Hi all,

I have an 05 MCS on order, as you can see from my sig. However I've recently started taking a closer look at the VW GTI R32 and I'm beginning to wonder if I made the right choice. My previous car was a fairly heavily modified 2000 A4, so I know the joys of tuning a VW engine and the joys of all wheel drive. The 240hp engine in the R32 can, after $4500 for a supercharger kit sold by very reputable companies, be brought to 320hp. For another $1500, that can be brought to 350hp. That's some serious haul-*** power. I'm sure it's a blast to drive, and I'm going to try to get a test drive tomorrow at my local dealer.

But it has some downsides. The 3.2L engine and AWD come at a hefty cost, weight-wise. The car weighs 3400lbs - more even than my old A4! So it's not going to handle as well as the MINI (honestly, is there much that does? ), although I do have confidence in the abilities of a GTI highly modified for handling. Also, the car doesn't have nearly the number of cool gadgets as the MINI. As much as I'm into performance driving, I'm also really into gadgets in a car, and the MINI satisfies that beast in me for certain. The MINI I ordered has pretty much every option you can get, and it still costs less than the base R32, which has only one option - leather interior. Sure, I could do a lot of fun aftermarket gadget stuff, but the coolest gadgets are always OEM, IMO.

I figure I'll get a LOT of support for the MINI here, but I'd be interested to hear everyone's thoughts on my decision. I'm pretty serious about the MINI, but of course don't want to make any decision I'll look back on and regret, so just covering all my bases. Especially if anyone has some experience with the R32 and can honestly compare it to the MCS, I'd be greatly appreciative to hear it.

Thanks!

-mike

 

mlebeau,

Lets do some math.
R32 240 HP 3400 pounds = 14.16 pounds per HP
MCS 170 HP 2650 pounds = 15.59 pounds per HP

In stock form due to the weight difference the MCS isn't bad at all.
Add the optional Limited slip differential and some lightrims and sticky tires and you have quite a strong great handling sports car for cheap.

Adding gobs more power to the R32 will help in straightline speed but not in handling plus with all that weight it isn't going to handle very nimbly.

What you want is a high horsepower/torque engine in a very light chassis.
You'd have trouble balancing that excessive power with that excessive weight.

A few minor relatively cheap mods will help without breaking the bank-
22mm Rear sway bar- 3 hole adjustable - reduces understeer- $230
19% reduction pulley for Supercharger and smaller belt- $450 installed
RDR/Alta with hose/K&N Hot air intake for about $200
Now you're getting close to 200 HP and about 13-13.50 pounds/HP.

 

I'd agree with minihune. I've been a big fan of the souped up Golf's for years (my friend's got an older model VR6) and was very interested in news of the R32. Although I haven't test driven one, I read a couple of reviews on it in some of our Aussie car mags which said that the V6 sounds brilliant and straight line speed is wicked but the handling is a bit dissapointing compared to the rest of the package, quote, "The Golf, like the game, is best played in a straight line, where it's performance is as impressive as the Tiger Woods of old. Faced with dog-legs, or other bends, the R32 is like today's Tiger, Still very good, but not quite right." Probably because of the weight.

Plus the MINI looks so much better (inside and out) compared to the ageing Golf, IMO.

 

I agree with Minhune as well. I seriously looked at the R32 as well. I like the agressive looks, the seats felt great, it had a nice engine, and the AWD was a cool feature. The aspect that bothered me, was that the steering did not feel razor sharp as it is in the Mini. You could feel the extra weight when cornering, which at any cost will become difficult to correct to the Mini's feel. The hp figure seems nice at 240hp, but in reality at 240hp is not any faster than a Mini. The extra weight and extra power loss due to the AWD driveline really bring down the numbers. Sure you can throw on some extra power, but again at a price. A fully equipeed Mini is still roughly $4,000-$5,000 cheaper than the R32. By the time you put a supercharger on the R32, you are an additional $10,000 or more behind. This starts bringing it outside of the league of the Mini.


As a second point, the Mini, regardless of the small problems you may have heard about on the earlier models, is really a small BMW. The options list is great for anything in this class and the quality in my opinion for a $20,000 compact is great. Unfortunately I think a lot of American car magazines do not review the Mini very well over here. They are usually put in with a lot other retro compacts, and most of the praise is in the "cute looks" department. Whereas in Europe the Mini is regarded as a much more of a driver's performance car. It is regularly pitted against other performance cars, I have even seen it pitted against an M3, with very positive marks.

I can definitley see your interest in the R32, as mine was there as well, but I think in the long run you will like the features, handling, and driveability of the Mini much more than the R32.

 

mlebeau. I have the MCS/JCW package and I also have taken a hard look at the R32 I have ridden in one on the autocross course and can fully attest to the fact that while it sounds great, the tourque is awsome, it feels washed out in the twisties, the body roll felt worse in the car than it looked from the sideline. Left foot brakeing is a no no, touch the brake while in the throttle and after a short timeout the throttle cuts off! I will continue to watch this car and see how VW evolves it because even though SCCA doesnt think so (.795 pax R32/.848 JCW cooper S) I think this is the closest car to the Works MINI out there. I have beaten the R32 so far this year even tho the driver is more experienced than I am by more than a year. I ran my first autocross in february and can say that the MINI was made for this!

 

When we bought our 2001 Passat with V6 and 4Motion system, we knew we had made the correct choice - it is a great drive train! But it is also a very complicated one, with an entire computer in the trunk constantly monitoring each wheel and a bunch of parameters like steering position acceleration, etc.

One of the reasons we purchased the car was that at the time, it came with a 10 year 100,00 mile drive train warranty, which I believe they no longer give you.

Anyway, the potential for very expensive problems exists with a 4Motion, and quite frankly, the notion of buying a new one and then going out and voiding the drive train warranty in order to get to the level of performance that a JCW would give you WITH a warranty means you must have TONS of disposable income. If you are really that rich, I would go GT-40, Lotus Elise or some other exotic, because with the financial risk you are contemplating, you must have already met all your other needs like housing, college funds, children, retirement, etc.

Besides, when you pull up in that R32, they will ooh and ahhh and say "Hey, thats one of them Volkswagons isn't it?"

 

Thanks for the info folks. There's no denying that the R32 is a faster car than the MCS in a straight line... I'm willing to bet faster than the JCW, even stock, even though it's quite heavy. The supercharger is not such a huge concern IMO. I had a quattro car and was never too worried about the mods; the aftermarket parts were made so well and hardly anyone had problems, and this was with an even riskier platform, the 1.8t. The supercharger kit I'm looking at is $4500, with $1000-2000 in labor after that probably. I do have that kind of money to spend aftermarket, and I'm planning on spending a lot aftermarket on either car. Living for 4 years with Audiworld.com makes you a bit of a mod nut. I don't feel there's huge financial risk in adding the supercharger to the R32, nor would many at Audiworld, although I've noticed the MINI folks often tend to have a different outlook on this sort of thing. Also, some numbers to consider money-wise might show that it's not so much more expensive for the Golf.


My MINI order: $27699 + $1100 for shipping: $28799
GTI R32 MSRP: $29100 + $0 for shipping since it's right here.
Add leather and that's up to something like $30000.
Also, one of my best friends' families is very close with the VW dealer around here and on any normal car they can get a very significant deal; I'm hoping it's the same for the R32, although the dealership may be less willing to budge on a specialty car like that. Worst case, I can always go to the owner's house - his son is a friend of mine and an even better friend of many of my friends... So I may be looking at spending no more for the Golf than I would the MINI. That's one reason the decision becomes difficult. Gotta remember though that my MINI has every option known to man, and the R32, while nice and luxurious, is relatively gadget-less. So that's a big factor. I don't know yet, today I'll test drive and try to start making a decision, but I thought I would put out the numbers I'm looking at to see if that changes anyone's feelings about my situation.

Thanks again for the responses.

-mike

 

By the way minihune you forgot one vital piece of math: Supercharged GTI: 350hp/3400lbs: 10.29 pound per hp. Now that's power. Don't get me wrong I love the MINI and I'm seriously considering it, but let's not pretend it's some sort of straight-line speed demon.

-mike

 

First, if you're going to spend $29k on a Mini before any mods, then... well... I can understand why you'd be second-guessing your decision. Don't know if you checked it out, but the base S in $20k. It's actually a pretty good deal and a great car.

If you're looking for a heavy car with mediocre handling and excessive horsepower (and who isn't? )... the R32 is a good choice, but you should consider the Pontiac GTO. $32k, 3725lbs, 350hp. I think it's for you. Leave the limited Mini supply to those who understand.

 

Someone's a little defensive about his car of choice. I'm not going to dignify your attitude with a response to this... heh.

-mike

 

Cliff notes for Minihune:

R32 - sport-touring luxo-barge
MCS - art deco go-kart

Whichever your motoring requirements are, both will please in their own way.

 

Haha, Ryephile, that's a good way of looking at it. I'm pretty sure at this point I'll end up sticking with the MINI. My main concern is looking back a year or two from now wishing I had done something different... but with the smiles per mile of the MINI I don't think I'm going to be doing that.

-mike

 

Mike,


The R32 according to VW does 0-60 in 6.4 seconds. The MCS according to Mini does it in 6.9 seconds, without the JCW kit. So not a lot of difference. You also have to remember that 0-60 on AWD cars are a little inflated. Sure it does make those numbers, but most of it has to do with the fact that you can rev them to 5,000 rpm and then just dump the clutch with no wheelspin. In real world 20-40mph and the such the advantage is a lot less. Also as a side note, it appears that the '05 MCS will be in the 6.6-6.7 second range for 0-60, due to the extra hp and revised gearing. Add in the LSD option and you will probably lower it some further because of the elimination of some of the wheelspin off the line. I really think they are very close in 0-60 times. I was running alongside a R32 on the highway and I was a bit quicker. He was stock, and I had a 15% pulley. I would recommend test driving the Mini and taking it on one of your favorite curved roads and really let it go. I think you will see it handles quite a bit better than the R32.

Also as a side note, there are a few companies coming out with an upgraded supercharger to boost the MCS to 300hp easily. Add that to the lower weight and you have a car that screams.

 

dgszweda1, points well taken however some of the information is not quite correct. You're right that the R32 does 6.4 and that the number is inflated. I read that without clutch abuse, you're looking at about 7 flat. However you also have to take into account something you probably didn't know: VW was not at all concerned with the 0-60 on this car, because they set the 2nd gear to top out at a 0-60 killing 56mph. So the car is significantly faster than the 0-60 times let on. Just making note of that. But point well taken about the little race you had, it's good to hear a real-life comparison. And I totally agree that the MINI is a much better handler - I got to test drive a friend's JCW in the hills and it was really great... although it was weird coming from quattro to have to think about loss of traction.


I heard a little bit about these big SC kits... do you have any more information about the companies, planned release dates, etc? Thanks for your help!

-mike

 

Whatever. Didn't mean to be expressing a particular "attitude." I'm totally comfortable with my (current) choice - you're the one who seems to be "waffling."

Just drive the cars. I haven't driven the R32 myself, but I did try a friend's S4 the other day, assuming I would be entering Nirvana. I found it wholly undewhelming. I'd actually say boring. I'm sure it's great at the limit on a track, but for real-world driving it was a complete snooze compared to the Mini. My friend, on the other hand, loves his S4 and thinks the Mini feels "cheap," "light" and "scary." "Light" and "scary" sounds good to me.

If you drive the R32, please report back. As you're coming from an A4, me thinks you'll find it feels quite familiar. And if that feels good to you, then you're done.

 

I sat in the R32 at a car show this spring and thought it was pretty nice, if extremely pricey. I was suprised when Top Gear TV, in the UK, tested the R32 on their track and it was one of the slowest 'sporty' cars they've done. Apparently it's way over weight and does a really poor job of putting those HP to the pavement.

I personally prefer great handling over a slightly faster time 0-60. If you want a new lead sled drag car just get that new GTO.

 

Hey XAlfa,

The "leave the MINIs for those who understand" comment has a bit of attitude, wouldn't you think? But it's cool if you didn't intend it. I agree about the S4. It's pretty underwhelming, just too damn heavy at like 3900 lbs. The A4 was a different story, at 3300 lbs it was still heavy but could be made into a pretty fun car with the right suspension mods, etc. Like I said I'm pretty sure about the MINI, in fact I'm debating whether I'm going to even bother driving the R32 today... Don't feel like putting up with all the dealer stuff. Anyway yeah, the A4 was significantly more tossable than the S4, and the MINI is significantly more tossable than the A4, and that's what I'm looking for. Sounds like the R32 will be no better than the A4 was, if not worse. Thanks for everyone's comments.

-mike

 

Dude, given all the people you've now dragged into your private indecision hell, I think you MUST drive the R32 and then report back.

 

if the R32 was a high boost 1.8T or even the new version that's supposed to be a 2.0T, i'd like it a lot more. the VR6 doesn't interest me at all. i like small potent motors, that's just me. the VW turbos are a lot more tuneable with some bolt-ons than the VR6 too-lot more cost effective IMO. to go and spend 5-6K for a supercharger may be fun but you'll just be risking serious long-term damage on a motor that was engineered to be NA. add on turbos and stuff like that are cool no doubt but that's a lot of money to spend on possible future headaches. fun, reliable horsepower can be had for very cheap on these little cars. i love the Golfs honestly but i'd be more apt to spend my money (lot less too) on a 1.8T and tune the crap out of it and put on the R32 bodykit. my .02:smile:

 

There is always the A3 Sportback coming in May 2005. :smile:

Available in 2.0T FWD / 2.0T Quattro and my favorite 3.2 DSG Quattro.




I'd mention the 1-series, but BMW doesn't plan to bring it to the U.S.

At this point, I see a lot of positives to the R32, but since the Golf IV is about ready to say goodnight, I'd rather hold out for the mk5 equivalent - the A3.

Dave

 

Agreed, I wish the timing were a little different; I've ALWAYS wanted an A3... I like the Sportback but I'd prefer one of the two-door A3's.


-mike

 

Go with the R32 and look at HPA Motorsports for their turbo kit for it...

 

Sure thats the ticket all you need is the 32k for the upgrade!

 

Mike,

There are a couple of people producing or about to produce some high hp kits for the Mini. Here are a few (enjoy!):

• AmD has a 275hp kit which includes a new Rotrex supercharger. http://www.amdtechnikusa.com/minicoopers.asp
• BBR has a 275hp kit which does not include a new supercharger. It has been reviewed by Top Gear with impressive results. http://www.bbrgti.com/mini.php#Phase4. Video of the Top Gear review can be found at http://www.racingflix.com/getvideo.asp?v=586&p=6
• M7 Tuning will have a larger supercharger soon as well. Rumor has it that it will produce around 315hp. You can contact them for more information. http://www.m7tuning.com/
• SPI has a twincharged kit coming out soon. This kit includes a turbocharger along with the supercharger. They are putting about 250hp to the wheels. More info can be found in this post: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=21783
• Mini Mania has a Stage 3 kit with 245hp. http://new.minimania.com/
• Randy at Webbmotorsports can put together a pretty good setup that is better than the Stage 3 from Mini Mania at a better cost. http://www.webbmotorsports.com
• Mini Madness has a 265hp Stage 4 package as well. http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=182

These are all the packages that I am aware of right now.

 

Wait a minute, just read thread, the R32 is all wheel drive (I didn't know that), and you would be willing to add supercharger or turbo kit. Uh, go with the R32! Hey I love my mini, and the handling shines, but the R32 with more power added will be a hoot as well.

I also have a Stealth Twin Turbo with some work , and I'm always hearing about how heavy it is. But a powerful all wheel drive is a heck of a lot of fun. 300-350 hp in rather easy aftermarket add ons for the VW, and you won't be regretting your decision. Not bashing Mini, just love cars, and think you would enjoy final results with R32 since you like modding.