Hi all, I'm new here.

I've had my 2012 Mini Cooper hardtop for 30 months / 40,000 miles, and I just replaced the OEM 175/65/15 ContiPremiumContact tires with a set of 195/60/15 General Altimax RT43. The OEMs were down to nothing, probably 3 months overdue for replacement. (I guess 40,000 miles is pretty good for the Contis.)

Now, the responsive Mini steering is gone, and I'm sad. I've been googling and reading, and I've found some possible explanations:

1. Need 500 miles to break them in (only gone ~50 since they were installed yesterday)
2. Slick coating leftover from mfg process will wear off
3. Went from 0 tread on sport tires to nearly a 1/4 inch of tread on all-season touring tires
4. Very slightly taller (0.2") tires have less stiffness in the sidewall

If these are the reasons, then I guess I'll have to accept it and hope that it improves over time. I wanted the wider all-season touring tires for a better ride and longer tread-life, and I'm aware it's a trade-off. The ride is smoother, but I didn't expect the steering to deteriorate this much. I've already lost confidence in my ability to take a sharp turn at speed or make an evasive maneuver (such as avoiding turtles ). I'm not sure how to describe it other than to say it feels like driving a boat instead of a go-kart.

There is one factor I'm concerned about, and it's the reason I'm writing here. I had the job done at the local CarQuest, and I specified the size, brand and model of the tires I wanted, but I failed to specify the load/speed rating (I just didn't think of it). So, instead of the 88H they gave my 88T. I'm not really a car guy, so I don't know if this could make a difference in the steering.

From TireRack.com, I know that T vs H = 118mph vs 130mph. I'm not too concerned about that since I don't think I've ever had it up over 85mph, nor do I plan to.

Can the 88Ts be contributing to the lousy steering? Are there any other problems I should be concerned with having T instead of H?

I haven't talked to the shop yet because I wanted to gather more info first.

Thanks.

 

Tire rack describes these tires as

Passenger/Standard Touring All-Season: Good, Basic, Reliable Tires

the Conti as: designed to blend good looks and handling

and you are comparing a $60 tire to a $95 tire (a good part of the price difference is the sidewall strength maybe ?????)

IMO tires are one of those things that you tend to get what you pay for ..... you put a minimum cost "everyday" tire on and are feeling the difference I'm afraid. You just can not expect to get great performance from a "soccer mom" tire

It IS true that a brand new tire can feel pretty squirrelly for a hundred miles or so until they 'scuff up' or break in. When I put new fronts on my 79 I was all over the road for at least a hundred miles and wondered what the shop did wrong .... but after 200 all was well. {I drove over 100 to get them mounted .... most shops have problems balancing 10" diameter rims today!}

But given that you bought a low cost tire intended for "average" use, I'd not expect things to get much better.

(curious that on Tire Rack anyway the T is more expensive than the H/V)

*******************
btw ... been there and done that

When I needed to replace the tires on my 7S we were in the middle of a child's wedding so spending big bucks on great tires was not the best plan. So I put on a low cost tire. Was there a big difference? YOU BET THERE WAS! On the other hand I AM still married, and still have my '79 toy . . . and run on EAGLES for my current ride .... wife still has crap NEXANs but some payback IS appropriate is it not?

 

The ContiPemiumContact 2 is a summer tire. I had them on my base 2010 Cooper and they worked very well indeed. They are currently priced at $290 for 4 after rebate at TireRack.com.

The General Altimax RT43 is a 75,000 mile all-season. Steering response is not on its list of design objectives.

As for the T speed rating, will anyone else ever drive your car? Will you take the tires off if you sell it? It affects more than the ability to maintain structural integrity above 118mph. An H rated tire provides more margin to prevent overheating under all conditions.

These are the only types of 15" tires listed in your manual:
175/65 R 15 84 T M+S Std
175/65 R 15 84 H M+S A/S Std
175/65 R 15 84 H Std
175/60 R 16 82 H M+S RSC
(RSC = runflat, Std = not)

I read that to mean they approve T rated tires for winter driving only. This is a liability issue for you and the seller of the tire. Especially since, as BJ noted, the tire comes in an H rated version in both 175/65-15 and 195/60-15 sizes.

If you want to go with all-seasons I would expect the best steering response from the 195/60-15 Yokohama Avid Envigor or the BFGoodrich Super Sport A/S. I have not personally driven either. You can read specifications, tire tests, and consumer reviews/surveys at TireRack.com.

And last, if you haven't checked your tire pressures, do so. Low pressures can make tires soft and sloppy.

 

I would say if you are not happy with the tires, switch them now. Most have a satisfaction guarantee clause in the first 30 days. I have learned the hard way to not skimp on tires. I put 205/45 17V michelin premier non- runflats on my 2013 clubman s at 40000 miles. They were the same size tires already on it.
I've been happy with them. They are an all-season, not a summer tire. Very good in rain. I have dedicated snow tires- so I can't comment on them in winter driving.

 

You went from a performance tire of all season touring....kinda says it all...
Staying within the same class/category of tire STILL gets you a change in feel...going from a min legal tread depth to a thicker rubber new tire ...but going to a more "relaxed" makes it an order of magnitude more noticeable...
Swap out the tires....or lice and the it...

 

Thanks for the responses everybody.

I did check the tire pressure. They came back from the shop with a variety of pressures: the fronts were both at 35 and the rears were at 32 and 38. I inflated them all to 40 and it didn't seem to make much difference. The 88Ts have max inflation of 44.

As I said, I was prepared for a trade-off, but the change is more dramatic than I expected. This is my first "sports" car, and I never really worried too much about tires in the past, so perhaps my expectations were unrealistic.

I will, however, talk to the shop about the liability issues with the T vs. H tires. Thanks for that point of view, hsautocrosser.

Looking on the bright side, when I wear out these tires and replace them with better performers, I'll get to fall in love with my (by then) 6 or 7 year old car all over again.

 

I have found that every time I have replaced a stock tire size with a wider tire, handling suffers. The stock tire was a summer tire with a width that placed the sidewall directly vertical with the edge of the rim. I suspect that the sidewall on the new tires is much softer and bulges out from the edge of the rim.

 

The 88Ts have max inflation of 44.

remember, that is the MAXIMUM pressure for the tire and not the pressure you should run at. MOST tires will run around 30 - 35 for a car ..... this assumes the size is one the manufacturer recommends.

https://www.kaltire.com/the-right-ti...isnt-the-best/

This is my first "sports" car, and I never really worried too much about tires in the past,

sportier the car, the more the tires will impact things . . .

just replacing old tires with new of same make/model/size makes a HUGE difference on my 79 ... and I never let 'em get 'low' on tread

 

I believe in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I'm happy with the handling of my Mini and when the tires get replaced I'll replace them with what's on the car now.

 

an absolutely sound approach 'cept one thing ....

SOMETIMES what was the OE tire is discontinued ..... so don't be TOO locked into "same tire"

I HAVE seen a tire shop that was HAPPY to get rid of a tire that had been discontinued several years ago and they could not sell until someone INSISTED that was the tire they wanted ...... warnings of tire life being 5 years from date of manufacture not withstanding.

So you might want to approach as "equivalent"

++++++++++++++++

a MINI next to a Mini ..... they are DIFFERENT



as a biMinual it matters to me . . .

 

What a great picture.

 

cute butts too

 

Sorry to hear about your problem.

Everything you mention could have been predicted. That's why it is important for you to be clear on what are your own priorities before making a tire purchase (ride comfort and smoothness vs responsive handling vs All season use vs long treadlife, etc).

Buying tires does not have to be complicated and you should go back to the shop that you used and tell them you are not happy with the tires they installed and further, your Cooper has a minimum speed rating of H not T.

In another thread in the tire forum, Alex@tirerack.com has mentioned that speed ratings that are lower than what is OEM for your model MINI can give lesser handling and performance.
see post #22
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...l-weather.html

T speed rated cars are generally very basic, low budget, tires for basic family transportation.

Your MINI has excellent handling capabilities but that can be muted when choosing tires that are more geared for ride comfort than for performance.

When shopping you can look at Grand Touring All Season tires if your priorities are toward, ride comfort, lower noise, longer treadlife, smooth ride.

If handling and performance are important but you still want some ride smoothness and a little more treadlife then Ultra High Performance All Season tires are worth a look. However your tire sizes may not be available as in this case.

High Performance All Season tires are about as basic a class if you want budget tires but there are many decent budget tires in the previously mentioned classes.

Don't expect much from knock off, copy cat generic brand tires.

As for your questions:
1. Yes break in is 500 miles. Don't expect that much change in handling, only a little.
2. Yes, the anti mold coat will wear off
3. Going from bald tires to full tread tires does give a little squirm but it's more likely the whole tire (new tire) is not built for good handling.
4. Taller sidewall does contribute to handling but so does the sidewall construction (materials used and manufacturing process).

General Altimax RT43 is a Standard Touring All Season tire. 600 treadwear, $68.92 at tirerack.

For your MINI you can choose any of these tire sizes:
175/65-15
185/60-15
185/65-15
190/60-15

If you have cold weather down to under 40 degrees and need to drive then All Season tires are indicated. If you want the longest wearing treadlife then All Season tires are better.

If you want a good blend of handling and ride quality then High Perf All Season tires are fine.
examples for 195/60-15:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...earDiameter=17

see the tirerack test result for Goodyear Eagle Sport All Season:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=179

 

Thanks again for the thoughtful responses. I'm starting to think the H-rated tire, while not high-performance, would not have been as disappointing as the T-rated tire. The General I selected is in the Grand Touring category, whereas the General they installed is in the Standard Touring category.

That said, I stopped by the shop this morning, and tomorrow afternoon we're going to swap them out for the Yokohama Avid Envigor 195/60/15 - 88H-rated.

P.S. Love the orange Mini, Capt_bj. Not sure I'd be here today (asking questions about MINI tires) if not for Mr. Bean.

 

Let us know how the Envigors feel to you.

 

I just had a chance to take the Envigors for a test drive. This time they came out of the shop with all four inflated to 40psi (max 51).

On the plus said, I'd say steering response is at least 90-95% of what it was on the worn-out tires - and that's without making any of the allowances listed above for "new tires". I'm very well pleased.

On the minus side, we're back to feeling every nuance (i.e. imperfection) of the road. This will disappoint my wife, as she rather enjoyed the ride on the Generals ("it feels less like a toy car").

Also on the minus side, the shop made me pay for a second installation, insisting it was my fault for not specifying the speed-rating the first time - and also insisting that there is no difference between the T and H tires if I'm not driving at those speeds. I'm still fuming over that. Live and learn, and find a different shop for future work.*#

At least she's fun to drive again...


---
RANTING FOLLOWS

* I didn't even know there was a T-rated version of that tire because I wasn't shopping in that category. At the very least, if there were two options, you'd think they'd have asked me first.

# And, I didn't even ask to switch tires. I asked them to swap for the H-rated Generals I had originally ordered (or so I thought). It was only after they said they were unable to get the Generals from their supplier that I suggested switching to the Yokohamas (and that based on little more than hsautocrosser's suggestion above).

 

40psi is way too high and will produce a harsh ride. Your manual recommends 33 below 100 mph and 38 over. Just a few pounds of difference will affect ride and do so more than steering response. Drop two pounds at a time and test. When I mentioned low psi making a tire soft I was thinking along the lines of less than 30 which more than one tire changer has done to me.

Had you mentioned your wife's preferences we could have suggested the Kumho Ecsta PA31 or Michelin Premier AS. It's all about compromise in tires.

"toy" car: pfffft. It's a fun driver's car. Ok, clown car, girly car, hairdresser's car; it all depends on who's talking. MINI marketing: quirky car with gokart handling.

 

You new tire choice is much better.

Do not use this tire shop again and put a negative review on Yelp for them.

It is the shop's responsibility to check the old tires for the load rating or look it up and use tires of at least the same speed rating, they can be held responsible for using non OEM rated tires. Yes, you can check the speed and load ratings but they are the professional tire shop.

You can go to the Better Business Bureau and issue a complaint that you should not have to pay for the replacement installation. If they care about their BBB ratings then they will resolve the problem or compromise.

As for tire pressure, how did you arrive at 40 psi? Most of us will use about 33-36 psi for street use. The higher tire pressures are better for hypermiling but will give a harsher ride.

As you have indicated, responsive handling and quiet smooth ride quality tend to be at opposite ends for some tires. There are exceptions but you may have to pay more. A great tire that does more things better is the Michelin Pilot Super Sport (Max Summer tire). In All Season tires it's going to be more of a compromise since longer treadlife is added to the equation.

I would not use tire pressures less than 32 psi just to soften the ride.

Thanks for letting us know what you did and your experiences.

 

It came out of the shop at 40. I kept the OEM Contis at 35 and will probably do the same with these.