Suspension Rear Sway Bar
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6th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: New Jersey
What's this for? Where does it go? And forget autoX - why would an enthusiastic MINI Motorer want this? What benefits would there be for "normal" driving. I noticed this on Randy's site and have heard the talk but never really paid much attention.
Thanks.
Thanks.
pug poo picker-upper
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From: California
5th Gear
Joined: Sep 2002
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Hi there,
As someone who has purchased it I'll tell you that the change is very dramatic. Someone said that it makes the car turn from the center of the car. I'd say that's pretty good at describing it. It didn't really change the ride of the car except for when you enter a driveway. You tend to lift the inside wheel.
You can go side to side and there is VERY little lean at all. It's really cool!
I bought it because I wanted "a little more" and I can tell you this bar gives you a LOT more. :smile: (It's a good thing)
I think Randy and others will caution you on this: The car WILL handle differently; especially on the stiff setting. 4 wheel slides are no problem but for the faint of heart or inexperienced I'd say be careful.
The stock bar is much more forgiving and you'll get more notice/warning before the tail comes loose.
If you're reasonably mechanically inclined and have some tools you can handle it.
We did it in 2.5 hours but that included a run to Sears for a couple of tools.
Hope this helps and feel free to contact me if you have any questions!
-Jim
_________________
"Mjolnir" | Dark Silver MCS, Black roof - stripes, all 3 packages, 17" wheels. | Madison, WI
"It's not just a passion, it's an obsession!"
<IMG SRC="http://mcs.maximus-consulting.com/gr....jpg">
As someone who has purchased it I'll tell you that the change is very dramatic. Someone said that it makes the car turn from the center of the car. I'd say that's pretty good at describing it. It didn't really change the ride of the car except for when you enter a driveway. You tend to lift the inside wheel.
You can go side to side and there is VERY little lean at all. It's really cool!
I bought it because I wanted "a little more" and I can tell you this bar gives you a LOT more. :smile: (It's a good thing)
I think Randy and others will caution you on this: The car WILL handle differently; especially on the stiff setting. 4 wheel slides are no problem but for the faint of heart or inexperienced I'd say be careful.
The stock bar is much more forgiving and you'll get more notice/warning before the tail comes loose.
If you're reasonably mechanically inclined and have some tools you can handle it.
We did it in 2.5 hours but that included a run to Sears for a couple of tools.
Hope this helps and feel free to contact me if you have any questions!
-Jim
_________________
"Mjolnir" | Dark Silver MCS, Black roof - stripes, all 3 packages, 17" wheels. | Madison, WI
"It's not just a passion, it's an obsession!"
<IMG SRC="http://mcs.maximus-consulting.com/gr....jpg">
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,241
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From: USA
It is cheaper than a limited slip and it probably won't break. The
reason for it, I believe, is to improve front wheel traction
in corners. The S has an incredible amount of wheelspin when you
power out of a corner. A stiffer rear sway bar prevents this. For
daily driving unnecessary. Autocrossing a must. Road racing, like
I said, cheaper than a limited slip which is ideal. The weight transfer
in high speed cornering lessens the front wheel slip. If I've totally
confused you, stick around, someone will answer.
reason for it, I believe, is to improve front wheel traction
in corners. The S has an incredible amount of wheelspin when you
power out of a corner. A stiffer rear sway bar prevents this. For
daily driving unnecessary. Autocrossing a must. Road racing, like
I said, cheaper than a limited slip which is ideal. The weight transfer
in high speed cornering lessens the front wheel slip. If I've totally
confused you, stick around, someone will answer.
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,253
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From: NY NY
thestiffer rear sway bar will induce oversteer to correct a built -in understeer. it also reduces body roll in turns. not the same as a limited slip, which reduces differential wheelspin under power. with the bar, you can crank faster and tighter though a turn simply because you can control the car direction better; with a LSD, you can use more power when doing it.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 449
Likes: 0
From: Export, Pa
I think what's going to help everybody out here is if someone who has driven with both settings could describe the handling for each. I'm installing the bar on my car very soon (with H&R springs also) and have a list of people who want me to do theirs. It would be good to understand the handling so I can match settings to driver style. I suspect that DaveinDenver has driven both settings.
Graham Chandler
Graham Chandler
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,241
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From: USA
>>thestiffer rear sway bar will induce oversteer to correct a built -in understeer. it also reduces body roll in turns. not the same as a limited slip, which reduces differential wheelspin under power. with the bar, you can crank faster and tighter though a turn simply because you can control the car direction better; with a LSD, you can use more power when doing it.
Simplicity. Someone who doesn't know what a heavier swaybar does
probably doesn't understand the terms oversteer or understeer or for
that matter what an apex is. Expound....
I was recently at a motorcycle driving school and was amazed that
people didn't understand when the instructor when talking about turns
said, "Outside, inside, outside." We were walking the track so I quick
stepped through the turn.
Hmmm. More power in the turn. Same as faster I think.
Simplicity. Someone who doesn't know what a heavier swaybar does
probably doesn't understand the terms oversteer or understeer or for
that matter what an apex is. Expound....
I was recently at a motorcycle driving school and was amazed that
people didn't understand when the instructor when talking about turns
said, "Outside, inside, outside." We were walking the track so I quick
stepped through the turn.
Hmmm. More power in the turn. Same as faster I think.
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Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
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From: Denver
>>I think what's going to help everybody out here is if someone who has driven with both settings could describe the handling for each. I'm installing the bar on my car very soon (with H&R springs also) and have a list of people who want me to do theirs. It would be good to understand the handling so I can match settings to driver style. I suspect that DaveinDenver has driven both settings.
>>
>>Graham Chandler
I have done testing with both settings.
The rear (less stiff) setting is a very nice upgrade from stock. The understeer is just about gone - the car is very neutral. You can't induce oversteer quite as easily as in the stiffer setting, but it's a "safer" setting.
The forward (stiffer) setting is where I prefer it. The car is easily driven with the throttle, the car "turns form the center", and snap-throttle oversteer isn't at a dangerous level - but it can be done. Four wheel drifts are nice too.
The traction is helped quite a bit - the front wheels stay planted, so the power delivery is easier.
Wiht the H&Rs, this set-up is really pretty efficient. Transitional roll is very reduced, and brake dive is dramatically different on a car with vs. without the springs.
I think you'll be very happy with the bar and springs.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Randy
>>
>>Graham Chandler
I have done testing with both settings.
The rear (less stiff) setting is a very nice upgrade from stock. The understeer is just about gone - the car is very neutral. You can't induce oversteer quite as easily as in the stiffer setting, but it's a "safer" setting.
The forward (stiffer) setting is where I prefer it. The car is easily driven with the throttle, the car "turns form the center", and snap-throttle oversteer isn't at a dangerous level - but it can be done. Four wheel drifts are nice too.
The traction is helped quite a bit - the front wheels stay planted, so the power delivery is easier.
Wiht the H&Rs, this set-up is really pretty efficient. Transitional roll is very reduced, and brake dive is dramatically different on a car with vs. without the springs.
I think you'll be very happy with the bar and springs.
Let me know if you have any other questions.
Randy
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 241
Likes: 1
From: San Diego, CA
>>What's this for? Where does it go? And forget autoX - why would an enthusiastic MINI Motorer want this? What benefits would there be for "normal" driving. I noticed this on Randy's site and have heard the talk but never really paid much attention.
>>
>>Thanks.
The simple (non-racer head) answer:
First, definitions - When a vehicle in a turn, a corner, is pushed past the LIMIT of it's tires adhesion with the road, it will lose traction and change it's path through the corner. UNDERSTEER is the condition where upon exceeding the limit noted above, the front wheels lose traction before the rear wheels and the vehicle tends to go straight instead of turning. If too far past the limit, the vehicle will go straight off the road, nose first. OVERSTEER is the condition where upon exceeding the limit, the rear wheels lose traction before the front wheels and the vehicle tends to spin around. If too far past the limit, the rear end will come around and the vehicle will exit the road either tail first or spinning uncontrollably. Whether a car understeers or oversteers depends on the design and setup of the suspension system.
Manufacturers design cars to understeer because it is perceived as safer (hence lower liability) for the typical driver, since the driver is looking in the direction of travel of an out of control, understeering car. An out of control, oversteering car is spinning and perceived as more difficult to regain control of. Racers want a car which is perfectly balanced between understeer and oversteer. If perfectly balanced, a car will lose traction at all four wheels at the same time when the limit of traction is exceeded, but by maximizing traction at all four wheels that limit will be higher than that of an unbalanced car. A perfectly balanced car can be cornered right at the limit and understeer or oversteer can be induced with subtle application or removal of throttle and/or brakes. This technique requires a great deal of practice, but when executed well in a well setup car, the result is amazing cornering speeds and capability.
What a sway bar does - A sway bar is literally a metal bar that connects the left suspension to the right suspension at either the front or rear of the car. (For visual clarity, see the pictures in Randy's excellent sway bar install guide.) When suspension is compressed on one side only (like in cornering) the bar twists and resists that suspension compression. When both left and right suspensions are compressed (like going over a speed bump) the bar moves freely without twist and has no effect. The bar decreases the tendency of the car to tip side to side (increasing ROLL-STIFFNESS) making it corner more flattly, again maximizing traction at all four wheels. The addition/modification of sway bars at one end of the car or the other is one of the ways the balance between understeer and oversteer can be affected. More front bar = more understeer. More rear bar = more oversteer. Adjustable sway bars, as those discussed here, provide more fine tuning capability of the understeer/oversteer balance. A MINI Cooper comes with front and rear sway bars, but BMW has sized them for moderate understeer; again the safety/liability issue. The aftermarket rear bar will bring the car more into balance.
Do you want one? - That is a complex question with many subquestions. For example, do you intend to drive your MINI at the limit where you can benefit from the change in balance? Do you have the driving skills to make use of the balance change? How do you want your MINI to handle in winter driving (keeping in mind the change in balance affects driving in low grip conditions as well as dry conditions)? Who else will be driving your MINI and do they have the driving skills; for example your wife in winter driving conditions (not being sexist here - just fueling thought)?
My $0.02 - The single best improvement you can make to the performance of your MINI is to upgrade the driver. If you don't have extensive high-performance driving experience, sign up with one of the many excellent regional high performance driving schools. With that under your belt, you would probably dust 90% of the modified MINIs out there with your stock MINI on a twisty road. Really! There are far more people out there with money to spend on stuff than real driving skills. I believe this kind of driving school should be required for a license, but nobody is electing me to office anytime soon.
Given the driving skills and that you want the improved cornering performance over novice driver safety, the second best improvement you can make is likely the rear sway bar. From what I've read on this website, the bar brings the MINI to near perfect balance. Plus the cost is very low compared to other upgrades and if you can change a tire. you can probably handle the install of the bar.
Hope this helps you and others.
James
>>
>>Thanks.
The simple (non-racer head) answer:
First, definitions - When a vehicle in a turn, a corner, is pushed past the LIMIT of it's tires adhesion with the road, it will lose traction and change it's path through the corner. UNDERSTEER is the condition where upon exceeding the limit noted above, the front wheels lose traction before the rear wheels and the vehicle tends to go straight instead of turning. If too far past the limit, the vehicle will go straight off the road, nose first. OVERSTEER is the condition where upon exceeding the limit, the rear wheels lose traction before the front wheels and the vehicle tends to spin around. If too far past the limit, the rear end will come around and the vehicle will exit the road either tail first or spinning uncontrollably. Whether a car understeers or oversteers depends on the design and setup of the suspension system.
Manufacturers design cars to understeer because it is perceived as safer (hence lower liability) for the typical driver, since the driver is looking in the direction of travel of an out of control, understeering car. An out of control, oversteering car is spinning and perceived as more difficult to regain control of. Racers want a car which is perfectly balanced between understeer and oversteer. If perfectly balanced, a car will lose traction at all four wheels at the same time when the limit of traction is exceeded, but by maximizing traction at all four wheels that limit will be higher than that of an unbalanced car. A perfectly balanced car can be cornered right at the limit and understeer or oversteer can be induced with subtle application or removal of throttle and/or brakes. This technique requires a great deal of practice, but when executed well in a well setup car, the result is amazing cornering speeds and capability.
What a sway bar does - A sway bar is literally a metal bar that connects the left suspension to the right suspension at either the front or rear of the car. (For visual clarity, see the pictures in Randy's excellent sway bar install guide.) When suspension is compressed on one side only (like in cornering) the bar twists and resists that suspension compression. When both left and right suspensions are compressed (like going over a speed bump) the bar moves freely without twist and has no effect. The bar decreases the tendency of the car to tip side to side (increasing ROLL-STIFFNESS) making it corner more flattly, again maximizing traction at all four wheels. The addition/modification of sway bars at one end of the car or the other is one of the ways the balance between understeer and oversteer can be affected. More front bar = more understeer. More rear bar = more oversteer. Adjustable sway bars, as those discussed here, provide more fine tuning capability of the understeer/oversteer balance. A MINI Cooper comes with front and rear sway bars, but BMW has sized them for moderate understeer; again the safety/liability issue. The aftermarket rear bar will bring the car more into balance.
Do you want one? - That is a complex question with many subquestions. For example, do you intend to drive your MINI at the limit where you can benefit from the change in balance? Do you have the driving skills to make use of the balance change? How do you want your MINI to handle in winter driving (keeping in mind the change in balance affects driving in low grip conditions as well as dry conditions)? Who else will be driving your MINI and do they have the driving skills; for example your wife in winter driving conditions (not being sexist here - just fueling thought)?
My $0.02 - The single best improvement you can make to the performance of your MINI is to upgrade the driver. If you don't have extensive high-performance driving experience, sign up with one of the many excellent regional high performance driving schools. With that under your belt, you would probably dust 90% of the modified MINIs out there with your stock MINI on a twisty road. Really! There are far more people out there with money to spend on stuff than real driving skills. I believe this kind of driving school should be required for a license, but nobody is electing me to office anytime soon.
Given the driving skills and that you want the improved cornering performance over novice driver safety, the second best improvement you can make is likely the rear sway bar. From what I've read on this website, the bar brings the MINI to near perfect balance. Plus the cost is very low compared to other upgrades and if you can change a tire. you can probably handle the install of the bar.
Hope this helps you and others.
James
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,241
Likes: 0
From: USA
mister_s
Great post....welcome.
I know several road racing schools and
have been through a few. If I had the chance to go back and
do it again I would look for an autocross school. I never went
to one and don't know any but for road racing,anybody can do it.
For autocross....you REALLY have to know how to drive and I
think that is a more natural progression to autox first then road
race. I suck at autocross but I can get around a road course OK.
Great post....welcome.
I know several road racing schools and
have been through a few. If I had the chance to go back and
do it again I would look for an autocross school. I never went
to one and don't know any but for road racing,anybody can do it.
For autocross....you REALLY have to know how to drive and I
think that is a more natural progression to autox first then road
race. I suck at autocross but I can get around a road course OK.
3rd Gear
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 241
Likes: 1
From: San Diego, CA
>>AMEN, brother, what drivng schools would Mister S personally recommend?
>>Welcome!!!
My personal experience was at the Jim Russell school at Sears Point Raceway in Northern CA, but it was years ago. The biggest name in the business is probably Bob Bondurant in Pheonix AZ. But what school is not that important; just do your homework and find one with a comprehensive program and a good reputation. Finding something local to you will save a lot of travel/lodging expenses (a good class should be multi-day). Most any race track will have a school or two associated with it since it's the best place to do it in a safe, legal manner.
Another great source is your local chapter of the BMWCCA. Most local chapters hold driving schools and track days, have members with tons of performance driving experience to learn from, and to the best of my knowledge have been quite welcoming to MINI drivers, even though they still argue over whether a MINI is a BMW or not.
Thanks to all for the warm welcomes!
James
>>Welcome!!!
My personal experience was at the Jim Russell school at Sears Point Raceway in Northern CA, but it was years ago. The biggest name in the business is probably Bob Bondurant in Pheonix AZ. But what school is not that important; just do your homework and find one with a comprehensive program and a good reputation. Finding something local to you will save a lot of travel/lodging expenses (a good class should be multi-day). Most any race track will have a school or two associated with it since it's the best place to do it in a safe, legal manner.
Another great source is your local chapter of the BMWCCA. Most local chapters hold driving schools and track days, have members with tons of performance driving experience to learn from, and to the best of my knowledge have been quite welcoming to MINI drivers, even though they still argue over whether a MINI is a BMW or not.
Thanks to all for the warm welcomes!
James
Temporarily Banned
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,382
Likes: 2
From: Denver
I would highly recommend Skip Barber as well. They have courses at several tracks around the country.
Also, check out the local BMWCCA or Porsche Club of America chapters. They have several events a year at local tracks. They are Drive Eds, where you get to use your own car and take it around the track with an experienced driver amongst other cars of your same skill level.
Here are the links:
Skip Barber
PCA
BMWCCA
Bondurant
Good luck!!
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
Also, check out the local BMWCCA or Porsche Club of America chapters. They have several events a year at local tracks. They are Drive Eds, where you get to use your own car and take it around the track with an experienced driver amongst other cars of your same skill level.
Here are the links:
Skip Barber
PCA
BMWCCA
Bondurant
Good luck!!
Randy
randy@mini-motorsport.com
pug poo picker-upper
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,803
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From: California
On car adjustment usually requires you to jack up the rear, remove both wheels. undo the drop links on both sides. reposition the bar, tightend the drop links in the new position, and then reinstall the wheels and lower the car off the jacks.
pug poo picker-upper
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,803
Likes: 30
From: California
it's really hard to beat the performance and cost of the MINI Madness bar.
see it on the MINI Motorsport site here
see it on the MINI Motorsport site here
pug poo picker-upper
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 9,803
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From: California
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 20
Likes: 0
From: Los Altos
This is a great thread for a performance driving "novice" like me.
I have a further question about understeer, oversteer, and the MCS's behavior at the cornering limit. What is the effect of DSC? On a normal "understeer" MCS? On a "neutral" MCS with swaybar?
Thanks,
I have a further question about understeer, oversteer, and the MCS's behavior at the cornering limit. What is the effect of DSC? On a normal "understeer" MCS? On a "neutral" MCS with swaybar?
Thanks,