R50/53 supercharger rear gearbox oil port extension?
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supercharger rear gearbox oil port extension?
Hi all,
After reading an inordinate amount about the need to verify the oil level, the type and various other tidbits and details, coupled with the fact my MCS-C has 115k hard miles by the PO, i decided to dig in and check the oil level. Front gear box, piece of cake. Rear, not so much, unless I am doing something very wrong. I had to take everything off the front of the car and the top of the engine to finally remove the SC. What a pain in the tail!
Fortunately, there was a very small amount of oil in the rear box.
What I noticed was the threads for the gear box port were identical to a 1/4" Swagelok fitting I have. THe fitting screws in perfectly and accomodates an o-ring to boot!
So my thought is, why not run a 1/4" stainless tube up from the rear port to a small reservoir. One I can monitor and keep full of fluid. I am not a big fan of "sealed" systems and nto a big fan of completely disassembling the front of the car just to check a stupid little reservoir. However, as I understand from my readings, lack of oil is catastrophic failure. So, if I could plumb a little tube to a reservoir, it would insure there was sufficient oil in the gear box at all times, allow me to add very easilly, and check the level. It woudl also provide more volume and an escape path for any heat related expansion/pressure. Is this a viable idea or are there concerns? It seems very straight forward and I would love to eliminate the hassle with checking this tiny little reservoir. Thanks for the input.
Morphius
After reading an inordinate amount about the need to verify the oil level, the type and various other tidbits and details, coupled with the fact my MCS-C has 115k hard miles by the PO, i decided to dig in and check the oil level. Front gear box, piece of cake. Rear, not so much, unless I am doing something very wrong. I had to take everything off the front of the car and the top of the engine to finally remove the SC. What a pain in the tail!
Fortunately, there was a very small amount of oil in the rear box.
What I noticed was the threads for the gear box port were identical to a 1/4" Swagelok fitting I have. THe fitting screws in perfectly and accomodates an o-ring to boot!
So my thought is, why not run a 1/4" stainless tube up from the rear port to a small reservoir. One I can monitor and keep full of fluid. I am not a big fan of "sealed" systems and nto a big fan of completely disassembling the front of the car just to check a stupid little reservoir. However, as I understand from my readings, lack of oil is catastrophic failure. So, if I could plumb a little tube to a reservoir, it would insure there was sufficient oil in the gear box at all times, allow me to add very easilly, and check the level. It woudl also provide more volume and an escape path for any heat related expansion/pressure. Is this a viable idea or are there concerns? It seems very straight forward and I would love to eliminate the hassle with checking this tiny little reservoir. Thanks for the input.
Morphius
Someone has developed what you describe. I saw the vendor at the Dragon last year. When I think of his name I'll add to this post.
Edit: Here it is: www.imperialmini.com
Edit: Here it is: www.imperialmini.com
Last edited by JAB 67; Apr 9, 2013 at 07:29 PM. Reason: more info
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Thanks for the post. That is essentially what i am proposing. From a pressure stand-poont, unless i am missing something, and there is ample volume for thermal expansion by insuring there is air above the fluid, there should not be any undue pressure on the seals. As far as additional drag from shear due to more contact of fluid agaist gears, i cant see that as an issue. I like the idea of not having to disassemble the front end.
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From: Wisconsin
I'm planning on making something to this effect when I get arround to topping off the oil on mine. I was just going to make some kind of extension tube as a remote fill so the the correct oil level wouldn't change much, and then have some kind of dipstick for easy level checking.
So the oil plug is actually just 1/4" pipe thread? Do you have a part number for the fitting you mentioned that had an o-ring?
So the oil plug is actually just 1/4" pipe thread? Do you have a part number for the fitting you mentioned that had an o-ring?
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Unfortuantely it is not NPT. it is actually a reasonably fine straight thread, I can ID it later today in our companies machine shop. Last evening, i found it is the same exact thread as the Swagelok 1/4" tube fitting. It uses an oring to seal between the compressor and a machined face on the plug. Here is a link to the fitting:http://www.swagelok.com/search/find_...7-a5d3fd3672c3
I have a couple of these from old projects, we use this company for fittings here in the factory I work in, so I have accumulated a few here and there. Not certain how expensive cause I never have to actually pay for them.
I really plan on doing pretty much the same as you. i have a small stainless coolant overflow from another prject I am going to use as a reservoir. it has a hole on the side i'll use a sintered metal vent plug in, then just make certain it always has some fluid in it.
I just hate waiting for it (SC) to die almost as much as I hate tearing the engine apart to check that it is good. I'll take pics of mine as it comes together. It may have some industrial stuff since that is what I can get my hands on. Another good source is mcmaster carr. great site!
I have a couple of these from old projects, we use this company for fittings here in the factory I work in, so I have accumulated a few here and there. Not certain how expensive cause I never have to actually pay for them.
I really plan on doing pretty much the same as you. i have a small stainless coolant overflow from another prject I am going to use as a reservoir. it has a hole on the side i'll use a sintered metal vent plug in, then just make certain it always has some fluid in it.
I just hate waiting for it (SC) to die almost as much as I hate tearing the engine apart to check that it is good. I'll take pics of mine as it comes together. It may have some industrial stuff since that is what I can get my hands on. Another good source is mcmaster carr. great site!
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Joined: Oct 2012
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From: Wisconsin
Great info - thanks!
I was just going to drill and tap the factory plug for 1/8" NPT but more options are always good! The OEM plug from Eaton can be had rather cheep so I was going to order a spare and start work on it before tearing into the car. Hmm, I probaby already have std brass 1/4 tube / compression fittings laying arround the shop. I should check the compatibility of that thread on the easily to get to plug.
I was just going to drill and tap the factory plug for 1/8" NPT but more options are always good! The OEM plug from Eaton can be had rather cheep so I was going to order a spare and start work on it before tearing into the car. Hmm, I probaby already have std brass 1/4 tube / compression fittings laying arround the shop. I should check the compatibility of that thread on the easily to get to plug.
Just remember....
The SC is a WEAR item BEYOND the seals....
as the rotors wear, the PSI it makes drops....(and internally the bearings wear...)
So if you get 100,00-120,000 miles out if a SC (design life), then pay $500 (low end e-bay junk)-$900 (quality steigimer) for a rebuild, and get new improved seals, bearings, etc, you are good to go!! Simply keeping the oil filled with a failed seal can only do so much....and ONCE you modify the SC, you will need to pay an EXTRA $500 core charge on a rebuild....
Good luck, but the SC PTO gear issues seems to be related to a number of cars that had a specific issue..some failed very early..40,000-60,000 miles.....but it seems like most go much further..long enough that it is more of an old-age issue.
It is interesting hearing of the changes to try to make it work, have fun!!
The SC is a WEAR item BEYOND the seals....
as the rotors wear, the PSI it makes drops....(and internally the bearings wear...)
So if you get 100,00-120,000 miles out if a SC (design life), then pay $500 (low end e-bay junk)-$900 (quality steigimer) for a rebuild, and get new improved seals, bearings, etc, you are good to go!! Simply keeping the oil filled with a failed seal can only do so much....and ONCE you modify the SC, you will need to pay an EXTRA $500 core charge on a rebuild....
Good luck, but the SC PTO gear issues seems to be related to a number of cars that had a specific issue..some failed very early..40,000-60,000 miles.....but it seems like most go much further..long enough that it is more of an old-age issue.
It is interesting hearing of the changes to try to make it work, have fun!!
My recharger kit from Imperial is being delivered today actually.
I personally wouldn't try to rig up something without proper design as that could cause a lot of issues.
As zippy said, I would just get another SC and then proceed from there.
I personally wouldn't try to rig up something without proper design as that could cause a lot of issues.
As zippy said, I would just get another SC and then proceed from there.
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So I understand the concern about doing somehting "bad." I honestly don't think I am really risking anythign provided I design it with consideration for partial pressure and how that will change based on heat and what I need to do to not blow seals since fluid is theoretically incompressible. I think this is likely why there is a nice cusion of air on top of the fluid in the housing/case.
That said, this is really great dialoge and information. What my fundamental coincern is (not that compressor efficiency is not one) is that I don't overheat due to catastrophic failure in the PTO section of the SC. I see that as an achilies heel and would liek to protect against it. Yes, the SC will need to be replaced, but preferably only the SC and not the engine or head because the PTO failed.
Thanks again for all the folsk chiming in. Very good stuff. I will post pics of my current set-up when I am not at work!
That said, this is really great dialoge and information. What my fundamental coincern is (not that compressor efficiency is not one) is that I don't overheat due to catastrophic failure in the PTO section of the SC. I see that as an achilies heel and would liek to protect against it. Yes, the SC will need to be replaced, but preferably only the SC and not the engine or head because the PTO failed.
Thanks again for all the folsk chiming in. Very good stuff. I will post pics of my current set-up when I am not at work!
The sound The car makes CHANGES when SC goes low on oil.....for several hundred miles...
Car makes a bit of a clanggy sound...kinda like a chains dragging behind the car...so it can be caught before an overheat....and if one stops before the red-idiot light comes on, and the motor siezes.....
One tip....the stock temp guage on non-chrono cars is an idiot guage...for looks...it always stays in the middle(chrono pack cars do have working guages). Failure of the sc pto is not sudden...it can be heard.
If i was looking for prevention of sudden overheating, i would look into crank-damper failures. They CAN start to slip, then grab, making folks wonder why the car overheats, then is suddenly fine. Monitor it. I swapped my oem one for an ati superdamper at the first signs the rubber was getting fatigued on the oem one.....
Car makes a bit of a clanggy sound...kinda like a chains dragging behind the car...so it can be caught before an overheat....and if one stops before the red-idiot light comes on, and the motor siezes.....
One tip....the stock temp guage on non-chrono cars is an idiot guage...for looks...it always stays in the middle(chrono pack cars do have working guages). Failure of the sc pto is not sudden...it can be heard.
If i was looking for prevention of sudden overheating, i would look into crank-damper failures. They CAN start to slip, then grab, making folks wonder why the car overheats, then is suddenly fine. Monitor it. I swapped my oem one for an ati superdamper at the first signs the rubber was getting fatigued on the oem one.....
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From: Wisconsin
My 03 has 80k on it and runs silent and cool. I'm just a fan of preventitave maintenance. Checking the pto oil is overly time consuming so I'm going to make it easier to keep an eye on. The pre-made kit looks nice but I don't buy when I can easily make my own. Thanks to Morphius for the idea of an easier to scource fitting!
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I finally did it. I have been thinking about and planning this mod since 2006 when I got my MCS. I had always planned on pulling the SC at 100K and checking the PTO end oil and doing this mod. I was lucky, I should have checked it much earlier. Two weeks ago at about 100K I pulled the SC and found no oil at all in the PTO end. But the gears and needle bearing looked almost perfect, and no metal residue inside the housing. So I did the mod. I have tons of pics (unfortunately via phone camera and not super sharp). I am only posting a few basic pics so you can get the idea.
I drilled and tapped a 1/4 inch pipe hole in the side of the PTO housing at an angle. I inserted a Swagelok brand pipe/tube connector (1/4 tapered pipe x 3/8 inch tube) into the hole. I have recently pulled that connector and inserted a short 1/4 inch brass pipe into the hole and then put a tubing adapter on the end of the nipple. Works better. I positioned the hole as far to the rear of the housing as possible to avoid the large gear but not to cut into the thicker flange of the housing. I angled it so that a dipstick would go to the deepest far corner of the housing. I applied the proper anaerobic sealant and a new water pump and put it all back together.
Once the SC was back on the engine and the car sitting level, I added the specified 40cc of SC oil. After settling, I inserted a dipstick made of a piece of electrical wire w insulation. I knew that 10 1/2 inches was the appropriate distance to insert. I measured and recorded the oil level so that I now have a reference for the correct full amount of oil that should be in the housing. Now it is a quick matter of taking the cap of the dipstick tube and inserting a dipstick the exact distance, pulling it and observing the oil level. Additional oil can easily be added as required with a small funnel.
Now no more wondering if there is any oil in the housing. I can check it and know in about one minute. Hope this is interesting and helpful for anyone who has a need to pull their SC. Wish I had done this earlier.
Did new brushes in the alternator and O-ring for Crank sending unit, and belt and tensioner and idler pulley at the same time. Attached Thumbnails
I drilled and tapped a 1/4 inch pipe hole in the side of the PTO housing at an angle. I inserted a Swagelok brand pipe/tube connector (1/4 tapered pipe x 3/8 inch tube) into the hole. I have recently pulled that connector and inserted a short 1/4 inch brass pipe into the hole and then put a tubing adapter on the end of the nipple. Works better. I positioned the hole as far to the rear of the housing as possible to avoid the large gear but not to cut into the thicker flange of the housing. I angled it so that a dipstick would go to the deepest far corner of the housing. I applied the proper anaerobic sealant and a new water pump and put it all back together.
Once the SC was back on the engine and the car sitting level, I added the specified 40cc of SC oil. After settling, I inserted a dipstick made of a piece of electrical wire w insulation. I knew that 10 1/2 inches was the appropriate distance to insert. I measured and recorded the oil level so that I now have a reference for the correct full amount of oil that should be in the housing. Now it is a quick matter of taking the cap of the dipstick tube and inserting a dipstick the exact distance, pulling it and observing the oil level. Additional oil can easily be added as required with a small funnel.
Now no more wondering if there is any oil in the housing. I can check it and know in about one minute. Hope this is interesting and helpful for anyone who has a need to pull their SC. Wish I had done this earlier.
Did new brushes in the alternator and O-ring for Crank sending unit, and belt and tensioner and idler pulley at the same time. Attached Thumbnails
I finally did it. I have been thinking about and planning this mod since 2006 when I got my MCS. I had always planned on pulling the SC at 100K and checking the PTO end oil and doing this mod. I was lucky, I should have checked it much earlier. Two weeks ago at about 100K I pulled the SC and found no oil at all in the PTO end. But the gears and needle bearing looked almost perfect, and no metal residue inside the housing. So I did the mod. I have tons of pics (unfortunately via phone camera and not super sharp). I am only posting a few basic pics so you can get the idea.
I drilled and tapped a 1/4 inch pipe hole in the side of the PTO housing at an angle. I inserted a Swagelok brand pipe/tube connector (1/4 tapered pipe x 3/8 inch tube) into the hole. I have recently pulled that connector and inserted a short 1/4 inch brass pipe into the hole and then put a tubing adapter on the end of the nipple. Works better. I positioned the hole as far to the rear of the housing as possible to avoid the large gear but not to cut into the thicker flange of the housing. I angled it so that a dipstick would go to the deepest far corner of the housing. I applied the proper anaerobic sealant and a new water pump and put it all back together.
Once the SC was back on the engine and the car sitting level, I added the specified 40cc of SC oil. After settling, I inserted a dipstick made of a piece of electrical wire w insulation. I knew that 10 1/2 inches was the appropriate distance to insert. I measured and recorded the oil level so that I now have a reference for the correct full amount of oil that should be in the housing. Now it is a quick matter of taking the cap of the dipstick tube and inserting a dipstick the exact distance, pulling it and observing the oil level. Additional oil can easily be added as required with a small funnel.
Now no more wondering if there is any oil in the housing. I can check it and know in about one minute. Hope this is interesting and helpful for anyone who has a need to pull their SC. Wish I had done this earlier.
Did new brushes in the alternator and O-ring for Crank sending unit, and belt and tensioner and idler pulley at the same time. Attached Thumbnails
I drilled and tapped a 1/4 inch pipe hole in the side of the PTO housing at an angle. I inserted a Swagelok brand pipe/tube connector (1/4 tapered pipe x 3/8 inch tube) into the hole. I have recently pulled that connector and inserted a short 1/4 inch brass pipe into the hole and then put a tubing adapter on the end of the nipple. Works better. I positioned the hole as far to the rear of the housing as possible to avoid the large gear but not to cut into the thicker flange of the housing. I angled it so that a dipstick would go to the deepest far corner of the housing. I applied the proper anaerobic sealant and a new water pump and put it all back together.
Once the SC was back on the engine and the car sitting level, I added the specified 40cc of SC oil. After settling, I inserted a dipstick made of a piece of electrical wire w insulation. I knew that 10 1/2 inches was the appropriate distance to insert. I measured and recorded the oil level so that I now have a reference for the correct full amount of oil that should be in the housing. Now it is a quick matter of taking the cap of the dipstick tube and inserting a dipstick the exact distance, pulling it and observing the oil level. Additional oil can easily be added as required with a small funnel.
Now no more wondering if there is any oil in the housing. I can check it and know in about one minute. Hope this is interesting and helpful for anyone who has a need to pull their SC. Wish I had done this earlier.
Did new brushes in the alternator and O-ring for Crank sending unit, and belt and tensioner and idler pulley at the same time. Attached Thumbnails
Maybe this is a stupid question.....but if you pulled the SC off with 100,000 miles on it found that the PTO end was completely out of oil (even if the bearings looked good).....why wouldn't you just get it rebuilt while you had it off? You know you have a leaking seal if there was no oil in it, so are you just going to keep letting it leak and keep topping it off?
Sounds like the "right" fix would have been to just swap it it out for a rebuilt unit...
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 942
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I understand your position. My position is about $500 difference. I can monitor the oil level and add oil in about 2 minutes anytime I feel like it without getting my hands dirty, oil is relatively cheap, figure at the rate I drive now, even if it consumes an entire bottle of oil in 5000 miles, it would take about 33 years to be equal.... ridiculous calculation I know. My SC was in pristine condition regarding the rotors, coatings, front gears, and even rear gears. If it gets to the point where it is leaking too much, my thinking is to abandon the PTO and go electric water pump. And even if I replaced the SC at some point, I'd still install the dipstick. I like knowing the status of things, I'm just a crazy old OCD maintenance kook. haha
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