. With the 8” wheels, you have moved the sidewall out a bit; ~0.25” on each side. That is about the same as I moved the tire inboard going from the 38 to 45 mm offset. So, the outboard edge of your tire on the 8” wheel is about where i was with the 38mm wheels. Hope that makes sense. Not sure the tire width numbers are truly correct; likely just estimates that may be large. Anyway, the number fall into what you are seeing... This was more of a thought exercise for me given what I am going through with the JCW and how tight it is. I am struggling to find the wheels I want and even at that I am not sure everything will fit.. Ugh

 

I swear for every twenty minutes on track, you are going to spend a minimum of two hours either the week before or the week after doing maintenance. Definitely a trade I’m willing to make.


This week I replaced the accessory belt (lasted 107k) and fuel filter. Changed the oil and brake fluid. Replaced the 75mm wheel studs with 80mm, replaced the Ireland Engineering street camber plates with race plates, replaced the home made poly bush (the was a fun and ultimately a failed experiment) in the engine stabilizer link with a new bush from BSH. I enlarged the holes at the top of the front strut mount to allow for more camber (still need to cut more out). I was having some rubbing issues (225’s on 17x8 will do that on an R56) so I removed the fender arches and bent the sheet metal out to allow for more clearance. I also removed and cleaned the KWs, lowered the car back to track height and did a quick alignment. All ready for Roebling Road this weekend.










This is actually a lot better than it looks. The spring perch is now above the tire. Before it was right next to the sidewall.

 

You know it! That is what it takes to have fun...

Have fun at Roebling...



PS: I got only ~35k out of my accessory belt before it needed replacement. On my first R56 it broke at 32k in the middle of a snow storm during a ski trip to Northern VT. I carry one with me to the track just in case and replace it at 30k whether it needs it or not.

 

This was my first time at RRR. I started Saturday averaging 1:44. As they day progressed, I managed to shave a few seconds here and there. My last session on Saturday I had an instructor on board. He helped me refine my line. Brake later, turn in a tad earlier, track out. Sunday’s first session was in the rain and I managed a 1:29. Once it dried out, I was averaging 1:26s. This feels like a solid improvement. My optimal lap was a 1:24, so without traffic I could probably do that or better. Either way, I’m happy. I learned a new track and gave the car a good shake down with the new interior. So today it’s back to the usual post track exercise. The car is on jack stands and I’m inspecting everything and replacing the auxiliary water pump.

Throughout the weekend oil temp was between 219 and 240. Cold Tire pressure was 28F & 30R felt stable. Would generally be 34 hot front and rear. I could probably reduce the cold PSI front and rear, but I found that I was using all of the tread and not rolling onto the side wall, so it works.

The floaty-ness that I experienced at Road Atlanta is totally gone. I was hitting 130+ on the front straight with no problem and the car felt very stable. I attribute this to the Ireland Engineering camber plates. I upgraded to the “stage 3” race plates. These plates are an inch shorter, which allowed to lower the ride height another inch without contacting the spring perch on the KWs. This allowed the front end to have a little more rake and kept the nose planted. Looking at photos from Road Atlanta I can clearly see that the front lip was angled upward slightly. I believe this is what caused the lift at speed.


Take away:

Need more front camber. I’ll have to trim the strut towers a little more to get that magical 3 degrees.

The rolling and bending of the fenders fixed the rubbing issues. The plastic and the fender liner self trimmed a little, but that's to be expected. I didn't hear any hard rubbing and I have not seen any evidence of it.

The larger front bar really allows you to manage understeer and work slip angle to track out. Oversteer is gone. Car rotates controllably.

The HP+ are sufficient for this track and my ability. You really only brake hard at T1, the other points (T3, T4, T5 and T6) just need a quick stab at the brakes.

 

Congrats!
For learning a new track and for hitting the mark on your car build.

Also, thanks for posting about the large front sway bar. There are so many people who believe that the opposite happens. But the reality is, it makes for a really well balanced car that can be driven fast without fighting with it.

A lot of times I will have an instructor in the car. Usually early when I am at a track event. I do this even at a track I know. Sometimes I will come away with a tidbit that goes into the old notebook.

A suggestion - Add caster instead of more camber. You can do this by slotting the mounting bolt holes (slots) in the shock tower. You will want to slot them towards the rear of the car. When front wheels are turned, they loose camber. Caster adds camber back when you turn the steering wheel. In other words, caster becomes camber in a turn. This is another thing that the MINI world misses out on because of conventional wisdom. Here is a person who is now a believer.

 

Thanks, Eddie!

Having an instructor onboard is so important! Afterwards its like an audio tape playing in my head. It's been a challenge with COVID, but it looks like they are loosening up. As long as we both agreed to accept the risk, it was a non-issue.

I'll look into slotting the towers. I had considered buying the FCAB bushes that add caster, but I'm not really feeling dropping the sub frame anytime soon

 

If those LCAB are the ones I think they are, they will get you about 0.5 deg, with a lot of hard work, and they are not adjustable. You should be able to get 0.3 to 0.6 with slots. If I remember correctly, the slots that run inboard to outboard are about 0.3 deg for reference. So, about 0.25 of actual movement of the strut is about 0.3 deg. You might be able tell better with your camber plates as to how much you can get. Also, with slots you should be able to set both the same. Just something to think about...