When you digitialize something and then try to compress it, you can end up with something called artifacts. Check out JPEGs or MPEGs and notice the small distorions in the image. The more you compress the more artifacts you can find. Now I might be going just slightly crazy, but I swear I can hear "artifacts" in the sound from the digital audio system. To my untrained ears, some CD's or certain songs can make more of these "artifacts" than others, just like some types of images can make diffent quality and quantity of artifacts in a JPEG at the same compression ratio. Some of these artifacts sound like minor distortions. Others sounds like major distortions in the treble or the bass, making it sounds like a quick vibration. Do you guys think this holds any merit, or am I just a happy Martian?

 

I won't do a reference comparison until my H/K is broken-in, but just barely paying attention I've noticed some dynamic compression with lots of dither and artifacts. This is most noticable with simple waveforms (aka "minimal" electronica). This is with the DSP set on "MINI h/k" which I'm guessing is the least screwed up of the series. MINI or H/K have provided NO data on what the soundfields change
My first guess for this poor digital performance is simply a garbage processor and/or poor code.

I'll be able to provide more accurate analysis in the future.
Cheers,
Ryan

_________________
Wisdom is not a function of age, but a function of experience.
*Keeper of the CWFAC list*

 

Still pounding your head on this H/K system I see, dominicminicoopers.

You are correct that distortions can be introduced in the process of compressing a CD source to mpg, but it is typically more a case of choppy transitions due to extracted (discarded) digital information than an introduction of stray artifacts. But in the H/K system, no compression is going on. The H/K system does however employ digital to analog conversion (DAC); probably too much of it, unfortunately.

I beleive the system uses speaker level analog outputs from the head unit (HU) to the amplifier dsp unit (ADU). So that means that when you listen to a CD, the digital source is converted to an analog signal, amplified, and sent from the HU to the ADU. At the ADU the analog signal is converted back to digital, processed digitally to add the sound contouring. Then the digital signal is converted again to analog before being amplified and sent to the speakers. That's three trips through a DAC, and two amplifications; each with the opportunity to add distortion. The amount of distortion added will depend on the quality of the DAC and amplifier, and it is cumulative. This is probably what you are hearing.

Now there is a remote chance I'm wrong about the speaker level outputs. The ideal would be a straight digital output from the HU to the ADU. Then there would only be one DAC and one amplification. But I've not read of anyone yet who's ripped into the H/K system to really diagnose it's operation and such a difference would likely require a totally different HU than the standard system; so I think I'm right.

You claim to have "untrained" ears, but you seem to find more of the weaknesses and faults of the H/K system than anyone else in these forums. Perhaps you have more sensitive and discriminating ears than you think. The H/K system satisfies a very large percentage of listeners, but you may be just the type who would truly appreciate a good high-end system. I know it would be hard to swallow after spending $550 on the H/K, but dropping $2500, give or take, on a custom system designed and tuned exactly to your tastes might prove much more satisfying in the long run.

Again, best of luck to you.

James

 

>>You claim to have "untrained" ears, but you seem to find more of the weaknesses and faults of the H/K system than anyone else in these forums.

Listened to classical music until I was 15, then was introduced to light rock and electronic music for a few years. Changed tastes to metal (heavy, speed, mosh) for a few years. Then it was a rash of contemporary music followed by a lot of smooth jazz. Now I listen to it all (yes, even including country

As far as other people in this forum, I think others have seen many the same things as I have heard. Vibrations, bass, artifacts, etc. Some who once loved the H/K, like ant, now think it does have too much bass. So maybe I'm just the one who compains the most about it.

All things considered, the H/K is still a good value for 550 USD. I don't think there's much in the aftermarket that will raise the overall sound quality of stock to the level of the H/K.

 

Hey Dominic, went to the dealership and they are going to take a look at it monday. Hopefully the vibration will see its last days then. In my opinion the electronic setting is far and away the best. HK setting sounds like its holding back. I never use HK. Once in a while i check just to make sure and electronic always sounds better

 

Help!

 

pooky, a bit off-topic, but close enough.

The base-stereo in the MINI's is of decent quality for an OEM system. The H/K is of very good quality for OEM, and is definitely worth the money. Most likely, the drivers are from Harman International origin (this is a logical deduction).

---> Weaver, interesting proposal on Electronic sounding "best". I wish MINI or Harman disclosed the exact DSP settings among the soundfields! I may do a preliminary reference comparison tomorrow and get back to you guys. I'll be doing listening only at a standstill, in my garage, engine off, using the exact same track between my reference system (my high-end home stereo using loudspeakers I developed) and the MINI, at very similar volumes. Doing a quick A/B brings out the worst in a poorly engineered audio system

Cheers,
Ryan

 

Preliminary Review of the Harman/Kardon stereo in the MINI:

I used multiple tracks as experiment constants; the first being Keb’ Mo’ and his self-titled first album, track 5 “Angelina”; the second being Zero 7 and their album Simple Things, track 8 “In The Waiting Line”. Each track is very well recorded, and is among my Master Reference track collections. The Reference stereo is my home stereo, consisting of a Pioneer 414, Rega Mira, loudspeakers of my own design (a three piece system consisting of passive 2-way bookshelves and an active woofer), Straightwire Serenade cables, and a Monster Power conditioner. I forget where I got my isolation cones (oops). The control room is a 14’x10’ with the loudspeakers set-up in a Golden Cuboid configuration (which is theoretically perfect, btw).
My MY2003 MINI Cooper S has only 337 miles on it, which is about 11.2 hours of running time. I understand this is typically insufficient time for a system break-in, hence this being only a preliminary evaluation. In my experience, drivers require anything from 4 hours to 50 hours of break-in time before reaching a relative steady-state performance. In contrast, the Reference loudspeakers are about 4 years old, and have been broken-in for many years! The configuration for the MINI H/K goes as follows: Bass –2; Treble +4; Balance 0; Fader 0; DSP set to MINI h/k; Driver ON; engine off, HVAC off, and the car in a very quiet surrounding environment (an approximate exterior noise floor of 30dB).
The initial notes of the H/K system were fundamental; the soundstaging was horribly skewed towards the literal center of the vehicle, and not Driver-centric. Adjusting the Balance and Fader only smeared the stag, so they were reset to “0”. In terms of frequency response, the MINI H/K lacks a few dB of midrange output between 500Hz and 2kHz, has big peaks in the mid/bass region between 80Hz and 200Hz, has a small lower treble spike around 5kHz-8kHz, and also lacks response in the upper half octave (16kHz-20kHz). It seems that most people have found the “bass” to be too out-of-control on the H/K, and this tends to be an amateurs conclusion, there is much going on here. The H/K does not have much low-frequency displacement. Because of this, the engineers thought they could compensate by adjusting the properties of the mid/bass region. That 80-200Hz range has been boosted significantly, and although not too harmonically distorted, the woofers do seem to have a high Q, resulting in a sloppy, slightly out-of-control sound that many are commenting on.
Some personal comments; the MINI H/K has acceptable overall resolution for an OEM car system, however in a direct A/B comparison with very-high-resolution home loudspeakers, the difference is quite obvious. The soundstaging is OK, but its’ non-driver-centric alignment is distracting because it is not accurate to our perception. It is like listening to a band with your head turned to the side! The midrange is the big resolution downfall of the system; using sloppy high-Q woofers as midranges is a bad idea, always. The tweeters, although of reasonable quality, still sound like polymer balanced domes, are too sibilant, can’t handle transients precisely, and are generally flat sounding. The head-unit has limited adjustability, and the stuff it can adjust don’t fix the problems at hand, but add more. Among the DSP settings, MINI h/k was the most neutral; Electronic boosted the bass and treble too much, and the Spatial, Instrumental, Festival just screwed everything up <--- best for entertainment while in the drive-thru!

[I hope this helped out!][I'll do another when the H/K is broken-in]
Cheers,
Ryan

 

>>When you digitialize something and then try to compress it, you can end up with something called artifacts. Check out JPEGs or MPEGs and notice the small distorions in the image. The more you compress the more artifacts you can find. Now I might be going just slightly crazy, but I swear I can hear "artifacts" in the sound from the digital audio system. To my untrained ears, some CD's or certain songs can make more of these "artifacts" than others, just like some types of images can make diffent quality and quantity of artifacts in a JPEG at the same compression ratio. Some of these artifacts sound like minor distortions. Others sounds like major distortions in the treble or the bass, making it sounds like a quick vibration. Do you guys think this holds any merit, or am I just a happy Martian?
>>
>>


Interesting idea!
I wonder, whether some of these artifacts might 'reside' on the CDs rather than being generated by the HK system?
One way to find out is to listen to the same spot that appears to have artifacts, in different settinsg of the HK sound processor (Mini H/K, festival, instrumental, electronic, etc..). I woudl assume that if the artifacts are HK generated, they would CHANGE with processor settings, but if they are on the CD they would still be there - although they would sound differently.
I have not really noticed any, but will listen more intently.
If you can test this, dominicoooper, would you please let us know?
TIA,
Markus